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	<title>Comments on: A Good Riddance</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed,  7 Jan 2009 01:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-5007</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-5007</guid>
		<description>That's a good question, and it's one that only the Raving Atheist can answer. Of course, for him to do that, he would have to stop dancing around the topic and give a straight answer on whether he intends to convert or not. Judging by his latest posts, though, he apparently has no intention of doing that yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That's a good question, and it's one that only the Raving Atheist can answer. Of course, for him to do that, he would have to stop dancing around the topic and give a straight answer on whether he intends to convert or not. Judging by his latest posts, though, he apparently has no intention of doing that yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Thursday</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4993</link>
		<dc:creator>Thursday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4993</guid>
		<description>I had a friend in high school who used the modern wicca movement as a protest against her Christian upbringing.  I always thought it rather odd that her arguments in favour of her supposed faith were never about the positives of wicca, but exclusively about the negatives of Christianity.

Unsurprisingly, she converted back again one child, one divorce, and a few years later.  I'm wondering if the Raging Atheist had similar motivations...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a friend in high school who used the modern wicca movement as a protest against her Christian upbringing.  I always thought it rather odd that her arguments in favour of her supposed faith were never about the positives of wicca, but exclusively about the negatives of Christianity.</p>
<p>Unsurprisingly, she converted back again one child, one divorce, and a few years later.  I'm wondering if the Raging Atheist had similar motivations...?</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4912</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4912</guid>
		<description>"A claim of empirical evidence is certainly not actual empirical evidence"

Of course, Andrea, but what else do we have? How can we tell the difference between a claim of empirical evidence and actual empirical evidence? That is where method and analysis come in. Anyway, Archi Medez was highlighting a distinction in the claims made by science and the claims made by relgion- saying that one relies on empirical evidence and theb other does not. 

A claim that you can fly is not empirical evidence that you can fly, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"A claim of empirical evidence is certainly not actual empirical evidence"</p>
<p>Of course, Andrea, but what else do we have? How can we tell the difference between a claim of empirical evidence and actual empirical evidence? That is where method and analysis come in. Anyway, Archi Medez was highlighting a distinction in the claims made by science and the claims made by relgion- saying that one relies on empirical evidence and theb other does not. </p>
<p>A claim that you can fly is not empirical evidence that you can fly, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4910</link>
		<dc:creator>andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4910</guid>
		<description>A claim of empirical evidence is certainly not actual empirical evidence.  I could claim that I can fly but until I prove it, it's just words.  There is just as much claims of empirical evidence for the Greek Gods as there is any others (as Adam has shown in his essay).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A claim of empirical evidence is certainly not actual empirical evidence.  I could claim that I can fly but until I prove it, it's just words.  There is just as much claims of empirical evidence for the Greek Gods as there is any others (as Adam has shown in his essay).</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4893</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4893</guid>
		<description>Thankyou, Archi Medez. 

I think that the major religions do claim to have empirical evidence for God's existence. In Islam, the Koran is seen as the inspired word of God, and obviously if this were true it would be evidence for God's existence. In Judaism there are the various signs of divine presence allegedly afforded to the patriarchs, and the testimony of the Prophets. In Christianity there are the claims surrounding the indvidual known as Jesus of Nazereth (not least, that he existed at all). Now, this empirical foundation is relatively slender by comparison with the vast amount of scientific data gathered in even a single year. But its still an attempt to make an empirical claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankyou, Archi Medez. </p>
<p>I think that the major religions do claim to have empirical evidence for God's existence. In Islam, the Koran is seen as the inspired word of God, and obviously if this were true it would be evidence for God's existence. In Judaism there are the various signs of divine presence allegedly afforded to the patriarchs, and the testimony of the Prophets. In Christianity there are the claims surrounding the indvidual known as Jesus of Nazereth (not least, that he existed at all). Now, this empirical foundation is relatively slender by comparison with the vast amount of scientific data gathered in even a single year. But its still an attempt to make an empirical claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4892</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4892</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Philip on this one, at least regarding logic/reason*, and provided that we are talking in the abstract, in principle, and not in regard to the major extant doctrines. Some case of theism could, in theory, be supported by logic. This does not mean that any example of theism is built on logic that is free of internal inconsistencies, contradictions, etc. Nevertheless, in principle, theism and atheism can each be made and adjusted to be however logical/rational as we like, as long as neither makes any commitments to &lt;b&gt;empiricism&lt;/b&gt;.

*For the moment, I'm using "reason" as synonymous with logic. I do recognize that in common use, "reason" is often in reference to real-world reasoning, i.e., common sense and science.

Suppose I say "All pigs that have wings can fly. This pig has wings. Ergo, this pig can fly." Logically, there is no problem whatsoever with that statement. Any text of formal logical will tell you that it is a logically valid conclusion, given the premises. But we know from experience that the premises are empirically false, and the conclusion is absurd.

I think the key distinction between science and most religions is that the former is based heavily on &lt;b&gt;empirical methods&lt;/b&gt; (experiments, observational studies, etc.) whereas the latter is ultimately based on certain foundational assumptions that cannot be subjected to empirical testing. (This need not, of course, be the case, but it is the case with all of the major religions of interest). Scientists and theologians alike can make mistakes in reasoning/logic. The difference is that science focusses more on testing premises and conclusions that are of the empirical kind and which can be subjected to empirical methods.

To say that X exists is an empirical claim that cannot be answered until some empirical evidence is obtained about the validity of that claim. Most extant forms of theism make the claim that God exists. It is an empirical claim for which there is no evidence. Although theists typically remark that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, that doesn't help the claim. Any empirical claim must be supported by empirical evidence. Lacking empirical evidence, there is no basis for the positive claim.

A while ago I pointed out, probably stemming from one of Adam's posts, that atheists do have a positive theory about the truth of the claim that God exists. In a nutshell, atheists generally have a causal, scientific theory about this claim and its status, and where it comes from. It's origins are in human psychology, mythmaking, erroneous assumptions and analogies based on limited evidence, etc. Thus, we can say that God exists as a concept, even though a God that corresponds with the contents of the concept cannot be found in the real world (i.e., as an entity external to the concept). In other words, it is a mythological concept in the same category as elf, unicorn, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Philip on this one, at least regarding logic/reason*, and provided that we are talking in the abstract, in principle, and not in regard to the major extant doctrines. Some case of theism could, in theory, be supported by logic. This does not mean that any example of theism is built on logic that is free of internal inconsistencies, contradictions, etc. Nevertheless, in principle, theism and atheism can each be made and adjusted to be however logical/rational as we like, as long as neither makes any commitments to <b>empiricism</b>.</p>
<p>*For the moment, I'm using "reason" as synonymous with logic. I do recognize that in common use, "reason" is often in reference to real-world reasoning, i.e., common sense and science.</p>
<p>Suppose I say "All pigs that have wings can fly. This pig has wings. Ergo, this pig can fly." Logically, there is no problem whatsoever with that statement. Any text of formal logical will tell you that it is a logically valid conclusion, given the premises. But we know from experience that the premises are empirically false, and the conclusion is absurd.</p>
<p>I think the key distinction between science and most religions is that the former is based heavily on <b>empirical methods</b> (experiments, observational studies, etc.) whereas the latter is ultimately based on certain foundational assumptions that cannot be subjected to empirical testing. (This need not, of course, be the case, but it is the case with all of the major religions of interest). Scientists and theologians alike can make mistakes in reasoning/logic. The difference is that science focusses more on testing premises and conclusions that are of the empirical kind and which can be subjected to empirical methods.</p>
<p>To say that X exists is an empirical claim that cannot be answered until some empirical evidence is obtained about the validity of that claim. Most extant forms of theism make the claim that God exists. It is an empirical claim for which there is no evidence. Although theists typically remark that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, that doesn't help the claim. Any empirical claim must be supported by empirical evidence. Lacking empirical evidence, there is no basis for the positive claim.</p>
<p>A while ago I pointed out, probably stemming from one of Adam's posts, that atheists do have a positive theory about the truth of the claim that God exists. In a nutshell, atheists generally have a causal, scientific theory about this claim and its status, and where it comes from. It's origins are in human psychology, mythmaking, erroneous assumptions and analogies based on limited evidence, etc. Thus, we can say that God exists as a concept, even though a God that corresponds with the contents of the concept cannot be found in the real world (i.e., as an entity external to the concept). In other words, it is a mythological concept in the same category as elf, unicorn, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4887</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 15:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4887</guid>
		<description>theism is not the beleif that the bible or the koran is the word of god.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>theism is not the beleif that the bible or the koran is the word of god.</p>
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		<title>By: Boelf</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4885</link>
		<dc:creator>Boelf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 15:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4885</guid>
		<description>Philip, theism is inherently irrationality. It relies on faith to believe the the bible or koran is the word of god. Atheism makes no such demands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip, theism is inherently irrationality. It relies on faith to believe the the bible or koran is the word of god. Atheism makes no such demands.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4874</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4874</guid>
		<description>Atheism can be based on logic and reason, and so can theism: only the premises change. Irrationality is not unknown amongst atheists (or theists, of course). And the scientific model has nothing to do with atheism/theism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atheism can be based on logic and reason, and so can theism: only the premises change. Irrationality is not unknown amongst atheists (or theists, of course). And the scientific model has nothing to do with atheism/theism.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff T.</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4871</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 04:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/a-good-riddance.html#comment-4871</guid>
		<description>Atheism is based on logic and reason.  There is no room in the scientific model to support irrational prejudice and racism.  But there is plenty of room in any number of religions to support such hatred and bigotry. 

I think we can read between the lines of his words to discover this 'conversion' of opportunity to win over the bible belt voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atheism is based on logic and reason.  There is no room in the scientific model to support irrational prejudice and racism.  But there is plenty of room in any number of religions to support such hatred and bigotry. </p>
<p>I think we can read between the lines of his words to discover this 'conversion' of opportunity to win over the bible belt voters.</p>
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