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Welcome to Daylight Atheism

Welcome, one and all, to Daylight Atheism! This will be the official weblog and annex of my other website, Ebon Musings, and will contain discussion threads for the articles posted there as well as original essays and writings.

In this inaugural post, it seems fitting to explain what led to the creation of this site. For the longest time I resisted the temptation to create a weblog, fearing it would demand of me a degree of productivity I did not think myself able to supply. However, there were three factors that ultimately persuaded me to change my mind. The first one was the steady accumulation of subjects that I wanted to comment on, but that were either too topical or too brief to merit a full-length essay on Ebon Musings.

The second factor, more important, has to do with the climate in which we live. Over the past several years, I have observed to my dismay the forces of militant religious fundamentalism gaining in strength, both in my home country, the United States of America, and worldwide. This ominous development, driven by those who are dedicated enemies of all the progress and enlightenment that has been achieved over the past several centuries, threatens the liberty and happiness of all people everywhere. As a result, I have been compelled to grow more involved in political causes to help oppose it, and to defend the human rights that once more need defending. This process of awakening led to my writing the essay "Unapologetic", but did not stop there. We need as many voices as possible calling attention to the evil of the religious right and shining the light of scrutiny on their true goals. Only by doing so can we hope to stop them, and I hope to play some small part in that.

The final motivating factor is the fact that there are not nearly as many good atheist weblogs as there should be. There are many blogs written by atheists, but relatively few that are about atheism, relatively few that are well-written and address the subject frequently and knowledgeably. Granted, there are some, and I read most of these regularly; but the Internet is a wonderful invention - a truly global and democratic forum for speech where we can support each other, exchange our ideas, disseminate our message and organize for activism - and we atheists need as strong a presence on it as possible, paralleling the need for a strong atheist voice in public discourse generally. Considering our numbers, there are not nearly as many of us speaking out as there should be, and I intend to do what I can to counteract that trend. I neither expect nor desire to become an atheist leader in any sense, but I hope to contribute to a groundswell of freethought which I already see emerging, and perhaps even to reach a few individuals who have begun to question their religious beliefs but have not yet heard a message that would give them the courage to walk away.

Now more than ever, as the power of the religious right waxes and grows, society needs our presence, needs our message. We need to present the strong, clear light of atheism as a positive and desirable alternative to the murky darkness of religious intolerance and superstition. I know that there are many people of conscience who would be our allies if they understood who we truly are and what we want; I know, furthermore, that there are many others who are struggling with doubt, unaware that there are others who feel the same way as they do and that they are not alone. As with Ebon Musings, if I can reach and speak to even one person (a goal I can happily say I have achieved many times over with my other site), I will be well-satisfied.

For the present, I will continue to write new articles for Ebon Musings, and I will update this site as time permits. I will aim for an initial update schedule of at least twice per week, more often as I become accustomed to writing for this weblog, less often as other obligations take me away.

February 10, 2006, 11:20 pm • Posted in: The FoyerCommentOptions Bookmark/Share This

65 Comments

Let me be the first to express my support for this project. It will be interesting to see how this develops. I hope your blog will grow to attract many readers from every viewpoint.

You have my support as well - I hope you enjoy blogging too :)

I'd only have one word of warning, and that is that Atheism should never be a club, group or collective with any kind of political or even philosophical voice. Because of course then anyone who disagrees with that viewpoint will be excluded. So let's steer clear of 'An Atheist should do x and believe y because...'

Oh and on a lighter note, consider implementing Gravatars on the blog too!

Adam,
Good choice, great name. Enjoy the blogging, and I'll be back often to read!

You're right about there not being enough quality websites out there. Most of what I've seen is childish ranting, expressing their anger towards God for lack of a better dummy.

Thanks for Email about your blog Adam. I have it bookmarked and look forward to reading and contributing as time allows. I really enjoy your writing on Ebon Musings.

Good luck with the blog!

-Bill

Thank you, all! I'm glad to see every one of you here, and I'll do my best to make this blog worth your while to read. I've got a backlog of posts to put up already, so let's release a few of them and get this show on the road...

Adam,

Great work. I look forward to reading your blog.

I particularly enjoyed the articles on your site about the morality of atheists. Given that many in the general public, especially in the U.S., still believe that religion is required for morality, it is important to emphasize that this is most definitely not the case. One need only list to any sane individual the atrocities in the Old and New Testaments, and the Quran, to show that the world's predominant religions contain little in the way of a viable basis for morality and, indeed, that they contain great immorality. This seems to me the most common prejudice against atheists: That they lack morality because they lack religion.

Maybe it might be useful to have a concise summary of the usual arguments against atheism, perhaps about a page in length, with links for each topic going to more indepth discussions, such as to those on ebon musings.

All the best,

Archi Medes

Adam,
I am very glad that you are willing to carry the torch of truth and reason in a time when society seems determined to regress back to the dark ages. Your essay "Unapologetic" speaks volumes and should be required reading for all. I certainly will be recommending it to my children.
The recent controversy concerning the mass violence associated with the publishing of religious cartoons is just one more indication that everything you say is extremely accurate. I just hope that it is not too late, or too futile to do anything. The closet seems safe to me and peering outside the cracked door, I have to struggle with myself to prevent screaming, ranting and raving at the obviously duped masses. Fortunately for me, there are those such as you who have a bright mind and a fluent pen to lead the way. I will continue studying, learning and reading from you as well as getting involved. In fact, I will join the American Atheist Society this week and begin to be as active as I can in preventing the loss of civil and personal freedoms to those that are blind at best or manipulative as I suspect.

I might have posted this twice as I think made some mistake or other during registration.

Adam,
Thank you for notifying me of this site. I too am concerned at the resurgence of ignorance and cruelty in the form of religious fundamentalism. Bronowski saw it coming as long ago as the sixties, and wrote about the extreme danger of embracing certainty without reason, about the futility of addressing complex ethical issues by dipping into what he called a "rag-bag of morals based on past beliefs." Religion is not the only destructive force in the society I live in. Each day I see an increasing number of memetic stupidities directing everyday behaviour patterns. Cruelty and indifference to suffering through blind obedience to competitive monetarism is one, but there are many more. The utterly ridiculous legitimacy given to nonsense such as fortune telling, demons, angels and so on would have been laughed out of existence when I was a kid. Collectively, we have regressed, no doubt about it. These notions all have this property of spurious certainty, of unquestioning adherence to some principle, either stated or implicit. Little wonder then, that they are all so readily assimilated by the religious right.

I am not particularly good at highly consistent philosophical debate, but I am very keen to play a part, at least locally, in getting rid of all this mumbo-jumbo, preferably without the use of a blunt instrument, the use of which at times seems a most attractive course.

Adam,

Good luck on this new adventure. I will check in often. I agree we can no longer be passive in confronting the evangelical attacks on individual freedom. You have my complete support.

Ah, even more goodies to read. Love the blog, love the intial site too.

Here's to *not* becoming Father Neimoller's last one to speak.

Andrea

Adam,

Congratulations on the launch of your new weblog. I have used Ebon Musings as a valuable resource for a few years now and enjoy your thoughtful and informative essays and well considered approach to atheism that is free from the vitriol one can encounter at many other atheist sites. I'm sure you will continue with this site in your usual thoughtful and courteous manner.

Good Blogging! Mike.

Hearty congratulations on the launch of daylightatheism --- typically elegant writing and inspiring thoughts as ever! I'm very glad to have seen, and enjoyed so thoroughly and deeply, your new venture. I look forward to coming back often!

I found your blog tonight and it was like a breath of fresh air (and fresh reason).

Please keep up the fine blogging, I will be reading from now on!

Scott F

Thank you sir,
It was more than a year ago that I stambled on your site(ebonmusings.org) and read on your essays, now "reflections on th milky way etc.. " that I realized and was convinced that I am an atheist. Now I am a proud atheist and fully agree with all you says. Keep up the good work.

I've called myself a humanist for a couple of years now, although this is what I unknowingly was for a while beforehand.

I congratulate you on your simple, well-reasoned arguments and thorough research. I hope to use your website and blog as a resource to help me argue convincingly against the (thankfully moderate) Christians I regularly encounter.

Thank you!

Greetings to all of you nonbelivers.
I wuold like to make a killer statement to all of you:
If a beliver bugs you with his "god stuff", just tell him that:

1) You will only speak to his god in person, or to a person authorized to speak of god, and who has a documnt (which must be signed by goh himsel) to prove it.
2) You will only convert if this so called "god" shows you a miracle, which cannot be explained by the probability theory or other physical laws, and more people would witness it.

This should be enough for everyone who says, that there were no dinosaurs, and world was made in seven days...

P.S. Great job on doing this site. First non-satanic atheist site i'v ever seen. Cheers.

How can anyone be a Satanist AND an atheist?

"...society needs our presence, needs our message. We need to present the strong, clear light of atheism as a positive and desirable alternative to the murky darkness of religious intolerance and superstition."

I'm sorry how does society need your message? Surely the message of an atheist can never be positive: "There is no God. Why bother?"

Unfortunately the message of many religions has been twisted by politicians and extremists, yet the real message that they deliver IS a positive and desirable one that teaches tolerance. If you were to look further than the image the media gives them then I would hope you would find this to be true.

And to whoever wrote:

"1) You will only speak to his god in person, or to a person authorized to speak of god, and who has a documnt (which must be signed by goh himsel) to prove it.
2) You will only convert if this so called "god" shows you a miracle, which cannot be explained by the probability theory or other physical laws, and more people would witness it."

I think you are missing a little something required within all religion, including atheism. Faith.

I'm sorry how does society need your message? Surely the message of an atheist can never be positive: "There is no God. Why bother?"

How about, "This is your only life, and the only life for those around you. Cherish it, enjoy it, and make the world even better for those who come next," or, "You may not have any great purpose behind your life, but this gives you the freedom to create your own," or, one of my favorites, "Smile! There is no Hell."

I think you are missing a little something required within all religion, including atheism. Faith.

1) Unless you use one of the looser definitions of "religion" (which would probably include, for example, book clubs), atheism isn't a religion. Atheism is merely a lack of belief in deities. Come to think of it, I don't even think it would qualify under a loose definition, since religions are generally defined as a set of beliefs. I don't actively believe, for example, that there are no deities, I merely reject the claims of others that believe there are.

2) There is no faith required in atheism. Atheism isn't (or, at least, shouldn't be, though I'm sure some atheists get there this way as well) faith/belief that there are no deities, but, as I stated above, just the rejection of the claims of those who posit deities. I also don't think that faith is a virtue, like so many religious seem to. Why should I believe something without any good and credible evidence for it?

Hello Nick,

I'm sorry how does society need your message? Surely the message of an atheist can never be positive: "There is no God. Why bother?"

I assure you that you are mistaken. Atheism is a positive, hopeful and life-affirming message: it tells us that we are in charge of our own destiny, that this life is our one chance and so we had better make the most of it and live it to the fullest, and that living morally consists of being kind toward our fellow human beings and not flattering the arbitrary whims of jealous, petulant gods. For more on the positive message of atheism, I suggest my essays "Life Without Superstition" here on Daylight Atheism, and the longer "Life of Wonder" on Ebon Musings.

Unfortunately the message of many religions has been twisted by politicians and extremists, yet the real message that they deliver IS a positive and desirable one that teaches tolerance.

The "real" message? According to whom? Even a glance at history would show you that people have been fighting, killing, dying, oppressing and enslaving each other by the millions for millennia, all because they had different religious beliefs. And this faith-based violence is not some derangement of religion that came out of nowhere: most holy books and scriptures contain verses explicitly endorsing such activities. You cannot decide what "true" religion is by arbitrarily disregarding all the parts of each religion that run contrary to what you believe.

I think you are missing a little something required within all religion, including atheism. Faith.

On the contrary: I don't "miss" faith, I have scrutinized the concept and decided it deserves to be rejected. Faith is an illogical and unsupportable belief in the absence of evidence, and no one should ever let faith alone be the basis for any of their beliefs or actions. I reject the assumption that faith is an intrinsic good, which most religious people make without questioning. Faith is not an intrinsic good. At best it is pointless, and at worst it is dangerous. That is why I am an atheist, a position which, unlike all religions, asks us to believe nothing but what the facts support.

Atheism is NOT a faith and requires none. Only if god showed up, or even produced a BONA-FIDE miracle (spare me your blurry image on a taco shell) would it then require faith not to believe in a supernatural being.
BTW - What makes rational inquisitiveness less praiseworthy than belief for belief's sake? In fact, Why is it considered a virtue at all to believe things wihtout evidential support? Riddle me that!

I agree with Dominic Self. I've seen some presumptions about political belief's as if not believing in god means you have to think the OPPOSITE of those who do, on Every issue. Certainly there will be many differences but this attitude just sets up another creed or dogma. And those atheists who make those assumptions are really no better than the theists who insist atheism must be amoral...read that "immoral." You don't have to be a Fundie to be pro-life. I believe in respect for ALL human life from the very beginning to the very end. I consider this philosophy to be for the highest benefit of all of society.

You may begin the verbal assault...3...2...1...now.

Hello Adam,
Read your letter today in "Freethought Today" and have just browsed your web site. Very impressive. I'll be continually checking in here.Thank you for setting it up.
Sincerely,
Madison Arnold FFRF lifer

What I read on your blog is pretty much the same positions and arguments I have heard from other self-proclaimed atheists. Your arguments seem to reflect a shallow understanding of the Chrisitan world view, a strong desire to belittle Christians, to generalize any instance of Christian hypocricy to all who profess the Christian faith, and generally discredit Christianity in any way you can. I sincerely wonder what your real motivation is. Are you envious of those with faith? Do you really believe people will live better and moral lives if Chrisitan influence is diminished?

As a Christian, I pray that you like the Apostle Paul may truly find Christ on your journey to Damascus.

Dick,

I can assure you that Ebonmuse is very well informed about Christianity and has probably spent more time reading the Bible than many Christians.

If you have a particular complaint or diagreement, please voice it as he and others who frequent this website, including a few Christians, will be happy to respond.

All the best, James

ps: I suggest starting here: Let your love be genuine

Hello Dick,

What I read on your blog is pretty much the same positions and arguments I have heard from other self-proclaimed atheists.

I'd certainly hope so. Most of the arguments against religious belief are fairly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about it rationally, and atheists have been pointing these out for quite a long time. The problem isn't that our arguments are incorrect, but that most religious people aren't listening.

Your arguments seem to reflect a shallow understanding of the Chrisitan world view, a strong desire to belittle Christians...

I'm going to stop you right there and ask for some evidence. Unfortunately, like many religious proselytizers, you've chosen to take the low road and try to smear me and my work with insulting generalizations. If you think I display a "shallow understanding" of Christianity, I invite you to point to specific errors I've made regarding it. If you think I "belittle" Christians, I invite you to point to specific examples where you feel I've unfairly maligned individual believers. If you cannot or will not do these things, then I'll consider your accusations motivated solely by personal animus and anger at me.

...generalize any instance of Christian hypocricy to all who profess the Christian faith...

Again, if you think I've ever done this, then let's see you cite some examples.

I sincerely wonder what your real motivation is.

You don't have to wonder. I have numerous posts on this site where I explain in detail what my motivation is: for example, this one, which is prominently linked to in the "Must-Read Posts" section of my sidebar:

Why Do We Care?

or even this one:

Why Daylight Atheism?

Again, you're clearly not very familiar with my writings if you haven't seen any of these, which leads me to believe that you're hurling accusations at random without having first taking the time to find evidence supporting them. I wonder why you choose to act in such an angry and hostile manner toward someone who's a complete stranger to you.

Hello, and thank you for your writings and thoughts. I had been searching for a place on the web to read well written opinions on atheistic/humanistic topics and I was very much delighted to stumble upon your's. I look forward to exploring your essays.
I agree that organized superstition is a major factor standing in the way of true morality and human accomplishment. It would also appear that fundamental religous sects have increased in influence and destrcutiveness over recent years. I would, however, like to suggest that this has created a backlash that seems to have increased the ranks of the unbelievers. This for me would prove to be good news.
To respond to Dick, I have indeed met Paul, through an entire grade school and high school career in catholic instruction. What I have come to realize on my own is that I do not need him, his teachings, nor the church he helped to build in order to consider myself a moral human being. My deep and personal experience with the chritsian worldview is the reason why I refuse to hold it any longer.

Thanks to God you are an atheist!! LMAO

Thanks to God you are an atheist!! LMAO

Thanks to the lack of evidence for God, I am an atheist. Thanks to you and your ilk, I am proud of it.

PS: Isn't the "A" in "LMAO" an "unclean" word? Aren't Christians supposed to avoid those?

Surely he means "ass" as in donkey? Laughing My Donkey Off? I think actually that sounds more unclean...

According to the bibble you can kill people with their jawbones.

Aloha Adam!

I quite agree with the quantity/quality issue and the fact that atheists need to work on their public image. I am also becoming quite a fan of your blog.

I am a broadcaster with 40 years on the air in Maui County and an atheist since I was 12 years old. (Long story) I am particularly interested in your comments about how we can best put the media to use in an effort to prevent the possibility of another Dark Ages.

At your service.

LD

Just writing to let you know how much I appreciate the depth and breadth of thought you bring to this project. I agree with you that

"We need as many voices as possible calling attention to the evil of the religious right and shining the light of scrutiny on their true goals. Only by doing so can we hope to stop them, and I hope to play some small part in that."

I'm with you. The emphasis of my secular humanism (which I prefer over "atheism") is on activism and outreach. It's great to connect with like-minded others, but once we've found each other, when do we do with our intelligence and numbers? What would it take to elect openly secular people to high national office? What would it take to reduce the esteem in which religion is held (three of 10 Republican candidates said they believed in the truth of Genesis)? What would it take to get John Stossel and ABC to do one hour on "the new humanism"? And don't get me started on the dangers of Islam.

BTW, I've tagged your site...for info., please visit mine and see the post on "Meme-ery."

shalom,

Alan

Ebonmuse and other atheists,
I am a Christian and clearly see why it is so easy to target "Christians", many, like all other humanoids (lol), tend to shoot off with their mouths without first checking with their heart. As you are undoubtedly aware Christians are called to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. Some fail at loving the Lord, others fail at loving their neighbor while others fail at both.

Ashamedly I must readily admit I fail at loving the Lord or my neighbor at times too but that is where grace comes in. There are several postings on this page in regards to faith but none that I could on grace. Calvary does point to forgiveness but just as importantly it reveals love and grace! Without His grace I would not have spent 2 seconds on this site but because of His everlasting grace I'm drawn here. Anyway, enough rambling...when a person who professes to be a Christian attacks you or others please keep in mind they have lost the vision/call. Not all Christians act in this matter.

Grace to you!
Rob

I am Christian, and your message seems to be positive. I don't think you can go wrong with trying to be a good person and spreading awareness, but some of the comments on this site are so hateful and mocking towards people who believe in God, or to God. If you really care about people and freedom of thought why does it matter what a person believes? Can't a person who is a Christian still be a half way intelligent and a good person. Just becasue someone believes in something that you don't doens't mean they are bad or stupid. It seems like people on this website feel as though they are persecuted in some way becasue of thier beliefs, but it goes both ways. Poeple who live in China get abused and severely tourtured for thier religious beliefs. You think it is religion that causes bad things to happen, but it is not. Take away all religion and belief in God and people will still do horrible things to each other. This is why I have to believe in God. I have to believe that there is something somewhere better than us.

Camile,
The author has addressed your question. Please read this for an answer.

Can't a person who is a Christian still be a half way intelligent and a good person. Just becasue someone believes in something that you don't doens't mean they are bad or stupid.

You're right, there are many good and intelligent people who have religious beliefs. However they must be switching their brains off when it comes to religion, because as you'll see from these links, theism doesn't make much sense if you really think about it.

I think few of us would have any problem with other people's religions if they kept themselves to themselves. However, they don't tend to. You might not notice it much when you're a member of the local majority religion, but as atheists we are acutely aware of it. Freedom of belief is a human right, but there's a tendency for the religious to think it applies only to their beliefs, especially when they're in the majority. The fact is that especially in America, atheists are discriminated against by the religious authorities.

However, I think those who suffer most from religion are often the believers themselves. Surely stories like this one are tragic to hear whatever your beliefs?

You seem like a decent and open minded person, so please stick around and ask if the links I've provided don't answer your questions. If you're polite and listen to what people say, they should be polite back to you.

Camile,
The author has addressed your question. Please read this for an answer.

Can't a person who is a Christian still be a half way intelligent and a good person. Just becasue someone believes in something that you don't doens't mean they are bad or stupid.

You're right, there are many good and intelligent people who have religious beliefs. However they must be switching their brains off when it comes to religion, because as you'll see from these links, theism doesn't make much sense if you really think about it.

I think few of us would have any problem with other people's religions if they kept themselves to themselves. However, they don't tend to. You might not notice it much when you're a member of the local majority religion, but as atheists we are acutely aware of it. Freedom of belief is a human right, but there's a tendency for the religious to think it applies only to their beliefs, especially when they're in the majority. The fact is that especially in America, atheists are discriminated against by the religious authorities.

However, I think those who suffer most from religion are often the believers themselves. Surely stories like this one are tragic to hear whatever your beliefs?

You seem like a decent and open minded person, so please stick around and ask if the links I've provided don't answer your questions. If you're polite and listen to what people say, they should be polite back to you.

James,

Thank you so much for talking to me like I am a rational being. I have read the links and they have answered my quetions, and made me feel better about why people who don't believe in God can become so angry at religion and at religious people. All the issues that atheists seem to have with religion I have too, but I will always believe in God because of reasons already stated.

Thanks for your objective and fair comments,
Camile

Ebonmuse

I was just passed this site by a buddy. It is brilliant. Most of the comments are so cogent and thoughtfully expressed with a minimum of antagonism. I'm envious! Thank goodness there are people out there who can provide the rest of us some hope. There is a strong evangelical movement here in Canada not unlike that apparent in the US but, for some reason, it is largely kept out of our politics. In fact, a politician here who advocated such beliefs would not be elected. However, an evangelical leader here has publicly stated that he can have the Prime Minister on the phone in minutes - and I believe that he is right.

I did agree with the comment by Dominic Self who pleaded that 'Atheism not be a club, group or movement" because then it will just be another lobby group to 'lobby' or be attacked. Increasingly numerous vehicles to exchange ideas and to let people know there are like minds out there, such as this site, is the better way - although I will be joining the Canadian Humanist Association, or something similar, to assist in meeting others.

Camile----I think you'll find most atheists are very open-minded and tolerant of others' beliefs. That tolerance is rarely extended back to us by believers, and as James pointed out, we probably wouldn't make much of an issue of atheism if it weren't for the continual attempts by the devout to force their beliefs on everyone else.

One reason I spend so much time here is the civility of the regulars. There are arguments, to be sure, but they are overwhelmingly civil. This is typical of atheists, as a general rule, but if you listen to the lunatic religious fringe, you'd think we are all a bunch of puppy-grinders. Please hang around, your thoughts are very welcome.

I couldn't let this pass:

Poeple who live in China get abused and severely tourtured for thier religious beliefs

By atheists?

KShep,

I have got to quit coming on this site, it is so distracting. Yes, they are tourtured by the government of China (a communist nation which is atheist). Religoius people will be set free from slave labor and extrememly brutal torture if they renounce thier religious beliefs, but a lot of them don't. Google it. My point is you can't blame a belief system that gets corrupted by people for the wrong done by the people who profess a belief in it.

That's my point, too.

Thank you it is so nice to meet an objective person.

John's comment and subsequent replies have been split to a separate thread here.

Dear Adam,
I am an atheist. But a liberal atheist. This is to say, that while I have my views, I do not grudge the beliefs of those who cannot do without their beliefs and dependability on their Faith. I do not wish to see them without their Crutches. One has to be enlightened to be like us.
I enjoyed your daylight atheism. I hope to visit ebon musings.
I have two issues on which I seek your comments.
1.I have grown up studying Moral Science as a subject in our school curriculum. In all the teachings, there was God brought in to convey to the young minds what is right and what is wrong.(Now in hind sight we know that the Morality could have been put across differently) What is disturbing is that today there is no such subjects as Moral Science in a number of Schools. How will the young be taught what is right and what is wrong?
2.Should we try to educate the believers on the Atheistic view? or should we let them find out for themselves as i did at the age of 14 ?

I would be obliged if your comments are sent to my email.

Regards,

Dayanand

Adam,

First of all, thank you for posting your beliefs in a clear and non-vitriolic manner. Clear and reasoned discussion of the points of contention that exist between atheism, or humanism, and religion, or faith, will hopefully be fruitful. I am a devoted Catholic, and I, too, believe that the upswell of fundamentalism, in all its forms, must be halted. I look forward to discussing, as much as possible, the topics on this site, if you do not mind input from an alternate viewpoint.

God's blessings, and best wishes for continued, intelligent, and fruitful communication,

Randall

MR.Ebon, I wanted to thank you for the very intellectual and professionally run blog you have here.People here are very smart, well informed and polite. You should be running IIDB, they could learn from you. I learn from other posters here on every thread so far.

Hi,

Ateizm.org, the most prominent Turkish web site on atheism was closed to its Turkish audience for the second time in December 2007 based on a legal action taken by a Turkish creationist named Harun Yahya.

The ban on ateizm.org in Turkey is yet another example of fundamentalist Islam gaining ground in a country survived as a secular democracy for well over half a century.

Ateizm.org needs your help.

Please help us spread the word to get this ban removed.

You may read the full story in the following blog:
http://creationistsbanatheism.blogspot.com/

Ateizm.org is still accessible outside Turkey at:
http://www.ateizm.org

Aragon
Ateizm.org member

Congratulations on an interesting and well reasoned site. I found my way here via the Black Sun Journal website and I shall certainly visit again.

As a long-time (British) atheist it's nice to know that there are like-minded individuals across the pond who are not prepared to forgo logic and common sense in the face of irrational superstitious nonsense.

Quite frankly I find discussions of ancient religious stories or personages akin to discussing the events in, say, The Lord of The Rings. With the obvious, depressing difference being that some folks seem to think the improbable events are actual history! Am I allowed to say that I find it all rather embarrassing? Quoting bits of some 2,000 year old document of dubious provenance in order to 'prove' some moral or philosophical edict just strikes me as a huge waste of everyone's time.

Love your site and your articulately delivered ethical and philosophical positions.
The intellectual flailing about of far too many religious leaders struggling to justify their beliefs would be mildly amusing did it not carry so much risk if left unchallenged.
I've enjoyed more than a few laughs observing the far right Christian front men vehemently deny the theories presented in The Origin of Species while at the same moment enthusiastically embrace the most aggressive "survival of the fittest" economic policies and proposals.
Please continue this important work!

Hi - Fascinating site. I am a Christian, and I agree that many Christians do not treat the atheist position with proper respect.
He is a thought to drop in to discussion. When I was a teenager, I had total unmanageable hair - I could not find a hairstyle that worked. Eventually, I thought, 'Stuff this' (UK expression) 'I won't have a hairstyle, and I shaved all my hair off. My mum said, 'Why have you had a crew cut?' I said, 'NO, this is no hairstyle!' My friends said, 'So now you're a skin head?' I said, 'NO - NO HAIRSTYLE.' The point was, no hair style IS a hairstyle. The point is, no faith IS a faith. Richard DAwkins said in his interview with the NY Times following the publishing of The God Delusion, 'I think it very improbable that God exists, and so I live my life on the assumption that He is not there.' His position is a faith position, like that of any atheist.
THe key question for any atheist is 'Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead.'

Hi Allan,

THe key question for any atheist is 'Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead.'

No, it's not. The whole world does not revolve around Christianity. To an atheist, the question "Did Jesus rise from the dead?" is no more important than than "Did Allah reveal the Qur'an to Mohammed?", "Was Hercules the son of Zeus?", or "Can L. Ron Hubbard's auditing techniques rid us of harmful body thetans?" We treat all religions alike, and disbelieve in them all equally.

The point was, no hair style IS a hairstyle.

Bald is not the same as having no hairstyle. You made a choice to cut your hair a certain way, thus you believe that you had a style. Atheism is not the same.

You assert that god exists, I ask you to prove it before I accept your assertion. How is this a positive belief? It, quite frankly, is not. Non-acceptance of your position is not the same as saying that I believe in something else.

I'm not fully with you here. Surely you believe that there is not a god? And so I can ask you to prove your assertion?

No Allan. I believe that theists have no met their burden of proof. It is not up to me to disprove your god, it is up to you to prove that your god is there, since it is you that is making the positive assertion. Since that burden of proof has not been met, there is no need for me to accept your assertion and believe that there is a god.

I don't agree, but I'll give way. There are various evidences of God which no doubt you know well, being a contributer to a site such as this - design, conscience, etc. What convinces me is Jesus Christ, hence my comment earlier (May 12th). I find the evidence for His resurrection compelling, (unlike the evidence for the existence and deity of Hercules, quote Ebonmuse), convincing enough to put my faith in Him. If He didn't rise from the dead, then the whole of Christianity is nonsense. If He did, then His claims are validated and I'm going to stick with Him (I am going to die one day, and He is the only one who claims to meet my need and proved he was up to it.) Since putting my faith in Him, and taking Him at His word, I have found Him real, faithful and worthy of my trust.

Since putting my faith in Him, and taking Him at His word, I have found Him real, faithful and worthy of my trust.

Please tell me how you have found him real? I have plenty of friends who I can talk to, they talk back; if I need their help they help me, etc...
How does a god help you? You don't hear their voice...if you are in an emergency they won't help...if you get cancer, or some other illness, you will die...
Just how real is he?

What is it that you don't agree with Allan? That you have a burden of proof to demonstrate your assetions are valid, or that merely not accepting your assertions somehow means that I am putting forth a positive assertion of my own? What part of, "You haven't proven your assertion" makes a positive assertion on my part?

Further, there are no evidences of god that don't involve begging the question. If you assume god beforehand, it's trivial to post hoc rationalize some reason that the evidence at hand somehow supports your assumptions, but this is logically fallacious. Design and conscience are both bad arguments as evolution and science show that we have no need for god to explain those things. In other words, the gaps that god was hiding in have been filled.

As to your comment on May 12 about the key question for any atheist, you've drawn a false dichotomy, where there is only atheism or Xianity. The truth is, however, that there are many options available - as Ebon was getting at. And, if you want to talk about evidence for Jesus's resurrection, you might want to first provide evidence that Jesus existed. Then, explain to me how the Bible qualifies as evidence of anything, since that is the only "evidence" that you have of the resurrection.

Lastly, I too would like to hear the answers to goyo's questions.

Allan, neither this site nor this thread are the place for preaching. Please observe the comment policy.

Hey has anyone seen the movie Outpost? I think Prior said something like - "If I pull this trigger will your god help you?" And the quote in imdb "See, the bright light... it ain't heaven, son. It's just a muzzle flare." I am begining to like this sie more and more with every passed seceond but English is not my native language and it's kinda hard for me to consume all of the info posted here :(

[b]The point is, no faith IS a faith.[/b]

That may satisfy a set theorist, but in practical terms it's nonsense. Try telling a starving man that the empty space in his larder still counts as food, and you'll see what I mean.

Great site! I will be back soon. One of the best suprises was a poetry page. I thought I was the only one writing in this field.
Atheists bo have "soul".

Ooooops! Of course that should be "do have "soul"'. It's very early in the morning here.

To Whom It May Concern,

Hey, stumbled across this blog from a search engine, and have added its feed. I've read only a couple of posts, but am encouraged to see a site like this that isn't childish in its argumentation.

I will say that I am a follower of Christ, but in reading this blog I hope that my ideas will be challenged and faith eventually strengthened.

Thanks for looking at issues of religion level-headedly, and inviting all faiths to participate.

Cassandra

Great site! Glad I stumbled onto it and I'm going to visit it regularly as time allows. One thing that always amuses me when I read Christians' responses or comments - they always assume that GOD means only their deity... What about Zeus/Thor/Odin/Loki/Osiris/Pan/Dionysus/Apollo/Ba'al/El/Horus/Mithra (or Mithras?)/Mercury/Hermes/Poseidon/Mars... and so on?? Every one of these deities was as real to his followers as this Greco-Romanized Middle Eastern god is to Christians...

An interesting experiment,

set up a website at which prayers may be directed to an omniscient being(not omnipresent or omnipotent, think about it.) All aetheists may apply(people who have a religion won't, strange how many rules there are for not worshiping other god's, jealousy or a practical motivation?)and direct prayers (ie wish lists) to this being, then arrange a random response from the site derived from the inputs. Discussion on this if you think it's worthwhile.

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