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	<title>Comments on: Damned If You Do</title>
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		<title>By: Mrnaglfar</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33992</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrnaglfar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33992</guid>
		<description>I should have phrased that first question better; tack this on the end of the first sentence and go from there:

&quot;If god existed before anything else, what was god made of? Something can&#039;t exist without actually being made of something, and if this being happened to exist in nothingness, where did it come from (most especially something with self-awareness, creativity, and power to summon existance from non-existance, yet I&#039;ll assume you&#039;ll also think life is too complex to have appeared with a designer, right)? If everything requires a creator as you seem to think, something showing up in nothingness would require that same explaination.&quot; 

and to the end of this question:

&quot;if god can exist without having been caused, why couldn&#039;t the universe have always of existed, especially since the universe seems substantially less complex than god on the occam&#039;s razor scale?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have phrased that first question better; tack this on the end of the first sentence and go from there:</p>
<p>"If god existed before anything else, what was god made of? Something can't exist without actually being made of something, and if this being happened to exist in nothingness, where did it come from (most especially something with self-awareness, creativity, and power to summon existance from non-existance, yet I'll assume you'll also think life is too complex to have appeared with a designer, right)? If everything requires a creator as you seem to think, something showing up in nothingness would require that same explaination." </p>
<p>and to the end of this question:</p>
<p>"if god can exist without having been caused, why couldn't the universe have always of existed, especially since the universe seems substantially less complex than god on the occam's razor scale?"</p>
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		<title>By: Mrnaglfar</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33987</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrnaglfar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33987</guid>
		<description>Arch,

&lt;blockquote&gt;What can create itself?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nothing that I know of. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Why is there something rather than nothing? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know; is this the part where you say god? 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Without an eternal God, how would anything come to be? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

By always existing in and of itself is an option.

I do find it kind of ironic (though not really, because I fully expected the question to be answered as such) the way you answered the question with another question, basically saying exactly what you were trying to answer to.

Q: Why is god the only thing that can exist without having a cause?
A: Because you say so?

Here are some questions for you :

Q: If god existed eternally, it must have existed somewhere. How can an all powerful, intelligent being exist in nothingness? And if you&#039;re going to play the &quot;god is made of spirit or is immaterial&quot; card, then I would have to ask exactly how immaterial (made of nothing) qualifies as existing seperate from nothing. 

Q: If god exists as you envision it to exist, presumably this comes along with a personal quality in it that wants me to go to heaven (correct me if I&#039;m wrong there), or at very least wants me to acknowledge it&#039;s existance, why would it&#039;s holy book be so consistently wrong? Why wouldn&#039;t this knowledge be self-appearant to anyone who examined the evidence? Dinosaurs not being mentioned in the bible? Earth&#039;s age being misrepresented? Planet being flat? Sun revolving around the earth? Bats not being birds? No evidence of a world-wide flood? Christians not being able to drink poison and survive? And that&#039;s just a quick list I could rattle off the top of my head. It doesn&#039;t speak well of a supreme being to fuck up so many no trivial details concerning the universe it created. So why the inconsistency?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arch,</p>
<blockquote><p>What can create itself?</p></blockquote>
<p>Nothing that I know of. </p>
<blockquote><p>Why is there something rather than nothing? </p></blockquote>
<p>I don't know; is this the part where you say god? </p>
<blockquote><p>Without an eternal God, how would anything come to be? </p></blockquote>
<p>By always existing in and of itself is an option.</p>
<p>I do find it kind of ironic (though not really, because I fully expected the question to be answered as such) the way you answered the question with another question, basically saying exactly what you were trying to answer to.</p>
<p>Q: Why is god the only thing that can exist without having a cause?<br />
A: Because you say so?</p>
<p>Here are some questions for you :</p>
<p>Q: If god existed eternally, it must have existed somewhere. How can an all powerful, intelligent being exist in nothingness? And if you're going to play the "god is made of spirit or is immaterial" card, then I would have to ask exactly how immaterial (made of nothing) qualifies as existing seperate from nothing. </p>
<p>Q: If god exists as you envision it to exist, presumably this comes along with a personal quality in it that wants me to go to heaven (correct me if I'm wrong there), or at very least wants me to acknowledge it's existance, why would it's holy book be so consistently wrong? Why wouldn't this knowledge be self-appearant to anyone who examined the evidence? Dinosaurs not being mentioned in the bible? Earth's age being misrepresented? Planet being flat? Sun revolving around the earth? Bats not being birds? No evidence of a world-wide flood? Christians not being able to drink poison and survive? And that's just a quick list I could rattle off the top of my head. It doesn't speak well of a supreme being to fuck up so many no trivial details concerning the universe it created. So why the inconsistency?</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33980</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33980</guid>
		<description>Arch,
How do you know that all was created?  Answer: you don&#039;t.  Inserting god into your knowledge gaps is just as fallacious as always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arch,<br />
How do you know that all was created?  Answer: you don't.  Inserting god into your knowledge gaps is just as fallacious as always.</p>
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		<title>By: Arch</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33978</link>
		<dc:creator>Arch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33978</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; You forgot one of the biggest double standards of all...&quot;Everything that exists must have been created.&quot; So that includes God, right? WRONG. &quot;No, God always was and always will be.&quot; So why couldn&#039;t that be true of the universe? &quot;Because it&#039;s only true for God.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Without an eternal God, how would anything come to be?  Why is there something rather than nothing?  What can create itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> You forgot one of the biggest double standards of all..."Everything that exists must have been created." So that includes God, right? WRONG. "No, God always was and always will be." So why couldn't that be true of the universe? "Because it's only true for God." </p></blockquote>
<p>Without an eternal God, how would anything come to be?  Why is there something rather than nothing?  What can create itself?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33953</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33953</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Obviously every worldview ultimately involves some degree of circularity in its argument.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not in the technical sense of assuming its conclusions among its premises.  Every world view is ultimately founded on assertions that cannot be &quot;proven,&quot; such as &quot;there is a world external to my mind,&quot; &quot;my senses, while imperfect, tell me something useful about it,&quot; &quot;patterns that have held true in the past are likely to continue to unless something changes&quot; and other aspects of cause-and-effect, etc.  These propositions cannot be proven the way mathematical theorems can, and their truth cannot be established by evidence because the utility of evidence depends on their truth (I guess you could call this &quot;circular&quot; informally), however 1) the odds of them being false without being obviously false seem to be amazingly low and 2) if they&#039;re false, we really can&#039;t do anything useful about it.  Excessive handwringing on this and similar points of epistemology within the philosophical community is widely, and with some justice, derided as &quot;intellectual masturbation&quot; (IE, it&#039;s perhaps gratifying, but not productive).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Obviously every worldview ultimately involves some degree of circularity in its argument.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not in the technical sense of assuming its conclusions among its premises.  Every world view is ultimately founded on assertions that cannot be "proven," such as "there is a world external to my mind," "my senses, while imperfect, tell me something useful about it," "patterns that have held true in the past are likely to continue to unless something changes" and other aspects of cause-and-effect, etc.  These propositions cannot be proven the way mathematical theorems can, and their truth cannot be established by evidence because the utility of evidence depends on their truth (I guess you could call this "circular" informally), however 1) the odds of them being false without being obviously false seem to be amazingly low and 2) if they're false, we really can't do anything useful about it.  Excessive handwringing on this and similar points of epistemology within the philosophical community is widely, and with some justice, derided as "intellectual masturbation" (IE, it's perhaps gratifying, but not productive).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33948</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-33948</guid>
		<description>If only the circularity of the Xian&#039;s mindset would be more clear to the afflicted...
It does happen, however.  Eventually I could no longer ignore the insularity of my views as a Christian and it kicked off the process of deconversion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only the circularity of the Xian's mindset would be more clear to the afflicted...<br />
It does happen, however.  Eventually I could no longer ignore the insularity of my views as a Christian and it kicked off the process of deconversion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-828</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Apr 2006 01:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-828</guid>
		<description>I recently thought of another one that wasn&#039;t included in my original post:

If an atheist has had a life of pain and hardship, theists say that they&#039;re rebelling against God; but if an atheist has had a relatively easy and comfortable life, theists say that they&#039;re only an atheist because they&#039;ve had things easy and will turn to God to save them as soon as things turn bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently thought of another one that wasn't included in my original post:</p>
<p>If an atheist has had a life of pain and hardship, theists say that they're rebelling against God; but if an atheist has had a relatively easy and comfortable life, theists say that they're only an atheist because they've had things easy and will turn to God to save them as soon as things turn bad.</p>
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		<title>By: frank</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-393</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny because I posted about this exact same thing in my blog, although I only dealt with the &lt;a href=&quot;http://franksatheisticramblings.blogspot.com/2006/03/did-you-ever-notice.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;if a thesit becomes an atheist he/she is rebelling&quot;&lt;/a&gt;.  One week before you did it.  Nice.

Coincidence?  I think so :), but cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's funny because I posted about this exact same thing in my blog, although I only dealt with the <a href="http://franksatheisticramblings.blogspot.com/2006/03/did-you-ever-notice.html" rel="nofollow">"if a thesit becomes an atheist he/she is rebelling"</a>.  One week before you did it.  Nice.</p>
<p>Coincidence?  I think so :), but cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Scrape</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-372</link>
		<dc:creator>Scrape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-372</guid>
		<description>Obviously every worldview ultimately involves some degree of circularity in its argument.

Assuming God exists, could anyone possibly be objective other than Him?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously every worldview ultimately involves some degree of circularity in its argument.</p>
<p>Assuming God exists, could anyone possibly be objective other than Him?</p>
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		<title>By: Interested Atheist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-288</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested Atheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 09:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-288</guid>
		<description>Just need to vent a little - a series of conversations and debates on a Christian forum is winding down. Bloody hell, they can twist their facts better than a dishcloth. I couldn&#039;t really say it there, so I&#039;ll say it here: 

Your God is a fantasy, an ancient legend, and the arguments you use are a better testimony for your own inventiveness and creativity than the God they try to prove. 

Oh yes - and the best response from a theist when they lose an argument: ignore it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just need to vent a little - a series of conversations and debates on a Christian forum is winding down. Bloody hell, they can twist their facts better than a dishcloth. I couldn't really say it there, so I'll say it here: </p>
<p>Your God is a fantasy, an ancient legend, and the arguments you use are a better testimony for your own inventiveness and creativity than the God they try to prove. </p>
<p>Oh yes - and the best response from a theist when they lose an argument: ignore it.</p>
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		<title>By: beepbeepitsme</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-287</link>
		<dc:creator>beepbeepitsme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-287</guid>
		<description>Theism, thy name is hypocrisy.. Actually, I think it is more than this, believers project THEIR failings and inadequacies upon others. Then the &quot;bad qualities&quot; do not exist in their group, but in the group that does not believe as they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theism, thy name is hypocrisy.. Actually, I think it is more than this, believers project THEIR failings and inadequacies upon others. Then the "bad qualities" do not exist in their group, but in the group that does not believe as they do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Speiser</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Speiser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/damned-if-you-do.html#comment-284</guid>
		<description>You forgot one of the biggest double standards of all...&quot;Everything that exists must have been created.&quot;  So that includes God, right?  WRONG.  &quot;No, God always was and always will be.&quot;  So why couldn&#039;t that be true of the universe? &quot;Because it&#039;s only true for God.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You forgot one of the biggest double standards of all..."Everything that exists must have been created."  So that includes God, right?  WRONG.  "No, God always was and always will be."  So why couldn't that be true of the universe? "Because it's only true for God."</p>
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