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	<title>Comments on: Are Evolved Minds Reliable Truth-Finders?</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  8 Sep 2008 07:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37623</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I doubt genetic evolution itself could explain why we can have reliable beliefs, at least not in the detail necessary.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Um, did anyone here suggest otherwise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I doubt genetic evolution itself could explain why we can have reliable beliefs, at least not in the detail necessary.</p></blockquote>
<p>Um, did anyone here suggest otherwise?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37606</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37606</guid>
		<description>Are the genetically-programmed cognitive faculties that confer evolutionary advantage the sames ones we use when arguing scientific theories? I have to wonder if that's really the case. Our genotypes have not changed significantly in the geologically-recent millenia, and yet our belief systems worldwide vary greatly and have been changing drastically over time. We are all very easily prone to biases and reasoning fallacies. I doubt genetic evolution itself could explain why we can have reliable beliefs, at least not in the detail necessary. 

I like to think of the intelligent discourse of a society as a kind of pseudo- quantum computation that will search the possibility space of certain belief systems. Eventually, obsolete belief systems that cannot be salvaged well enough with the combined rationalizations of its advocates will wane and be followed by a different one, that will then be taken up by society for new investigation. This is why mathematics will never change but will only grow, and why our scientific theories have gotten progressively better at explaining the world. (Although you can think of the "society" as the academic community in these cases.) For this collective computation to work, we only have to have a minimal amount of reasoning abilities. We function well enough without being perfect.

Religion slows down the societal computation. (As do other dogmatic ideologies.) It does not ask for our rational belief, and it indoctrinates the young. As Ebonmuse just said, "religious memes ensure their own propagation and transmission by hijacking the human belief machinery, turning it to their own purposes with little regard for whether it is beneficial to their host to do so." If the virus works correctly, then the computation won't. That's why some of us choose to fight it, and promote freethought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are the genetically-programmed cognitive faculties that confer evolutionary advantage the sames ones we use when arguing scientific theories? I have to wonder if that's really the case. Our genotypes have not changed significantly in the geologically-recent millenia, and yet our belief systems worldwide vary greatly and have been changing drastically over time. We are all very easily prone to biases and reasoning fallacies. I doubt genetic evolution itself could explain why we can have reliable beliefs, at least not in the detail necessary. </p>
<p>I like to think of the intelligent discourse of a society as a kind of pseudo- quantum computation that will search the possibility space of certain belief systems. Eventually, obsolete belief systems that cannot be salvaged well enough with the combined rationalizations of its advocates will wane and be followed by a different one, that will then be taken up by society for new investigation. This is why mathematics will never change but will only grow, and why our scientific theories have gotten progressively better at explaining the world. (Although you can think of the "society" as the academic community in these cases.) For this collective computation to work, we only have to have a minimal amount of reasoning abilities. We function well enough without being perfect.</p>
<p>Religion slows down the societal computation. (As do other dogmatic ideologies.) It does not ask for our rational belief, and it indoctrinates the young. As Ebonmuse just said, "religious memes ensure their own propagation and transmission by hijacking the human belief machinery, turning it to their own purposes with little regard for whether it is beneficial to their host to do so." If the virus works correctly, then the computation won't. That's why some of us choose to fight it, and promote freethought.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37565</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37565</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;This is a preposterous charge which I don't believe for one moment. If Karla wants to make such specific accusations, she had better be able to produce evidence supporting them. If she can't, then she should have the common sense to withdraw her claim and apologize for disseminating this defamatory slur against a good man.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Especially if she's also in the UK, whose libel laws practically decide the case in the plaintiff's favor by default.

I'll bet money thatat some point he stated that people who are grossly ignorant of natural history should be disqualified by the science standards, or something to that effect, and that this is what she or the Good Christian sources she got her information from spun into this ridiculous claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>This is a preposterous charge which I don't believe for one moment. If Karla wants to make such specific accusations, she had better be able to produce evidence supporting them. If she can't, then she should have the common sense to withdraw her claim and apologize for disseminating this defamatory slur against a good man.</p></blockquote>
<p>Especially if she's also in the UK, whose libel laws practically decide the case in the plaintiff's favor by default.</p>
<p>I'll bet money thatat some point he stated that people who are grossly ignorant of natural history should be disqualified by the science standards, or something to that effect, and that this is what she or the Good Christian sources she got her information from spun into this ridiculous claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37564</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37564</guid>
		<description>I have a few comments on Karla's reply:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If evolution is generating minds that think more and more truly then why do billions of people ascribe to religion and spiritual worship that atheists claim are illogical practices?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's a valid question, but what I take issue with is Karla's apparent assumption that it's one that applies only to me. My original post was addressing the claim, made by Alvin Plantinga and others, that sensory faculties created by evolution would be unreliable, while sensory faculties created by an omnipotent god would be reliable. Clearly, there is a vast amount of religious confusion and schism in the world - this is just a fact that is not open to dispute. Therefore, even if this claim were a defeater for evolutionary naturalists believing in the reliability of human sense perception, it would be &lt;i&gt;just as much&lt;/i&gt; of a defeater for theists who believe the same. 

But in fact, I think it's less of a problem for me than it is for the theist. As I said in my post, it's most likely that evolution, a process which inherently involves trade-offs, would produce &lt;i&gt;generally&lt;/i&gt; but not &lt;i&gt;perfectly&lt;/i&gt; reliable sense perception. It's to be expected that people would make some cognitive mistakes under this scenario. By contrast, I believe the theist has a far more difficult time explaining why a creator-god would supply people with brains which have such an apparent predisposition toward inventing false gods.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Postmodernism is actually the current ebb and flow of the today’s world which does not ascribe to the knowablity of truth nor the supremacy of science and reason. Why is one more popular than the other if atheists are the more evolved humans?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is no such thing as "more evolved", and atheism is not a genetic trait in any case.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Apparently, Richard Dawkins thinks he is superior to Christians as he has advocated to Oxford University to change their policy to disallow Christians as students because they are not intelligent.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is a preposterous charge which I don't believe for one moment. If Karla wants to make such specific accusations, she had better be able to produce evidence supporting them. If she can't, then she should have the common sense to withdraw her claim and apologize for disseminating this defamatory slur against a good man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a few comments on Karla's reply:</p>
<blockquote><p>If evolution is generating minds that think more and more truly then why do billions of people ascribe to religion and spiritual worship that atheists claim are illogical practices?</p></blockquote>
<p>That's a valid question, but what I take issue with is Karla's apparent assumption that it's one that applies only to me. My original post was addressing the claim, made by Alvin Plantinga and others, that sensory faculties created by evolution would be unreliable, while sensory faculties created by an omnipotent god would be reliable. Clearly, there is a vast amount of religious confusion and schism in the world - this is just a fact that is not open to dispute. Therefore, even if this claim were a defeater for evolutionary naturalists believing in the reliability of human sense perception, it would be <i>just as much</i> of a defeater for theists who believe the same. </p>
<p>But in fact, I think it's less of a problem for me than it is for the theist. As I said in my post, it's most likely that evolution, a process which inherently involves trade-offs, would produce <i>generally</i> but not <i>perfectly</i> reliable sense perception. It's to be expected that people would make some cognitive mistakes under this scenario. By contrast, I believe the theist has a far more difficult time explaining why a creator-god would supply people with brains which have such an apparent predisposition toward inventing false gods.</p>
<blockquote><p>Postmodernism is actually the current ebb and flow of the today’s world which does not ascribe to the knowablity of truth nor the supremacy of science and reason. Why is one more popular than the other if atheists are the more evolved humans?</p></blockquote>
<p>There is no such thing as "more evolved", and atheism is not a genetic trait in any case.</p>
<blockquote><p>Apparently, Richard Dawkins thinks he is superior to Christians as he has advocated to Oxford University to change their policy to disallow Christians as students because they are not intelligent.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a preposterous charge which I don't believe for one moment. If Karla wants to make such specific accusations, she had better be able to produce evidence supporting them. If she can't, then she should have the common sense to withdraw her claim and apologize for disseminating this defamatory slur against a good man.</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37555</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37555</guid>
		<description>Karla,
I read your blog post and all I can say is that you should be more careful in reading Ebon's original post, as you've presented a long, drawn-out strawman argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karla,<br />
I read your blog post and all I can say is that you should be more careful in reading Ebon's original post, as you've presented a long, drawn-out strawman argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Karla</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37552</link>
		<dc:creator>Karla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 17:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-37552</guid>
		<description>Please see my response to this article at www.answerbearer.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please see my response to this article at <a href="http://www.answerbearer.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.answerbearer.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-29789</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-29789</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Moving forward and in general, it would seem that religiosity is positively correlated with societal pro-survivabiity (pro tanto,thus far in the continuum).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I'm sure that people in the dark ages would agree with you whole-heartedly.
&lt;blockquote&gt;We started with primitive pantheism, then to polytheism, then monotheism, with judeo-Christian monotheism thus far having won out in the 'sociallydarwinistic' evolutionary race.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And, we've seen the most advances after the Enlightenment (which pulled the monotheistics out of the dark ages) and the rise of ever more secular governments, organizations, and people.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Who knows, if China really does become the new Rome and economically and militarily defeats the west and if China remains atheistic then I suppose we can logically say atheism is a superior survival multiplier could we not?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No, that would not necessarily follow.
&lt;blockquote&gt;But this one child policy is very rational,and isnt China's atheism(eliminatinmg the opiate of the masses, and eliminating the superstitious and unscientific'ness! of religion) also rational?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No, it is not rational.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Moving forward and in general, it would seem that religiosity is positively correlated with societal pro-survivabiity (pro tanto,thus far in the continuum).</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm sure that people in the dark ages would agree with you whole-heartedly.</p>
<blockquote><p>We started with primitive pantheism, then to polytheism, then monotheism, with judeo-Christian monotheism thus far having won out in the 'sociallydarwinistic' evolutionary race.</p></blockquote>
<p>And, we've seen the most advances after the Enlightenment (which pulled the monotheistics out of the dark ages) and the rise of ever more secular governments, organizations, and people.</p>
<blockquote><p>Who knows, if China really does become the new Rome and economically and militarily defeats the west and if China remains atheistic then I suppose we can logically say atheism is a superior survival multiplier could we not?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, that would not necessarily follow.</p>
<blockquote><p>But this one child policy is very rational,and isnt China's atheism(eliminatinmg the opiate of the masses, and eliminating the superstitious and unscientific'ness! of religion) also rational?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, it is not rational.</p>
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		<title>By: theistscientist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-29762</link>
		<dc:creator>theistscientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-29762</guid>
		<description>thank you all, interesting&#62; learned something new. Of course the religion-survival link could also be because the link is true. If the patient is never told they were given the placebo vs. the real drug in a study, and the patient is healed, how does the patient know what to beleive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thank you all, interesting&gt; learned something new. Of course the religion-survival link could also be because the link is true. If the patient is never told they were given the placebo vs. the real drug in a study, and the patient is healed, how does the patient know what to beleive?</p>
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		<title>By: theistscientist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-29738</link>
		<dc:creator>theistscientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you Mr. Ipetrich, you have taught me somehting new, I will go and study up on Plato's Republic and then I will be back to discuss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Mr. Ipetrich, you have taught me somehting new, I will go and study up on Plato's Republic and then I will be back to discuss.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html#comment-29726</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The idea of a religion-survival link strongly implies the royal-lie theory of religion, first stated by Plato in his &lt;i&gt;Republic&lt;/i&gt; nearly 2400 years ago.

I think that if one seriously believes that, then one ought to consider inventing a religion for that purpose and not make excuses for existing religions. Yes, inventing, as Plato had done. Plato's Royal Lie was to be the official religion of his Republic, and his society's religion was to be banned as full of bad examples like heroes lamenting and gods laughing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea of a religion-survival link strongly implies the royal-lie theory of religion, first stated by Plato in his <i>Republic</i> nearly 2400 years ago.</p>
<p>I think that if one seriously believes that, then one ought to consider inventing a religion for that purpose and not make excuses for existing religions. Yes, inventing, as Plato had done. Plato's Royal Lie was to be the official religion of his Republic, and his society's religion was to be banned as full of bad examples like heroes lamenting and gods laughing.</p>
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