Comments on: An Inspiring Story http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:45:51 +0000 By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-37703 OMGF Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:33:05 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-37703 Mr. Kluck, Thank you for your candor, although I have to disagree with this sentiment: <blockquote>I believe though that the doctrine of hell admittedly problematic is not our main problem apologetically. The reason I say this is because its Gods universe and he can do what he wants and its abusd to argue with a being who gave you your ability to reason in the first place.</blockquote> I disagree whole-heartedly that because god made us he can treat us in any fashion that he so chooses and/or send us to hell. The act of creating us does not confer some sort of right to not be held morally accountable for one's actions. We would not be lenient on a parent that sent their child to hell, as we should not be lenient with god. When god created us, he brought upon himself a moral obligation to us, which goes unfulfilled when he sends us to hell. Mr. Kluck,
Thank you for your candor, although I have to disagree with this sentiment:

I believe though that the doctrine of hell admittedly problematic is not our main problem apologetically. The reason I say this is because its Gods universe and he can do what he wants and its abusd to argue with a being who gave you your ability to reason in the first place.

I disagree whole-heartedly that because god made us he can treat us in any fashion that he so chooses and/or send us to hell. The act of creating us does not confer some sort of right to not be held morally accountable for one's actions. We would not be lenient on a parent that sent their child to hell, as we should not be lenient with god. When god created us, he brought upon himself a moral obligation to us, which goes unfulfilled when he sends us to hell.

]]> By: Nes http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-37700 Nes Sat, 09 Aug 2008 22:47:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-37700 Bill Kluck: <blockquote>I believe though that the doctrine of hell admittedly problematic is not our main problem apologetically. The reason I say this is because its Gods universe and he can do what he wants and its abusd to argue with a being who gave you your ability to reason in the first place. [sic]</blockquote> Aside from us not arguing <i>with</i> God per se (that would be silly, as I don't think there's anyone there to argue with!), but more arguing against his alleged justness, maybe he <i>likes</i> to argue: Galileo Galilei: <blockquote>I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.</blockquote> Bill Kluck:

I believe though that the doctrine of hell admittedly problematic is not our main problem apologetically. The reason I say this is because its Gods universe and he can do what he wants and its abusd to argue with a being who gave you your ability to reason in the first place. [sic]

Aside from us not arguing with God per se (that would be silly, as I don't think there's anyone there to argue with!), but more arguing against his alleged justness, maybe he likes to argue:

Galileo Galilei:

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

]]> By: Bill Kluck http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-37691 Bill Kluck Sat, 09 Aug 2008 05:52:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-37691 I recently viewed your website for the first time tonight and although a born again christian sympathize with your views on some of the problems with Christianity. I believe though that the doctrine of hell admittedly problematic is not our main problem apologetically. The reason I say this is because its Gods universe and he can do what he wants and its abusd to argue with a being who gave you your ability to reason in the first place. Our biggest problem is the ignorance of the laypeople in regards to the core problems of the faith. One of the core problems we face is that our foundation that being the Genesis narrative is based heavily on the Babylonian, Sumerian and Akadian myths of the day. Specifically, the Enuma Elish and Epic of Gilgamesh. You can learn about this in Tim Callahan's book " Secret Origins of the Bible". The other core problem we have is the inconsistencies and contraditions in the Resurrection account. Was it one woman or several who discovered the tomb? Why does one account have one shadowy figure at the tomb and another account like Luke have two dazzling angels. Did Jesus die at noon or 3 PM. I would like something as important as the Resurrection to be more consistent. Heres what your up against when you confront Christians with a book like " Misquoting Jesus " by Bart Ehrman which contends that there are numerous errors in the New Testament. They get completly freaked out and totally close down to any logical argument. You've got to realize that they're only going to listen to 5% of what you say because they're emotions are going crazy. The second time I talk to my fellow christians about the problems of our faith they are much more receptive. Just remember that Christians are hard wired to be close minded bigots and you will not get much accomplished with them because they usually have no clue to what they're talking about. Good luck and look forward to reading more on your site. William Kluck I recently viewed your website for the first time tonight and although a born again christian sympathize with your views on some of the problems with Christianity. I believe though that the doctrine of hell admittedly problematic is not our main problem apologetically. The reason I say this is because its Gods universe and he can do what he wants and its abusd to argue with a being who gave you your ability to reason in the first place.

Our biggest problem is the ignorance of the laypeople in regards to the core problems of the faith. One of the core problems we face is that our foundation that being the Genesis narrative is based heavily on the Babylonian, Sumerian and Akadian myths of the day. Specifically, the Enuma Elish and Epic of Gilgamesh. You can learn about this in Tim Callahan's book " Secret Origins of the Bible".

The other core problem we have is the inconsistencies and contraditions in the Resurrection account. Was it one woman or several who discovered the tomb? Why does one account have one shadowy figure at the tomb and another account like Luke have two dazzling angels. Did Jesus die at noon or 3 PM. I would like something as important as the Resurrection to be more consistent.

Heres what your up against when you confront Christians with a book like " Misquoting Jesus " by Bart Ehrman which contends that there are numerous errors in the New Testament. They get completly freaked out and totally close down to any logical argument. You've got to realize that they're only going to listen to 5% of what you say because they're emotions are going crazy.

The second time I talk to my fellow christians about the problems of our faith they are much more receptive. Just remember that Christians are hard wired to be close minded bigots and you will not get much accomplished with them because they usually have no clue to what they're talking about.

Good luck and look forward to reading more on your site.

William Kluck

]]> By: Philip Thomas http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-2785 Philip Thomas Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:27:27 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-2785 Yeah, the old "Infinity must contain every possible thing" fallacy. Yeah, the old "Infinity must contain every possible thing" fallacy.

]]> By: speedwell http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-379 speedwell Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:30:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-379 Shawn, that assumes that there are a finite number of things to do, so you need to do them over and over again. That may not be the case, especially if one of the things you do multiple times is "invent new things to do." (grin) Shawn, that assumes that there are a finite number of things to do, so you need to do them over and over again. That may not be the case, especially if one of the things you do multiple times is "invent new things to do." (grin)

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-185 Ebonmuse Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:56:54 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-185 Shawn: Will this do? :) Shawn:

Will this do? :)

]]> By: Shawn Smith http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-182 Shawn Smith Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:46:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-182 Elohimus Maximus, Quite frankly, I'd rather not exist <i>forever</i>, whether in Heaven or Hell. <i>Forever</i> is a <i>very, very, very long</i> time. Because your brain, and therefore your mind, is finite, forever is long enough to do everything you could possibly imagine doing <i>ackerman(googolplex,googolplex)<sup>1</sup></i> times. Existence would be sooooo boring at that point, I would be begging to end it all. <sup>1</sup>A function defined as follows: ack(0,x) = x + 1 ack(x,0) = ack(x - 1, 1) ack(x,y) = ack(x - 1, ack(x, y - 1)) It grows very quickly as the first argument increases. Basically, the first argument selects which operation goes on between 2 and the second argument, from incrementing, to addition, to multiplication, to exponentiation, to super-exponentiation (2 super-exponent 4 is 2<sup>2</sup><sup>2</sup><sup>2</sup> is 2<sup>16</sup> is 65,536), etc. P.S. Adam, how about providing up a preview comment button? Elohimus Maximus,

Quite frankly, I'd rather not exist forever, whether in Heaven or Hell. Forever is a very, very, very long time. Because your brain, and therefore your mind, is finite, forever is long enough to do everything you could possibly imagine doing ackerman(googolplex,googolplex)1 times. Existence would be sooooo boring at that point, I would be begging to end it all.

1A function defined as follows:

ack(0,x) = x + 1
ack(x,0) = ack(x - 1, 1)
ack(x,y) = ack(x - 1, ack(x, y - 1))

It grows very quickly as the first argument increases. Basically, the first argument selects which operation goes on between 2 and the second argument, from incrementing, to addition, to multiplication, to exponentiation, to super-exponentiation (2 super-exponent 4 is 2222 is 216 is 65,536), etc.

P.S.
Adam, how about providing up a preview comment button?

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-177 Ebonmuse Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:30:28 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-177 I was aware that a <a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28898" rel="nofollow">tenth circle</a> was added to Hell in 1998, but I must say it came as a surprise to me that they're up to 13 now. Business must really be booming down there for them to be expanding so rapidly. I was aware that a tenth circle was added to Hell in 1998, but I must say it came as a surprise to me that they're up to 13 now. Business must really be booming down there for them to be expanding so rapidly.

]]> By: Elohimus Maximus http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-176 Elohimus Maximus Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:52:58 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-176 You guys are all heathen sinners...I would be weary of your kind. You guys are in for it!!! When you go to heaven, I will not put in a good word for you, and you will be cast to level 13 outerdarkness for ever! You guys are all heathen sinners...I would be weary of your kind. You guys are in for it!!! When you go to heaven, I will not put in a good word for you, and you will be cast to level 13 outerdarkness for ever!

]]> By: andrea http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-166 andrea Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:32:13 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-inspiring-story.html#comment-166 I think the biggest reason I “deconverted”, is I actually read the Bible. I read voraciously and my dad challenged me to read the Bible. Not exactly a challenge for someone who sits down to read encyclopedias. So I read it and went “Ewww, *that’s* what God has done and has approved of?” Anyone who actually thinks can’t reconcile the Christian God with what he supposedly is: omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. What really got me is that God, being omniscient, had to know that Adam would fall because God made him flawed, that people would sin and that he would have to sacrifice his son to “redeem” mankind. What kind of sacrifice is it when you know you’re going to have to do it and you set up the reasons why you had to do it? Sounds exactly like an abusive parent or husband to me. And, to top it all off, you damn everyone who doesn’t happen to hear about the sacrifice *and* believe it *and* accept your son as their personal “savior”, through no fault of their own. And Adam's essays have addressed all of this:) Being that extraordinarily few Christians have seemed to have read the Bible and even fewer self-described evangelical/born again Christians have, in my experience, this seems to be the one big factor in regaining one’s freedom. I think the biggest reason I “deconverted”, is I actually read the Bible. I read voraciously and my dad challenged me to read the Bible. Not exactly a challenge for someone who sits down to read encyclopedias. So I read it and went “Ewww, *that’s* what God has done and has approved of?” Anyone who actually thinks can’t reconcile the Christian God with what he supposedly is: omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. What really got me is that God, being omniscient, had to know that Adam would fall because God made him flawed, that people would sin and that he would have to sacrifice his son to “redeem” mankind. What kind of sacrifice is it when you know you’re going to have to do it and you set up the reasons why you had to do it? Sounds exactly like an abusive parent or husband to me. And, to top it all off, you damn everyone who doesn’t happen to hear about the sacrifice *and* believe it *and* accept your son as their personal “savior”, through no fault of their own. And Adam's essays have addressed all of this:)

Being that extraordinarily few Christians have seemed to have read the Bible and even fewer self-described evangelical/born again Christians have, in my experience, this seems to be the one big factor in regaining one’s freedom.

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