Comments on: Little-Known Bible Verses: The Sin of Sodom http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:09:52 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Rod http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-65271 Rod Tue, 26 Apr 2011 02:23:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-65271 Actually, there a number of other references in the bible to Sodom, and none of them even hint at homosexuality being a part of the story. Below is an excerpt from a piece I have written on homosexuality in the bible: Finally, from the viewpoint of context, what do other passages in the bible and other literature say about Sodom? It is interesting to note that while there are numerous references in the ancient literature, none of them, zero, say anything about homosexuality. Instead they focus on arrogance, in-hospitality, and intolerance as the abominations committed by the Sodomites. Consider the following: Isaiah 1; Judah is repeatedly compared with Sodom and Gomorrah in their evildoing and depravity. Throughout the chapter, Isaiah lists many sins of the people: rebelling against God, lacking in knowledge, deserting the Lord, idolatry, engaging in meaningless religious ritual, being unjust and oppressive to others, being insensitive to the needs of widows and orphans, committing murder, accepting bribes, etc. There is no reference to homosexuality or to any other sexual activities at all. Jeremiah 23:14 and Ezekiel 16:49-50 parallel the Isaiah reference. Neither includes any reference to homosexual activity. Matthew 10:14-15 and Luke 10:7-16: Jesus (the big man himself) implied that the sin of the people of Sodom was to be inhospitable to strangers. No mention of any sexual activity. Jude, Verse 7: The reference in Jude is ambiguous, at best. Jude described the Sodomites as “going after “sarkos heteras” in Greek. This can be translated as "other flesh". This may be interpreted as sex with angels (bestiality), or perhaps it is a reference to cannibalism, which was practiced in early Canaanite culture. Or, it may mean something else entirely. If it had been intended to refer to homosexuality, the word used would have been "paiderasste", a well known Greek word for same sex relations. Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5: the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance... Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a: The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of traveling in our land... So, according to these references, Sodomites were arrogant, inhospitable, cruel, intolerant, unjust, etc., but they weren't queer. In fact, they were very much like the homophobes in today's world! Actually, there a number of other references in the bible to Sodom, and none of them even hint at homosexuality being a part of the story. Below is an excerpt from a piece I have written on homosexuality in the bible:

Finally, from the viewpoint of context, what do other passages in the bible and other literature say about Sodom? It is interesting to note that while there are numerous references in the ancient literature, none of them, zero, say anything about homosexuality. Instead they focus on arrogance, in-hospitality, and intolerance as the abominations committed by the Sodomites. Consider the following:
Isaiah 1; Judah is repeatedly compared with Sodom and Gomorrah in their evildoing and depravity. Throughout the chapter, Isaiah lists many sins of the people: rebelling against God, lacking in knowledge, deserting the Lord, idolatry, engaging in meaningless religious ritual, being unjust and oppressive to others, being insensitive to the needs of widows and orphans, committing murder, accepting bribes, etc. There is no reference to homosexuality or to any other sexual activities at all. Jeremiah 23:14 and Ezekiel 16:49-50 parallel the Isaiah reference. Neither includes any reference to homosexual activity.

Matthew 10:14-15 and Luke 10:7-16: Jesus (the big man himself) implied that the sin of the people of Sodom was to be inhospitable to strangers. No mention of any sexual activity.

Jude, Verse 7: The reference in Jude is ambiguous, at best. Jude described the Sodomites as “going after “sarkos heteras” in Greek. This can be translated as "other flesh". This may be interpreted as sex with angels (bestiality), or perhaps it is a reference to cannibalism, which was practiced in early Canaanite culture. Or, it may mean something else entirely. If it had been intended to refer to homosexuality, the word used would have been "paiderasste", a well known Greek word for same sex relations.

Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5: the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance...

Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a: The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of traveling in our land...

So, according to these references, Sodomites were arrogant, inhospitable, cruel, intolerant, unjust, etc., but they weren't queer. In fact, they were very much like the homophobes in today's world!

]]> By: Geoff http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-54624 Geoff Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:20:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-54624 She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. Christian check list: Arrogant - Believe the whole universe and everything in it was built just for them. Overfed - I think this one is pretty self-evident, at least in America. Unconcerned - God will make everything okay so why should I give a damn, it's his problem not mine. Did not help the poor and needy - okay, on this one they do 'sometimes' help the poor and needy. But, only because they believe it will get them into a special place called heaven which was built just for them - Oh dear, that takes us back to arrogant again! She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

Christian check list:

Arrogant - Believe the whole universe and everything in it was built just for them.
Overfed - I think this one is pretty self-evident, at least in America.
Unconcerned - God will make everything okay so why should I give a damn, it's his problem not mine.
Did not help the poor and needy - okay, on this one they do 'sometimes' help the poor and needy. But, only because they believe it will get them into a special place called heaven which was built just for them - Oh dear, that takes us back to arrogant again!

]]> By: Thumpalumpacus http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48464 Thumpalumpacus Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:37:07 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48464 Oh, and thanks for the kind words. Oh, and thanks for the kind words.

]]> By: Thumpalumpacus http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48463 Thumpalumpacus Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:35:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48463 <blockquote>Cool name. Anyway, I assume what you mean when you say God would "hold [your] soul hostage" is hell. Under than assumption, I shall make my argument. Hell is not necessarily the presence of any devil, for when the devil is there God must be as well, but hell is the absence of God. Hell is the undoing of everything everywhen everywhere, and in the choice to live without God, to claim one doesn't need Him, God will grant them their choice. If someone wanted to live without Him, so be it; they will do so for the rest of eternity. God will not be holding souls hostage; God will be absent. There will be emptiness beyond imagining, because none of us has ever felt it before, because God has always been present. Though it probably tears God up to see one of His creations make that choice, He will, nevertheless, respect it, for there are also those who choose by their own free wills to come to God. That is better than any slave. But of course, I know none of this.</blockquote> Paula: This argument fails on several points: 1) If god is threatening to punish my soul for eternity, whether by lake of fire, or pining for him, or what-have-you, he is still practicing coercion, and extortion. That is certainly not the act of a benevolent being. There can be no free choice between two options when one is penalized and the other isn't. 2) Free will is all fine and dandy, but in this instance it is a father giving his three-year-old son to "go on, cross the freeway, if that's what you want. You know it'll hurt if you get hit." 3) If the absence of god is suffering, then it doesn't seem to be working. I'm pretty happy, aside from the odd vexations that keep life interesting.

Cool name. Anyway, I assume what you mean when you say God would "hold [your] soul hostage" is hell. Under than assumption, I shall make my argument.
Hell is not necessarily the presence of any devil, for when the devil is there God must be as well, but hell is the absence of God. Hell is the undoing of everything everywhen everywhere, and in the choice to live without God, to claim one doesn't need Him, God will grant them their choice. If someone wanted to live without Him, so be it; they will do so for the rest of eternity.
God will not be holding souls hostage; God will be absent. There will be emptiness beyond imagining, because none of us has ever felt it before, because God has always been present. Though it probably tears God up to see one of His creations make that choice, He will, nevertheless, respect it, for there are also those who choose by their own free wills to come to God. That is better than any slave.
But of course, I know none of this.

Paula:

This argument fails on several points:

1) If god is threatening to punish my soul for eternity, whether by lake of fire, or pining for him, or what-have-you, he is still practicing coercion, and extortion. That is certainly not the act of a benevolent being. There can be no free choice between two options when one is penalized and the other isn't.

2) Free will is all fine and dandy, but in this instance it is a father giving his three-year-old son to "go on, cross the freeway, if that's what you want. You know it'll hurt if you get hit."

3) If the absence of god is suffering, then it doesn't seem to be working. I'm pretty happy, aside from the odd vexations that keep life interesting.

]]> By: Paula http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48441 Paula Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:33:08 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48441 Thank you for listening to a theist's point of view and for expressing opinions different from my own. It's healthy to be acquainted with ideas from different sources, but for now I have more searching to do. I hope I can be a part of these discussions later on while I trek through life and analyze my experiences. All of us are in the search for Truth, I believe, and we are all just trying to help each other there. Good luck to your Truth-searching and may you be blessed by benevolence, whether you believe it's God or not. :) Thank you for listening to a theist's point of view and for expressing opinions different from my own. It's healthy to be acquainted with ideas from different sources, but for now I have more searching to do. I hope I can be a part of these discussions later on while I trek through life and analyze my experiences. All of us are in the search for Truth, I believe, and we are all just trying to help each other there. Good luck to your Truth-searching and may you be blessed by benevolence, whether you believe it's God or not. :)

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48280 OMGF Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:52:54 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48280 Paula, This all boils down to an argument from ignorance and god of the gaps reasoning. You don't know how love could be a real emotion, so you invent a god to fill the gaps in your knowledge and reasoning. Yet, we know that other animals experience these types of emotions, which leads us to an evolutionary explanation. There's no need to invoke a magic man to explain any of it, and there's no reason to assume that it would be your specific idea of god. Also, for a god of love, that god sure does seem to visit lots of suffering on his people. Paula,
This all boils down to an argument from ignorance and god of the gaps reasoning. You don't know how love could be a real emotion, so you invent a god to fill the gaps in your knowledge and reasoning. Yet, we know that other animals experience these types of emotions, which leads us to an evolutionary explanation. There's no need to invoke a magic man to explain any of it, and there's no reason to assume that it would be your specific idea of god.

Also, for a god of love, that god sure does seem to visit lots of suffering on his people.

]]> By: Scotlyn http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48275 Scotlyn Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:31:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48275 Paula<blockquote>" People led me to believe, and not just what they said, but how they acted, how complicated they were, how sometimes they'd perform acts that defied all logic and desires of self-preservation in the name of love. I understand it may not be your way of looking at the world, (for we all have our own films over our eyes, myself included) but to me, surely something was at work here. "</blockquote> Paula, I could say exactly the same thing, but what people led me to believe <i>in</i> was...people. In my experience most Christians, together with the beliefs they choose to cherry-pick and cobble together, are actually a whole lot better than their rotten Scriptures. Paula
" People led me to believe, and not just what they said, but how they acted, how complicated they were, how sometimes they'd perform acts that defied all logic and desires of self-preservation in the name of love. I understand it may not be your way of looking at the world, (for we all have our own films over our eyes, myself included) but to me, surely something was at work here. "

Paula, I could say exactly the same thing, but what people led me to believe in was...people.

In my experience most Christians, together with the beliefs they choose to cherry-pick and cobble together, are actually a whole lot better than their rotten Scriptures.

]]> By: Leum http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48271 Leum Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:48:07 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48271 <blockquote>Hell is not necessarily the presence of any devil, for when the devil is there God must be as well, but hell is the absence of God. Hell is the undoing of everything everywhen everywhere, and in the choice to live without God, to claim one doesn't need Him, God will grant them their choice. If someone wanted to live without Him, so be it; they will do so for the rest of eternity. God will not be holding souls hostage; God will be absent. There will be emptiness beyond imagining, because none of us has ever felt it before, because God has always been present. Though it probably tears God up to see one of His creations make that choice, He will, nevertheless, respect it, for there are also those who choose by their own free wills to come to God. That is better than any slave.</blockquote> Paula, you can't escape the horrific evil of Hell by making it about <i>psychological</i> torture for all eternity rather than physical. And if God demands that we choose him while in a state of complete ignorance, you can't very well argue that he doesn't want us to go to Hell.

Hell is not necessarily the presence of any devil, for when the devil is there God must be as well, but hell is the absence of God. Hell is the undoing of everything everywhen everywhere, and in the choice to live without God, to claim one doesn't need Him, God will grant them their choice. If someone wanted to live without Him, so be it; they will do so for the rest of eternity.
God will not be holding souls hostage; God will be absent. There will be emptiness beyond imagining, because none of us has ever felt it before, because God has always been present. Though it probably tears God up to see one of His creations make that choice, He will, nevertheless, respect it, for there are also those who choose by their own free wills to come to God. That is better than any slave.

Paula, you can't escape the horrific evil of Hell by making it about psychological torture for all eternity rather than physical. And if God demands that we choose him while in a state of complete ignorance, you can't very well argue that he doesn't want us to go to Hell.

]]> By: Steve Bowen http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48270 Steve Bowen Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:38:15 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48270 <blockquote>People led me to believe, and not just what they said, but how they acted, how complicated they were, how sometimes they'd perform acts that defied all logic and desires of self-preservation in the name of love.</blockquote>Which just goes to show, it is a remarkable and wonderful thing to be be human. I don't see what adding a god to the story achieves, other than to suggest we are incapable of such behaviour without one. Now that would be a depressing conclusion on't you think?

People led me to believe, and not just what they said, but how they acted, how complicated they were, how sometimes they'd perform acts that defied all logic and desires of self-preservation in the name of love.

Which just goes to show, it is a remarkable and wonderful thing to be be human. I don't see what adding a god to the story achieves, other than to suggest we are incapable of such behaviour without one. Now that would be a depressing conclusion on't you think?

]]> By: Steve Bowen http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48255 Steve Bowen Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:31:51 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48255 Paula It's hard not to admire your honesty. But what you say comes down to - You believe because you believe. There are other admirable theists on this site, who argue their corner very eloquently but in my opinion the bottom line is always, they believe because they believe. Very nice for you and them but still has no basis in observable fact. Paula
It's hard not to admire your honesty. But what you say comes down to - You believe because you believe. There are other admirable theists on this site, who argue their corner very eloquently but in my opinion the bottom line is always, they believe because they believe. Very nice for you and them but still has no basis in observable fact.

]]> By: Paula http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48252 Paula Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:53:44 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48252 Thumpalumpacus, Cool name. Anyway, I assume what you mean when you say God would "hold [your] soul hostage" is hell. Under than assumption, I shall make my argument. Hell is not necessarily the presence of any devil, for when the devil is there God must be as well, but hell is the absence of God. Hell is the undoing of everything everywhen everywhere, and in the choice to live without God, to claim one doesn't need Him, God will grant them their choice. If someone wanted to live without Him, so be it; they will do so for the rest of eternity. God will not be holding souls hostage; God will be absent. There will be emptiness beyond imagining, because none of us has ever felt it before, because God has always been present. Though it probably tears God up to see one of His creations make that choice, He will, nevertheless, respect it, for there are also those who choose by their own free wills to come to God. That is better than any slave. But of course, I <i>know</i> none of this. Thumpalumpacus,

Cool name. Anyway, I assume what you mean when you say God would "hold [your] soul hostage" is hell. Under than assumption, I shall make my argument.
Hell is not necessarily the presence of any devil, for when the devil is there God must be as well, but hell is the absence of God. Hell is the undoing of everything everywhen everywhere, and in the choice to live without God, to claim one doesn't need Him, God will grant them their choice. If someone wanted to live without Him, so be it; they will do so for the rest of eternity.
God will not be holding souls hostage; God will be absent. There will be emptiness beyond imagining, because none of us has ever felt it before, because God has always been present. Though it probably tears God up to see one of His creations make that choice, He will, nevertheless, respect it, for there are also those who choose by their own free wills to come to God. That is better than any slave.
But of course, I know none of this.

]]> By: Paula http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48251 Paula Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:43:50 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/sin-of-sodom.html#comment-48251 OMGF, "And you know this how?" I don't <i>know</i> anything, really. If you think about it, no one really <i>knows</i> anything. For example, staring at the computer screen, do I know my face exists? No, because I don't see it, and even then, my eyes could be tricked; surely this is proved by optical illusions and hallucinations. But do I <i>believe</i> my face exists? Would I be surprised if I looked in the mirror and saw that it didn't? YES. The truth is I don't know the Bible wasn't entirely made up, I don't know if God exists or doesn't, and I don't know that if He did, He wouldn't want slaves. But it's what I believe. I was never really close to God as a child anyway. I believed in Him as much as I believed Darth Vader was Luke's father; because that's what people say. But when it came to applying that to my own life, God just didn't seem to fit anywhere. As I aged I realized how easily people could be brainwashed into religion simply because their parents believed it, but still I was too young to fully understand what it was I was being raised into. Then my family stopped going to church. When we did start going again, I was met with brainwashed preachers, so they had no effect on me. It was the preachers who really knew what they were talking about who changed my perspective. And of course, science forced me to question religion as well, but all these questions and all my wanderings have created a stronger connection between myself and God. When I said that "greater than the gift of life is the gift of choice," I know there will be those who agree that they would rather die a free man than live a slave. Also, I don't believe the ability to make choices stops after death (but this is, of course, against Christian belief). The Bible is not what led me to believe in God in the first place. <i>People</i> led me to believe, and not just what they said, but how they acted, how complicated they were, how sometimes they'd perform acts that defied all logic and desires of self-preservation in the name of love. I understand it may not be your way of looking at the world, (for we all have our own films over our eyes, myself included) but to me, surely <b>something</b> was at work here. The one particular person who brought me closest to God and essentially sparked my desire to be the greatest version of me that I could, was an agnostic. She is still my best friend in the world. God IS down here, and He <i>does</i> have relationships with us, even with those who don't know it or see it. God worked through my friend though she didn't know it. I've developed my own theories (which many of them are contrary to Christianity, by the way) and one is that there is a piece in each person that <i>is</i> God and that rejoices in the communion of other God-spirits. Each human is a vessel carrying God and the devil, but the part that makes us who we are is the CHOICE. We choose how to handle our emotions, what to say, what actions to take when presented with a situation, how to reason, etc. The love I felt through my friend, though she would have thought it came directly from her heart, though it did manifest there, the source was from God. So I don't know anything really, but I believe what I do and the not-knowing leads to more questions, which leads to deeper levels of intimacy. OMGF,

"And you know this how?"
I don't know anything, really. If you think about it, no one really knows anything. For example, staring at the computer screen, do I know my face exists? No, because I don't see it, and even then, my eyes could be tricked; surely this is proved by optical illusions and hallucinations. But do I believe my face exists? Would I be surprised if I looked in the mirror and saw that it didn't? YES.
The truth is I don't know the Bible wasn't entirely made up, I don't know if God exists or doesn't, and I don't know that if He did, He wouldn't want slaves. But it's what I believe.
I was never really close to God as a child anyway. I believed in Him as much as I believed Darth Vader was Luke's father; because that's what people say. But when it came to applying that to my own life, God just didn't seem to fit anywhere. As I aged I realized how easily people could be brainwashed into religion simply because their parents believed it, but still I was too young to fully understand what it was I was being raised into. Then my family stopped going to church. When we did start going again, I was met with brainwashed preachers, so they had no effect on me. It was the preachers who really knew what they were talking about who changed my perspective. And of course, science forced me to question religion as well, but all these questions and all my wanderings have created a stronger connection between myself and God.
When I said that "greater than the gift of life is the gift of choice," I know there will be those who agree that they would rather die a free man than live a slave. Also, I don't believe the ability to make choices stops after death (but this is, of course, against Christian belief).
The Bible is not what led me to believe in God in the first place. People led me to believe, and not just what they said, but how they acted, how complicated they were, how sometimes they'd perform acts that defied all logic and desires of self-preservation in the name of love. I understand it may not be your way of looking at the world, (for we all have our own films over our eyes, myself included) but to me, surely something was at work here.
The one particular person who brought me closest to God and essentially sparked my desire to be the greatest version of me that I could, was an agnostic. She is still my best friend in the world.
God IS down here, and He does have relationships with us, even with those who don't know it or see it. God worked through my friend though she didn't know it. I've developed my own theories (which many of them are contrary to Christianity, by the way) and one is that there is a piece in each person that is God and that rejoices in the communion of other God-spirits. Each human is a vessel carrying God and the devil, but the part that makes us who we are is the CHOICE. We choose how to handle our emotions, what to say, what actions to take when presented with a situation, how to reason, etc. The love I felt through my friend, though she would have thought it came directly from her heart, though it did manifest there, the source was from God.
So I don't know anything really, but I believe what I do and the not-knowing leads to more questions, which leads to deeper levels of intimacy.

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