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	<title>Comments on: No Oracles</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue,  6 Jan 2009 21:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5329</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5329</guid>
		<description>Tommykey, neither do I, hence the "if they exist at all" clause. Comparisons between the present human situation and the historical facts are commonplace, but they rarely have scientific or even academic rigour behind them. Laymen use science in a similar way too- taking a particular theory and applying it to wildly different circumstances...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tommykey, neither do I, hence the "if they exist at all" clause. Comparisons between the present human situation and the historical facts are commonplace, but they rarely have scientific or even academic rigour behind them. Laymen use science in a similar way too- taking a particular theory and applying it to wildly different circumstances...</p>
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5322</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5322</guid>
		<description>The title of this topic thread reminded me of the story of the Lydian king Croesus (Lydia being a kingdom in the western part of Asia Minor in the 6th century B.C.) who was keen to wage war on the Persian king Cyrus the Great.  Croesus consulted the oracle at Delphi and was told that if he marched on Persia, a mighty kingdom would be destroyed.  Croesus interpreted the oracle's message as meaning that if he attacked the Persians, he would destroy them.  But in actuality, his attack on the Persians was a disaster and it was Cyrus who ended up conquering Lydia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The title of this topic thread reminded me of the story of the Lydian king Croesus (Lydia being a kingdom in the western part of Asia Minor in the 6th century B.C.) who was keen to wage war on the Persian king Cyrus the Great.  Croesus consulted the oracle at Delphi and was told that if he marched on Persia, a mighty kingdom would be destroyed.  Croesus interpreted the oracle's message as meaning that if he attacked the Persians, he would destroy them.  But in actuality, his attack on the Persians was a disaster and it was Cyrus who ended up conquering Lydia.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5321</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5321</guid>
		<description>Philip, I don't know if one can say that there are laws in history.  One can detect patterns that result in the rise and fall of civilizations, for example, defeats or huge debts incurred from wars against foreign powers, weakening from within as a result of civil war, which leads to the breakdown of infrastructure, destruction of crops and livestock that would feed the population, the spread of disease etc. causing or hastening the decline of a civilization, just as a line of capable rulers, geographic advantages, greater technology and so forth leads to the rise of a kingdom or civilization.

We can use the past as a guide, but of course it does not mean we should rely solely on the past as a guide.  It is commonplace to try and use past events as a template for judging the present.  For instance, some people will look at Iraq today through the prism of the Vietnam War, or others will make parallels between modern day United States and the Roman Empire in the 4th century etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip, I don't know if one can say that there are laws in history.  One can detect patterns that result in the rise and fall of civilizations, for example, defeats or huge debts incurred from wars against foreign powers, weakening from within as a result of civil war, which leads to the breakdown of infrastructure, destruction of crops and livestock that would feed the population, the spread of disease etc. causing or hastening the decline of a civilization, just as a line of capable rulers, geographic advantages, greater technology and so forth leads to the rise of a kingdom or civilization.</p>
<p>We can use the past as a guide, but of course it does not mean we should rely solely on the past as a guide.  It is commonplace to try and use past events as a template for judging the present.  For instance, some people will look at Iraq today through the prism of the Vietnam War, or others will make parallels between modern day United States and the Roman Empire in the 4th century etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Thursday</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Thursday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 06:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>I've always viewed history as a jigsaw puzzle, one we don't know the size of.  We can assemble pieces, then make a guess based on the image that's presented and call that true; right until we find more peices.  Then we're still relying on those who can interpret the image, and those opinions can vary, too.

Moral of the story: Never trust an art critic.  They're all lying bastards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've always viewed history as a jigsaw puzzle, one we don't know the size of.  We can assemble pieces, then make a guess based on the image that's presented and call that true; right until we find more peices.  Then we're still relying on those who can interpret the image, and those opinions can vary, too.</p>
<p>Moral of the story: Never trust an art critic.  They're all lying bastards.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5306</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5306</guid>
		<description>I don't exclude history from science. It is, I grant, more difficult to test hypotheses about history than it is to test hypotheses in several other fields of science, since one obviously can't rerun history and see what happens if some variable is changed. However, there are many other indisputably scientific areas of inquiry which are primarily historical in nature, such as evolutionary biology (what are the paths that macroevolution has taken?) or cosmology (what was the sequence of events in the lifetime of the universe?). 

One can test hypotheses in fields such as these not by running controlled experiments in labs, but by making predictions about what evidence should already exist if a certain hypothesis is true (or what evidence should not exist if it is false), and then going out into the world to search for that evidence. Sometimes the necessary evidence has been destroyed by time, and in that case some questions will remain unanswered. However, in all of these fields, &lt;i&gt;enough&lt;/i&gt; evidence has thankfully survived that we can put together a very good general picture of what happened.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't exclude history from science. It is, I grant, more difficult to test hypotheses about history than it is to test hypotheses in several other fields of science, since one obviously can't rerun history and see what happens if some variable is changed. However, there are many other indisputably scientific areas of inquiry which are primarily historical in nature, such as evolutionary biology (what are the paths that macroevolution has taken?) or cosmology (what was the sequence of events in the lifetime of the universe?). </p>
<p>One can test hypotheses in fields such as these not by running controlled experiments in labs, but by making predictions about what evidence should already exist if a certain hypothesis is true (or what evidence should not exist if it is false), and then going out into the world to search for that evidence. Sometimes the necessary evidence has been destroyed by time, and in that case some questions will remain unanswered. However, in all of these fields, <i>enough</i> evidence has thankfully survived that we can put together a very good general picture of what happened.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5270</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5270</guid>
		<description>The science tells you how old the artifact is. That's antiquarianism, though. History is the interpretation of the evidence, artifact and otherwise. I'm not sure if you are excluding texts in your definition of artifacts. If so then you are excluding the vast bullk of history as a discipline...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The science tells you how old the artifact is. That's antiquarianism, though. History is the interpretation of the evidence, artifact and otherwise. I'm not sure if you are excluding texts in your definition of artifacts. If so then you are excluding the vast bullk of history as a discipline...</p>
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		<title>By: King Aardvark</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5269</link>
		<dc:creator>King Aardvark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5269</guid>
		<description>Re: history

History can be scientific, if it relies on physical artifacts and science to verify the artifacts as genuine.  Problem is, artifacts are either there or they're not; you can't run another experiment.  There's a lot more to it than that, and others have weighed in in a much more thorough manner than that, but I won't, since I really should be working right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: history</p>
<p>History can be scientific, if it relies on physical artifacts and science to verify the artifacts as genuine.  Problem is, artifacts are either there or they're not; you can't run another experiment.  There's a lot more to it than that, and others have weighed in in a much more thorough manner than that, but I won't, since I really should be working right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5265</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5265</guid>
		<description>This is a good essay. 

I'm curious, where does history fit in here? The student of history has severe limitations on how scientific his methods can be. Many of the phenomena he studies cannot be reproduced in the laboratory, or outside it. General 'laws of history', if they exist at all, are elusive and very difficult to verify. So, is historical knowledge valueless because it lacks scientific rigour?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good essay. </p>
<p>I'm curious, where does history fit in here? The student of history has severe limitations on how scientific his methods can be. Many of the phenomena he studies cannot be reproduced in the laboratory, or outside it. General 'laws of history', if they exist at all, are elusive and very difficult to verify. So, is historical knowledge valueless because it lacks scientific rigour?</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5239</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5239</guid>
		<description>Hi, I was recommended this blog by some people at www.vof.se (a swedish site working against pseudoscience), really good! I really like the way some of the things here are put. I wish I could answer a lot of people in this manner, face to face but I always seem to be in a defending position. Anyway, great stuff, will check the rest out to! 

Sincerely,

Joel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I was recommended this blog by some people at <a href="http://www.vof.se" rel="nofollow">http://www.vof.se</a> (a swedish site working against pseudoscience), really good! I really like the way some of the things here are put. I wish I could answer a lot of people in this manner, face to face but I always seem to be in a defending position. Anyway, great stuff, will check the rest out to! </p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Joel</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5209</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 06:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/08/no-oracles.html#comment-5209</guid>
		<description>OT, but this link on various kinds of logical fallacies might be of interest to many readers here:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT, but this link on various kinds of logical fallacies might be of interest to many readers here:<br />
<a href="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fallacyfiles.org/</a></p>
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