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	<title>Comments on: On Presuppositions</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri,  5 Sep 2008 17:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 11:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-225</guid>
		<description>Another note: I actually meant to say economic status (ES) where I said socio-economic status (SES) above. SES is usually a combined variable that often includes factors such as education; the definition can vary depending on what variables the researcher includes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another note: I actually meant to say economic status (ES) where I said socio-economic status (SES) above. SES is usually a combined variable that often includes factors such as education; the definition can vary depending on what variables the researcher includes.</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-222</guid>
		<description>Note: In the above example I just cited, the people grading the essays did not know about any attractiveness ratings, and were not aware that author's attractiveness was being studied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note: In the above example I just cited, the people grading the essays did not know about any attractiveness ratings, and were not aware that author's attractiveness was being studied.</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-221</guid>
		<description>Re: False positive diagnoses of schizophrenia. This partly reflects the lack of good tests for schizophrenia, including lack of neuroscientific tests now used. Also, even back when that study was done, it appears that the doctors and nurses did not spend much time observing the pseudopatients. Nevertheless, this was certainly an eye-opening study.

Re: Interpretation of reaction time results. Reaction time is one of the most ambiguous measures (and among the most frequently used) in psychology (that's not just my opinion, but also that of R. D. Luce in regard ot reaction time results generally). It is not clear, for example, whether what was shown was indicative of prejudice, or knowledge of prejudice, self-awareness of being tested for prejudice (which is very obvious--in fact, far too obvious...this artifact alone brings the interpretation of the results into doubt). It is necessary to obtain other measures in conjunction with reaction time in order to get greater confidence that what is being measured truly is what is intended to be measured. (This is in addition to having a large number of different conditions, which help to rule out alternative explanations...but alas this becomes increasingly and often prohibitively expensive). In addition, other tasks should be used to show that the effect is not specific to the type of task in question. (Other ways to ensure generalizability of the results: test different age groups, test different populations (i.e., test people in different countries).

Re: Height of CEO's. The irrational belief that taller people make better leaders may indeed be a factor here. But there are a bunch or intercorrelated factors here, eg., height is correlated with socio-economic status (SES); SES is correlated with education; one's SES is associated with one's parents' SES; height is correlated with parents' height; SES is correlated with nutrition; nutrition is correlated with height; education is correlated with nutrition; education is correlated with IQ...and there's probably more I'm leaving out. I'm not sure the research has been done to sort out the roles of all of these factors determining CEO's heights. Confidence and dominant style of social interaction might be related to height insofar as playground, high school, and college socialization may establish this pattern. Yet another factor to be considered is women's preference for taller males, which has been shown in 37 out of 37 cultures studied. (Many opportunities for preferential treatment could be affected by this bias). 

Some of our biases are truly staggering; by my above cautions regarding methodology I don't mean to downplay the biases or deny that they could exist, of course. For example, people will give a higher grade to an essay attributed to an author judged to be good-looking vs one judged to be not good-looking. (The same essay is assigned to different groups, with a picture of the author on the front. E.g., an essay would be assigned with a good-looking author's picture to one group, and the same essay would be assigned with a not-good-looking author's picture. The groups then were given a set of criteria and were asked to grade the essays accordingly. They were not asked to consider anything else such as the author's appearance; appearance wasn't mentioned. Other judges had previously judged the pictures independently of the essays to obtain the "attractiveness" ratings). If memory serves me correctly, there was actually a 10% difference in the average marks, with the advantage going to the good-looking authors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: False positive diagnoses of schizophrenia. This partly reflects the lack of good tests for schizophrenia, including lack of neuroscientific tests now used. Also, even back when that study was done, it appears that the doctors and nurses did not spend much time observing the pseudopatients. Nevertheless, this was certainly an eye-opening study.</p>
<p>Re: Interpretation of reaction time results. Reaction time is one of the most ambiguous measures (and among the most frequently used) in psychology (that's not just my opinion, but also that of R. D. Luce in regard ot reaction time results generally). It is not clear, for example, whether what was shown was indicative of prejudice, or knowledge of prejudice, self-awareness of being tested for prejudice (which is very obvious--in fact, far too obvious...this artifact alone brings the interpretation of the results into doubt). It is necessary to obtain other measures in conjunction with reaction time in order to get greater confidence that what is being measured truly is what is intended to be measured. (This is in addition to having a large number of different conditions, which help to rule out alternative explanations...but alas this becomes increasingly and often prohibitively expensive). In addition, other tasks should be used to show that the effect is not specific to the type of task in question. (Other ways to ensure generalizability of the results: test different age groups, test different populations (i.e., test people in different countries).</p>
<p>Re: Height of CEO's. The irrational belief that taller people make better leaders may indeed be a factor here. But there are a bunch or intercorrelated factors here, eg., height is correlated with socio-economic status (SES); SES is correlated with education; one's SES is associated with one's parents' SES; height is correlated with parents' height; SES is correlated with nutrition; nutrition is correlated with height; education is correlated with nutrition; education is correlated with IQ...and there's probably more I'm leaving out. I'm not sure the research has been done to sort out the roles of all of these factors determining CEO's heights. Confidence and dominant style of social interaction might be related to height insofar as playground, high school, and college socialization may establish this pattern. Yet another factor to be considered is women's preference for taller males, which has been shown in 37 out of 37 cultures studied. (Many opportunities for preferential treatment could be affected by this bias). </p>
<p>Some of our biases are truly staggering; by my above cautions regarding methodology I don't mean to downplay the biases or deny that they could exist, of course. For example, people will give a higher grade to an essay attributed to an author judged to be good-looking vs one judged to be not good-looking. (The same essay is assigned to different groups, with a picture of the author on the front. E.g., an essay would be assigned with a good-looking author's picture to one group, and the same essay would be assigned with a not-good-looking author's picture. The groups then were given a set of criteria and were asked to grade the essays accordingly. They were not asked to consider anything else such as the author's appearance; appearance wasn't mentioned. Other judges had previously judged the pictures independently of the essays to obtain the "attractiveness" ratings). If memory serves me correctly, there was actually a 10% difference in the average marks, with the advantage going to the good-looking authors.</p>
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		<title>By: ebohlman</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>ebohlman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 22:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-220</guid>
		<description>In his classic The Nature of Prejudice, Gordon Allport described certain nouns and adjectives as “labels of primary potency"; basically, such a label is capable of hijacking most people’s cognitive processes, causing them to view just about every aspect of the person in terms of the label. This is a case of the phenomenon called “group attribution error” (GAE); we tend to explain the behavior of a member of a group that we don’t belong to, particularly if it’s one we’re “distant” from, in terms of relatively fixed characteristics of the group itself, whereas we’re more likely to explain the behavior of members of our own group in terms of individual or circumstantial factors. A related cognitive bias is the “assumption of outgroup homogeneity” in which members of a “distant” group are treated as some sort of Borg-like collective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In his classic The Nature of Prejudice, Gordon Allport described certain nouns and adjectives as “labels of primary potency"; basically, such a label is capable of hijacking most people’s cognitive processes, causing them to view just about every aspect of the person in terms of the label. This is a case of the phenomenon called “group attribution error” (GAE); we tend to explain the behavior of a member of a group that we don’t belong to, particularly if it’s one we’re “distant” from, in terms of relatively fixed characteristics of the group itself, whereas we’re more likely to explain the behavior of members of our own group in terms of individual or circumstantial factors. A related cognitive bias is the “assumption of outgroup homogeneity” in which members of a “distant” group are treated as some sort of Borg-like collective.</p>
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		<title>By: BlackWizardMagus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>BlackWizardMagus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 19:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-214</guid>
		<description>But the question is inherently going to have that issue; they specifically have you do the "common" associations, then do the opposite (I thought, anyway). Well, this is naturally going to first bias you to the common association, and screw up your reactions because you, in part at least, asociating "white" with "left", not with "America". I guess it's like a middle step that might be the real player. I wouldn't be surprised if there was still some bias, but I think that it's going to be less clear overall for technical reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the question is inherently going to have that issue; they specifically have you do the "common" associations, then do the opposite (I thought, anyway). Well, this is naturally going to first bias you to the common association, and screw up your reactions because you, in part at least, asociating "white" with "left", not with "America". I guess it's like a middle step that might be the real player. I wouldn't be surprised if there was still some bias, but I think that it's going to be less clear overall for technical reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 05:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-212</guid>
		<description>I checked on the IAT website, and the order of presentation does seem to be randomized. Sometimes a category will be on the left, sometimes on the right, and the order in which items are presented also varies each time a new test is started.

The point as I understand it is, if people were just repeating previously learned patterns, then why would the results in general skew so dramatically toward a particular set of associations? Since the category order is randomized, if that was the error people were making, the associations should be randomly distributed. But they're not. There is a consistent association, across many test-takers, between certain items and categories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I checked on the IAT website, and the order of presentation does seem to be randomized. Sometimes a category will be on the left, sometimes on the right, and the order in which items are presented also varies each time a new test is started.</p>
<p>The point as I understand it is, if people were just repeating previously learned patterns, then why would the results in general skew so dramatically toward a particular set of associations? Since the category order is randomized, if that was the error people were making, the associations should be randomly distributed. But they're not. There is a consistent association, across many test-takers, between certain items and categories.</p>
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		<title>By: BlackWizardMagus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>BlackWizardMagus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-209</guid>
		<description>As well, I took the Native American one, and I got screwed up because it was white on the left, NA on the right. Then it was domestic names on the right, and foriegn on the left. Then the added them together on the same sides, but then switched the W and NA, so that after constantly putting whites an white city names on the left, I was suddenly having to reverse. Quite frankly, the test led me to associate whites with white cities with the left side, then switched it and said it was my fault. I think that these tests are looking for something so small and specific that it's impossible to find; no test is ever perfect, and the margin of error is too small to allow for mistakes and still be conclusive. We definately do have unconcious biases, but I think this test is a bad measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As well, I took the Native American one, and I got screwed up because it was white on the left, NA on the right. Then it was domestic names on the right, and foriegn on the left. Then the added them together on the same sides, but then switched the W and NA, so that after constantly putting whites an white city names on the left, I was suddenly having to reverse. Quite frankly, the test led me to associate whites with white cities with the left side, then switched it and said it was my fault. I think that these tests are looking for something so small and specific that it's impossible to find; no test is ever perfect, and the margin of error is too small to allow for mistakes and still be conclusive. We definately do have unconcious biases, but I think this test is a bad measure.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander P</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 05:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-208</guid>
		<description>I've seen those association tests and I'm skeptical of their usefullness. Is it a reasonable conclusion that people are still harboring biases in a sub-conscious level? I see one possible source of error. When I take the first test, I automatically establish the pattern of yes and no in my mind such as "yes yes no no no" which endure in my memory. Then with the next test which has the same word order but different associatied terms. I'm still remembering the my response pattern of the previous test so it takes me a few moments to make the switch from the previous association to the next association. Once I've made that mental switch, I can proceed normally. 

I don't think your conclusions are valid at all, it's just establishing a memorized rote which a person follows. I'd be more impressed if the word order were actually randomized and isn't influenced by the memory of the previous test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've seen those association tests and I'm skeptical of their usefullness. Is it a reasonable conclusion that people are still harboring biases in a sub-conscious level? I see one possible source of error. When I take the first test, I automatically establish the pattern of yes and no in my mind such as "yes yes no no no" which endure in my memory. Then with the next test which has the same word order but different associatied terms. I'm still remembering the my response pattern of the previous test so it takes me a few moments to make the switch from the previous association to the next association. Once I've made that mental switch, I can proceed normally. </p>
<p>I don't think your conclusions are valid at all, it's just establishing a memorized rote which a person follows. I'd be more impressed if the word order were actually randomized and isn't influenced by the memory of the previous test.</p>
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		<title>By: Reluctant Atheist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>Reluctant Atheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 04:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-206</guid>
		<description>I rather like Alex's thought about reading left to right. 
The 1 part I balk at, is when I looked at the 'European-American = Good, African-American = bad," I took a few milliseconds (or whatever amount of time) to think to myself, "Neither are bad."
It's this either/or thing. People think in terms of absolutes: it's either all good, or all bad. Life ain't like that. 
I took 1 of those 'Racial' tests, where the length of time is measured, you click on the left for identifying Asians, on the right for Whites, &#38; they change it around several times (Right for asians, left for whites, reversed, reversed again, etc).
All it proved is that I have trouble switching columns. That's it. I made a LOT of mistakes, on both sides, to the point where my results were inconclusive. 
You can't encapsulate how a person is based on some 5 minute test that moves the goalposts. 
I tend to stop &#38; &lt;b&gt; think&lt;/b&gt; before I answer questions.
Maybe that's just me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I rather like Alex's thought about reading left to right.<br />
The 1 part I balk at, is when I looked at the 'European-American = Good, African-American = bad," I took a few milliseconds (or whatever amount of time) to think to myself, "Neither are bad."<br />
It's this either/or thing. People think in terms of absolutes: it's either all good, or all bad. Life ain't like that.<br />
I took 1 of those 'Racial' tests, where the length of time is measured, you click on the left for identifying Asians, on the right for Whites, &amp; they change it around several times (Right for asians, left for whites, reversed, reversed again, etc).<br />
All it proved is that I have trouble switching columns. That's it. I made a LOT of mistakes, on both sides, to the point where my results were inconclusive.<br />
You can't encapsulate how a person is based on some 5 minute test that moves the goalposts.<br />
I tend to stop &amp; <b> think</b> before I answer questions.<br />
Maybe that's just me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-204</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 02:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/on-presuppositions.html#comment-204</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In short, people who are not racist may hesitate to answer not because they are unconsciously prejudiced, but because unconsciously they want to take care that their answers won't be perceived as racist.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;I wonder if part of the problem might be the learned habit of reading left to right and a tendency to think of these words in a certain order ("male and female" being less phonetically awkward than "female and male").&lt;/blockquote&gt;

These are both interesting suggestions to explain these results - I don't actually know whether the word order is reversed from test to test, though it certainly should be, to exclude that as a possible source of error. Even if not, though, one might argue that viewing "male and female" as more natural than "female and male" may itself be a type of that subtle subconscious bias this study was designed to measure.

As BlackWizardMagus pointed out, it's an open question whether this phenomenon actually affects how people treat each other consciously. But there's no question that subtle factors can affect our decisions in ways we're not explicitly aware of. Gladwell points out in the same chapter of &lt;i&gt;Blink&lt;/i&gt; that 58% of CEOs are six feet tall or more, while only 15% of men in general are that tall. Even more striking, only 4% of men are six foot two or taller, but among CEOs, it's almost one-third. Clearly there is a subconscious bias here (an irrational belief that tall people make better leaders) that is affecting conscious decision-making in a strikingly obvious way. We don't yet know if implicit racial or gender bias affects decisions in a similar fashion, but it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In short, people who are not racist may hesitate to answer not because they are unconsciously prejudiced, but because unconsciously they want to take care that their answers won't be perceived as racist.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>I wonder if part of the problem might be the learned habit of reading left to right and a tendency to think of these words in a certain order ("male and female" being less phonetically awkward than "female and male").</p></blockquote>
<p>These are both interesting suggestions to explain these results - I don't actually know whether the word order is reversed from test to test, though it certainly should be, to exclude that as a possible source of error. Even if not, though, one might argue that viewing "male and female" as more natural than "female and male" may itself be a type of that subtle subconscious bias this study was designed to measure.</p>
<p>As BlackWizardMagus pointed out, it's an open question whether this phenomenon actually affects how people treat each other consciously. But there's no question that subtle factors can affect our decisions in ways we're not explicitly aware of. Gladwell points out in the same chapter of <i>Blink</i> that 58% of CEOs are six feet tall or more, while only 15% of men in general are that tall. Even more striking, only 4% of men are six foot two or taller, but among CEOs, it's almost one-third. Clearly there is a subconscious bias here (an irrational belief that tall people make better leaders) that is affecting conscious decision-making in a strikingly obvious way. We don't yet know if implicit racial or gender bias affects decisions in a similar fashion, but it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility.</p>
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