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	<title>Comments on: Theocracy Watch III: Education Edition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-2783</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-2783</guid>
		<description>Bible teaching at secondary school level, preferably optional, is one thing. Bible teaching at primary school level is quite another: I remember being taught bible stories age 6 and 7 from sanitised Children's Bibles. I'm not sure it helped much. Anyway, there is more than one version of the Bible, so any version you use will be biased from someone's perspective. 

In Religous Studies one shouldn't study Atheism: it isn't a religion and anyway the material of its belief wouldn't take more than one lesson. I'd like to see RS become "Ideological Studies" so it could take in Communism, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bible teaching at secondary school level, preferably optional, is one thing. Bible teaching at primary school level is quite another: I remember being taught bible stories age 6 and 7 from sanitised Children's Bibles. I'm not sure it helped much. Anyway, there is more than one version of the Bible, so any version you use will be biased from someone's perspective. </p>
<p>In Religous Studies one shouldn't study Atheism: it isn't a religion and anyway the material of its belief wouldn't take more than one lesson. I'd like to see RS become "Ideological Studies" so it could take in Communism, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1356</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 18:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1356</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In all fairness, I don't think the story of Lot's daughters is presented in the Bible as an example to follow.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's true. (The children conceived through those incestuous matings become the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites, two rival tribes to ancient Israel; the whole story was really just a veiled put-down of their enemies.) On the other hand, the mere existence of sex and violence in &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; books, regardless of whether or not it is presented in a positive light, is generally enough to trigger demands for censorship from groups like C2A. To be consistent, they should oppose the Bible as well on the same grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In all fairness, I don't think the story of Lot's daughters is presented in the Bible as an example to follow.</p></blockquote>
<p>That's true. (The children conceived through those incestuous matings become the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites, two rival tribes to ancient Israel; the whole story was really just a veiled put-down of their enemies.) On the other hand, the mere existence of sex and violence in <i>other</i> books, regardless of whether or not it is presented in a positive light, is generally enough to trigger demands for censorship from groups like C2A. To be consistent, they should oppose the Bible as well on the same grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1351</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 09:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1351</guid>
		<description>Part of a student's well-rounded education is learning about religions, perhaps most importantly the dominant religions that are most likely to have an impact on one's life. And it is better taught in a public school, where there is some opportunity to frame the perspective in a scholarly way instead of from the perspective of the believers.

That said, there are things in the Bible and Quran which are just not appropriate for young children. Some stuff will scare the hell out of them. Other stuff they may not know how to handle. In fact, &lt;i&gt;every major crime known to humankind&lt;/i&gt; is either committed, recommended, ordered, or carried out by the God of the Bible and the Allah of the Koran. (Anyone can verify this in about 5 minutes by looking through the skeptics annotated bible and quran; these are not just &lt;i&gt;descriptions&lt;/i&gt;, they are &lt;i&gt;prescriptions&lt;/i&gt; for how people should act). 

I guess my attitude is, if this is going to be taught, both the believers' perspective and the disbelievers' perspectives of those texts should be taught also. It should not be taught until the child is at an age where they can handle all the criminal activity that those religious books order the believers to carry out. It should be taught from the scholarly frame of reference, not as texts whose contents must be believed.

It does present some practical problems: How for example, does a teacher answer this question from a student: "Will I be punished simply for not being a believer?" The teacher can say some variation of yes, no, or maybe, and in each case has committed to a position. So, I suppose, due to the popular trends in our relativistic (postmodernist, i.e., post-factual, post-moral) society, the teacher might try to be "fair" and present all views, without taking one. But that kind of "neutrality" is not really neutral. To do anything other than condemn the punishment of the disbelievers (who have committed no crime except disbelief) is morally indefensible and indeed dangerous. We are basically giving religion a free pass because we're scared of what believers will do to us if we don't give it a free pass. If this stuff is going to be presented, students should be allowed to carry out a full unapologetic critique of the religion. None of this "can't criticize religion" nonsense. If it can't be criticized, it doesn't belong in a school.    

Nevertheless, not too much of the curriculum time should be wasted contemplating the  absurdities and immoralities of those books. There is the problem of teaching children scientific thinking, logic, ethics (without the corruption of divine command theory amorality), and critical thinking skills--the very tools needed to evaluate claims and behaviours including religious ones. There's only so much time in the day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of a student's well-rounded education is learning about religions, perhaps most importantly the dominant religions that are most likely to have an impact on one's life. And it is better taught in a public school, where there is some opportunity to frame the perspective in a scholarly way instead of from the perspective of the believers.</p>
<p>That said, there are things in the Bible and Quran which are just not appropriate for young children. Some stuff will scare the hell out of them. Other stuff they may not know how to handle. In fact, <i>every major crime known to humankind</i> is either committed, recommended, ordered, or carried out by the God of the Bible and the Allah of the Koran. (Anyone can verify this in about 5 minutes by looking through the skeptics annotated bible and quran; these are not just <i>descriptions</i>, they are <i>prescriptions</i> for how people should act). </p>
<p>I guess my attitude is, if this is going to be taught, both the believers' perspective and the disbelievers' perspectives of those texts should be taught also. It should not be taught until the child is at an age where they can handle all the criminal activity that those religious books order the believers to carry out. It should be taught from the scholarly frame of reference, not as texts whose contents must be believed.</p>
<p>It does present some practical problems: How for example, does a teacher answer this question from a student: "Will I be punished simply for not being a believer?" The teacher can say some variation of yes, no, or maybe, and in each case has committed to a position. So, I suppose, due to the popular trends in our relativistic (postmodernist, i.e., post-factual, post-moral) society, the teacher might try to be "fair" and present all views, without taking one. But that kind of "neutrality" is not really neutral. To do anything other than condemn the punishment of the disbelievers (who have committed no crime except disbelief) is morally indefensible and indeed dangerous. We are basically giving religion a free pass because we're scared of what believers will do to us if we don't give it a free pass. If this stuff is going to be presented, students should be allowed to carry out a full unapologetic critique of the religion. None of this "can't criticize religion" nonsense. If it can't be criticized, it doesn't belong in a school.    </p>
<p>Nevertheless, not too much of the curriculum time should be wasted contemplating the  absurdities and immoralities of those books. There is the problem of teaching children scientific thinking, logic, ethics (without the corruption of divine command theory amorality), and critical thinking skills--the very tools needed to evaluate claims and behaviours including religious ones. There's only so much time in the day.</p>
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		<title>By: Oz</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1339</link>
		<dc:creator>Oz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 22:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1339</guid>
		<description>In all fairness, I don't think the story of Lot's daughters is presented in the Bible as an example to follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In all fairness, I don't think the story of Lot's daughters is presented in the Bible as an example to follow.</p>
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		<title>By: andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 20:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>But it's not good literature, except maybe for the Song of Solomon.  Unless it hase the illusion of divine work behind it, it's not that long lasting or universally applicable like most "good" literature is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it's not good literature, except maybe for the Song of Solomon.  Unless it hase the illusion of divine work behind it, it's not that long lasting or universally applicable like most "good" literature is.</p>
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		<title>By: BlackWizardMagus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1332</link>
		<dc:creator>BlackWizardMagus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 17:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1332</guid>
		<description>I still don't see the problem. Studying the EFFECTS is an entirely different class than studying the bible itself. I mean, it IS literature, no? It's no different than Shakespeare to the atheists and the muslims that were in my class. The teacher I had was a Christian, but never made that an issue; he always taught about how the bible is on a literature scale. I would like at least the Quran taught as well, but still, teaching what's IN the bible is useful. Everyone should at least know OF the major stories, and have read one or two Gospels and Epistles for some context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don't see the problem. Studying the EFFECTS is an entirely different class than studying the bible itself. I mean, it IS literature, no? It's no different than Shakespeare to the atheists and the muslims that were in my class. The teacher I had was a Christian, but never made that an issue; he always taught about how the bible is on a literature scale. I would like at least the Quran taught as well, but still, teaching what's IN the bible is useful. Everyone should at least know OF the major stories, and have read one or two Gospels and Epistles for some context.</p>
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		<title>By: Montu</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1331</link>
		<dc:creator>Montu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 16:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1331</guid>
		<description>You know, I just want public schools to start teaching a decent world history class that doesn't favor the oil barrons of ol'.  If they could do that in a way that makes it exciting or forces these kids to think critically about our world, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, they can walk into a Bible study class and know how to think critically about that, as well.  Wait, no, I just want public schools to teach ANY class that forces the students to think critically about the world, and not just except that what the teacher is saying is true.  If critical thinking was a required part of the whole ciriculum, then the Bible study issue would be moot.  That's probably the number one biggest problem with public schools, the kids are simply never taught to think outside the lessons they're being taught.  No wonder all these Christian parents are getting scared that their kids are reading books that have "profane language" and mature content, they know their kids have never been given the tools to truly analyize the text (they're sure as shit aren't getting them at home...).  And by teaching the Bible in a non-critical manner, these kids can continue to have their "knowledge" spoon fed to them, using the tax payers dollar.  At least there are some parents out there that are able to teach their kids to use their brains and not believe everything Teacher says...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I just want public schools to start teaching a decent world history class that doesn't favor the oil barrons of ol'.  If they could do that in a way that makes it exciting or forces these kids to think critically about our world, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, they can walk into a Bible study class and know how to think critically about that, as well.  Wait, no, I just want public schools to teach ANY class that forces the students to think critically about the world, and not just except that what the teacher is saying is true.  If critical thinking was a required part of the whole ciriculum, then the Bible study issue would be moot.  That's probably the number one biggest problem with public schools, the kids are simply never taught to think outside the lessons they're being taught.  No wonder all these Christian parents are getting scared that their kids are reading books that have "profane language" and mature content, they know their kids have never been given the tools to truly analyize the text (they're sure as shit aren't getting them at home...).  And by teaching the Bible in a non-critical manner, these kids can continue to have their "knowledge" spoon fed to them, using the tax payers dollar.  At least there are some parents out there that are able to teach their kids to use their brains and not believe everything Teacher says...</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1329</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 14:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1329</guid>
		<description>I wouldn't mind seeing the Bible taught if it were done in a neutral way, such as the Democratic bill would have done. In fact, I'd be happy for students to learn &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; the important theories and discoveries relating to it - the various Christian and Jewish sects through history and their differing interpretations of the text, the documentary hypothesis for the origin of the Torah, &lt;a href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;archaeological findings&lt;/a&gt; regarding the historical veracity of the Old Testament, the &lt;a href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;mythicist theory&lt;/a&gt; of the New Testament, and so on - though I suspect that would cause heads to explode among the fundy set. (Think I can get funding from the Discovery Institute to support my "teach the controversy" plan?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn't mind seeing the Bible taught if it were done in a neutral way, such as the Democratic bill would have done. In fact, I'd be happy for students to learn <i>all</i> the important theories and discoveries relating to it - the various Christian and Jewish sects through history and their differing interpretations of the text, the documentary hypothesis for the origin of the Torah, <a href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch.html" rel="nofollow">archaeological findings</a> regarding the historical veracity of the Old Testament, the <a href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html" rel="nofollow">mythicist theory</a> of the New Testament, and so on - though I suspect that would cause heads to explode among the fundy set. (Think I can get funding from the Discovery Institute to support my "teach the controversy" plan?)</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic Self</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1325</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic Self</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 13:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1325</guid>
		<description>Our education system is slightly strange in this respect. Technically, there is a requirement for &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4552382.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;daily Christian worship&lt;/a&gt; although this is largely ignored by many schools, and, in fact, my area has it &lt;a href="http://www.qpcs.brent.sch.uk/prore.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;lifted altogether&lt;/a&gt; in favour of 'broadly based collective worship' which translates to assemblies about littering.

The result is that we are left with RE (Religious Education) lessons which consist of a broad, dull meander through various religions noting the holy days, festivals, key stories of each. I remember a worksheet which once asked 'Draw the creation of the universe according to Scientific and Christian beliefs.' Hence I turned the Big Bang into a Batman-style BANG! in the middle of a blank page before our teacher realised that this pushed the bounds of stupidity too far and told us we didn't have to do it.

In fact, I opposed the idea of &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3486537.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;adding atheism&lt;/a&gt; on the grounds that RE plays a valuable part in making children utterly bored and disillusioned with whatever is taught in those silly lessons.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our education system is slightly strange in this respect. Technically, there is a requirement for <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4552382.stm" rel="nofollow">daily Christian worship</a> although this is largely ignored by many schools, and, in fact, my area has it <a href="http://www.qpcs.brent.sch.uk/prore.htm" rel="nofollow">lifted altogether</a> in favour of 'broadly based collective worship' which translates to assemblies about littering.</p>
<p>The result is that we are left with RE (Religious Education) lessons which consist of a broad, dull meander through various religions noting the holy days, festivals, key stories of each. I remember a worksheet which once asked 'Draw the creation of the universe according to Scientific and Christian beliefs.' Hence I turned the Big Bang into a Batman-style BANG! in the middle of a blank page before our teacher realised that this pushed the bounds of stupidity too far and told us we didn't have to do it.</p>
<p>In fact, I opposed the idea of <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3486537.stm" rel="nofollow">adding atheism</a> on the grounds that RE plays a valuable part in making children utterly bored and disillusioned with whatever is taught in those silly lessons.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1324</link>
		<dc:creator>andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 13:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/theocracy-watch-iii.html#comment-1324</guid>
		<description>There's nothing wrong with studying the Bible but it must be the whole Bible, not just the "nice" parts (and it should be taught with the other holy books).  Then people can make a true choice of whether to believe it or not. If it's not the whole things, it's just propaganda and recruitment.  There might be a few people who actually understand it may be supposed to be a "literature" course, but most won't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's nothing wrong with studying the Bible but it must be the whole Bible, not just the "nice" parts (and it should be taught with the other holy books).  Then people can make a true choice of whether to believe it or not. If it's not the whole things, it's just propaganda and recruitment.  There might be a few people who actually understand it may be supposed to be a "literature" course, but most won't.</p>
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