Comments on: Physician, Heal Thyself http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:03:21 +0000 By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1847 Ebonmuse Wed, 17 May 2006 19:06:18 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1847 I've had no response from the reporter yet, not that I was expecting one. (I did have an exchange with another reporter from the same newspaper after challenging a credulous article she wrote about chiropractic - I'll probably post about that in June.) Andrea raises an interesting point, one which I should have remembered to include in my original letter. Although it's true that a healthy individual can donate a kidney, that is extremely rare, and I don't think it was done in this case, since the article didn't mention it. It's absolutely correct that a prayer to receive an organ transplant is usually, in essence, a prayer for someone else to die - and not just anyone either. Generally speaking, if you die from old age, disease, or any kind of serious systemic injury such as a car crash, your organs will not be suitable for donation. The typical organ donor is a young, healthy individual who has suffered some massive head trauma, resulting in brain death without damage to the rest of the body. That way, although the prospective donor is clinically dead, their body can be kept functioning until the organ recovery can commence. Therefore, a prayer to receive a donated organ is not just a prayer for someone else to die, but a prayer that a <i>young, healthy person</i> who otherwise had a full life ahead of them will die. What could be said about the morality of a deity that would grant such a request? I've had no response from the reporter yet, not that I was expecting one. (I did have an exchange with another reporter from the same newspaper after challenging a credulous article she wrote about chiropractic - I'll probably post about that in June.)

Andrea raises an interesting point, one which I should have remembered to include in my original letter. Although it's true that a healthy individual can donate a kidney, that is extremely rare, and I don't think it was done in this case, since the article didn't mention it.

It's absolutely correct that a prayer to receive an organ transplant is usually, in essence, a prayer for someone else to die - and not just anyone either. Generally speaking, if you die from old age, disease, or any kind of serious systemic injury such as a car crash, your organs will not be suitable for donation. The typical organ donor is a young, healthy individual who has suffered some massive head trauma, resulting in brain death without damage to the rest of the body. That way, although the prospective donor is clinically dead, their body can be kept functioning until the organ recovery can commence. Therefore, a prayer to receive a donated organ is not just a prayer for someone else to die, but a prayer that a young, healthy person who otherwise had a full life ahead of them will die. What could be said about the morality of a deity that would grant such a request?

]]> By: Quath http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1801 Quath Mon, 15 May 2006 21:02:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1801 I am glad you sent that letter. I hope it gets a good response. I have thought a few times about sending in such a letter to my local newspaper. I think next time they run such a story, I just may send in a letter also. I am glad you sent that letter. I hope it gets a good response. I have thought a few times about sending in such a letter to my local newspaper. I think next time they run such a story, I just may send in a letter also.

]]> By: Shawn Smith http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1800 Shawn Smith Mon, 15 May 2006 20:05:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1800 You know, James Randi regularly displays letters of this type that he or his readers send in to quackery-based organizations. I would be surprised if you get anything more than a form letter, thanking you for your submission, but letting you know in no uncertain terms that the paper will never stop printing these kind of stories. Kind of a, "nyah nyah nyah you're a poopie-head," response. Bleahhh. :-þ On a tangentially related note, I heard another reason for people to pray that I hadn't really heard stressed before. It was said by a somewhat orthodox rabbi and he said that the only real reason to pray was to reinforce the hierarchy of the divine relationship to the person praying--that God is Great™, Humanity is not, and that's that. I thought to myself, "well, at least he's being honest, even if he's being a jerk." You know, James Randi regularly displays letters of this type that he or his readers send in to quackery-based organizations. I would be surprised if you get anything more than a form letter, thanking you for your submission, but letting you know in no uncertain terms that the paper will never stop printing these kind of stories. Kind of a, "nyah nyah nyah you're a poopie-head," response.

Bleahhh. :-þ

On a tangentially related note, I heard another reason for people to pray that I hadn't really heard stressed before. It was said by a somewhat orthodox rabbi and he said that the only real reason to pray was to reinforce the hierarchy of the divine relationship to the person praying--that God is Great™, Humanity is not, and that's that. I thought to myself, "well, at least he's being honest, even if he's being a jerk."

]]> By: tobe38 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1799 tobe38 Mon, 15 May 2006 19:45:35 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1799 I just have to say that your point, Adam, about doctors losing the credit they deserve to God is something I've felt strongly about for some time. For example, I saw a documentary about a woman who had a 200lb tuma (not a typo!). Everyone refused to operate becasue of the risks, but one brave surgeon and his team conducted a highly complex 36 hour operation on a scale never before attempted to save the woman's life (who, I understand, is alive and well to this day). And guess what, her mother interviewed afterwards: "I prayed to God to let her live, and now I thank him for answering that prayer" (paraphrased, but near enough). No mention, let alone thanks for the doctors. Unbelievable. I just have to say that your point, Adam, about doctors losing the credit they deserve to God is something I've felt strongly about for some time. For example, I saw a documentary about a woman who had a 200lb tuma (not a typo!). Everyone refused to operate becasue of the risks, but one brave surgeon and his team conducted a highly complex 36 hour operation on a scale never before attempted to save the woman's life (who, I understand, is alive and well to this day). And guess what, her mother interviewed afterwards: "I prayed to God to let her live, and now I thank him for answering that prayer" (paraphrased, but near enough). No mention, let alone thanks for the doctors. Unbelievable.

]]> By: EnigmaOfSteel http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1798 EnigmaOfSteel Mon, 15 May 2006 19:08:04 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1798 Well, we each have two kidneys, so a living person could have donated one. But certainly there are transplants where one person is able to extend life, in part due to the death of the person donating the organ. I happen to have just had a discussion over lunch related to prayer and miracle cures, and an unfortunate person who has bone cancer. It seems odd to me that someone would pray for a cure to the very thing that, if it did not give the person cancer, at the very least allowed it to happen. And then what, is this all-knowing all-powerful thing going to change it's mind, due to the prayer of a simple human? If it does, then did this god make a mistake in giving the person cancer? It seems that regardless if this god exists or not, what is going to happen, will happen - regardless of prayer. Why then pray. It's the same problem I have with saying grace at meal time, something I encounter quite often, and am trying to determine the best way to respond. People thank a god for having food. Of course, some people do not have food. If the god is responsible for some people having food - what is the responsibility to those who do not have food? It seems the god only gets the credit. To be consistent, maybe the poor should be reciting a prayer that chastises the god for lack of food. It's not my intent to sound crass about the cancer/prayer thing - who knows how I would respond in a moment of weakness. Hopefully none of us will have to encounter that situation. Well, we each have two kidneys, so a living person could have donated one. But certainly there are transplants where one person is able to extend life, in part due to the death of the person donating the organ.

I happen to have just had a discussion over lunch related to prayer and miracle cures, and an unfortunate person who has bone cancer. It seems odd to me that someone would pray for a cure to the very thing that, if it did not give the person cancer, at the very least allowed it to happen. And then what, is this all-knowing all-powerful thing going to change it's mind, due to the prayer of a simple human? If it does, then did this god make a mistake in giving the person cancer? It seems that regardless if this god exists or not, what is going to happen, will happen - regardless of prayer. Why then pray.

It's the same problem I have with saying grace at meal time, something I encounter quite often, and am trying to determine the best way to respond. People thank a god for having food. Of course, some people do not have food. If the god is responsible for some people having food - what is the responsibility to those who do not have food? It seems the god only gets the credit. To be consistent, maybe the poor should be reciting a prayer that chastises the god for lack of food.

It's not my intent to sound crass about the cancer/prayer thing - who knows how I would respond in a moment of weakness. Hopefully none of us will have to encounter that situation.

]]> By: andrea http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1797 andrea Mon, 15 May 2006 17:21:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/physician-heal-thyself.html#comment-1797 I would add one more question to your reply to the kidney transplant article: "Did God kill someone just to fulfil the mother's prayer?" For that's what evidently had to have happened since everything is supposedly God's will. What of the parents of that child? I guess they didn't pray "right" or "enough". I would add one more question to your reply to the kidney transplant article: "Did God kill someone just to fulfil the mother's prayer?" For that's what evidently had to have happened since everything is supposedly God's will. What of the parents of that child? I guess they didn't pray "right" or "enough".

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