Comments on: A Religious Fugitive is Captured http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:31:14 +0000 By: c http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-33070 c Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:43:43 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-33070 As to the percentage of males versus females, in modern, developed societies, the survival of infants is about equal. However, without modern medicine, more male fetuses and babies die naturally, as they are more likely to be born prematurely and are weaker as infants. That is part of the reason that old school tribal polygamy (such as that practiced by some native american groups) often leans towards more women. The problems in many modern polygamous groups in the US is the misogyny, child abuse, and religious fanaticism. As far as the legal issues go, it is a violation of people's civil rights to interfere with private, consensual, adult relationships. Instead, there should be a crackdown on child abuse and rape. There should also be more venues and services to help protect the rights of children. As to the percentage of males versus females, in modern, developed societies, the survival of infants is about equal. However, without modern medicine, more male fetuses and babies die naturally, as they are more likely to be born prematurely and are weaker as infants. That is part of the reason that old school tribal polygamy (such as that practiced by some native american groups) often leans towards more women. The problems in many modern polygamous groups in the US is the misogyny, child abuse, and religious fanaticism. As far as the legal issues go, it is a violation of people's civil rights to interfere with private, consensual, adult relationships. Instead, there should be a crackdown on child abuse and rape. There should also be more venues and services to help protect the rights of children.

]]> By: George Arndt http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-6932 George Arndt Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:28:48 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-6932 The Taliban wing of the State Of Utah. The Taliban wing of the State Of Utah.

]]> By: J http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5777 J Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:43:45 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5777 Three more bits: 1.) Additional dark-horse "enablers" for polygamy: Widespread castration of young males (i.e. court culture in China or Islamic societies) or widespread imprisonment of young men. 2.) Terrific sci-fi/philosophical-fictional treatment of a bi-mutual/directional gender apartheid: <i>The Gate to Women's Country</i> by Sherri S. Tepper. 3.) And thanks for the post, Amy. That article sums it up perfectly: <i>Gideon is one of the ''Lost Boys," a group of more than 400 teenagers -- some as young as 13 -- who authorities in Utah and Arizona say have fled or been driven out of the polygamous enclaves of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City over the last four years. His stated offenses: wearing short-sleeved shirts, listening to compact discs, and having a girlfriend. . . Authorities say the teenagers aren't really being expelled for what they watch or wear, but rather to reduce competition for women in places where men can have dozens of wives.</i> That part about "having a girlfriend" is especially important. Three more bits:

1.) Additional dark-horse "enablers" for polygamy: Widespread castration of young males (i.e. court culture in China or Islamic societies) or widespread imprisonment of young men.

2.) Terrific sci-fi/philosophical-fictional treatment of a bi-mutual/directional gender apartheid: The Gate to Women's Country by Sherri S. Tepper.

3.) And thanks for the post, Amy. That article sums it up perfectly:

Gideon is one of the ''Lost Boys," a group of more than 400 teenagers -- some as young as 13 -- who authorities in Utah and Arizona say have fled or been driven out of the polygamous enclaves of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City over the last four years.

His stated offenses: wearing short-sleeved shirts, listening to compact discs, and having a girlfriend. . . Authorities say the teenagers aren't really being expelled for what they watch or wear, but rather to reduce competition for women in places where men can have dozens of wives.

That part about "having a girlfriend" is especially important.

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5775 Alex Weaver Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:11:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5775 "Stableism" might work better, with the implicit connection with other forms of organized misogyny and sex abuse (organized criminal prostitution). But then you'd have to explain it to almost everyone who heard it. "Stableism" might work better, with the implicit connection with other forms of organized misogyny and sex abuse (organized criminal prostitution). But then you'd have to explain it to almost everyone who heard it.

]]> By: Oz http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5773 Oz Tue, 05 Sep 2006 23:20:56 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5773 Polygamy is gender neutral. What is traditionally practiced is actually polygyny, literally "many women." Polygamy is gender neutral. What is traditionally practiced is actually polygyny, literally "many women."

]]> By: Amy http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5770 Amy Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:30:22 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5770 It looks like Jeffs is looking at more charges. This time by 5 boys who were thrown out of their community by Jeffs. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/19/polygamys_lost_boys_expelled_from_only_life_they_knew/ It looks like Jeffs is looking at more charges. This time by 5 boys who were thrown out of their community by Jeffs.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/19/polygamys_lost_boys_expelled_from_only_life_they_knew/

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5768 Alex Weaver Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:20:22 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5768 That's a problem with polygamy as a cultural institution though, rather than as a voluntary arrangement on a per-household basis, isn't it? That's a problem with polygamy as a cultural institution though, rather than as a voluntary arrangement on a per-household basis, isn't it?

]]> By: Philip Thomas http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5761 Philip Thomas Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:07:28 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5761 Homosexuality is the obvious solution there... Or just allow polyandry as well. Homosexuality is the obvious solution there...
Or just allow polyandry as well.

]]> By: J http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5760 J Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:04:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5760 <i>The question of polygamy raises some difficult moral issues. I am not opposed to the idea of two women and a man (or two men and a woman) living together if they are all consenting adults and freely choose such an arrangement. In any case, since the Colorado City polygamists and other fundamentalist Mormons almost never seek legal sanction for their plural marriages but are only married "in spirit" by fellow church members, it is difficult to see what laws could be passed to prevent them from doing this that would not also entail a draconian intrusion into the lives of all other private citizens.</i> There is one serious problem with polygamy: Male infanticide. In anthropological terms, polygamy only "works" if there is a continuous removal of men--particularly young men--from the community, usually through war or the hunting of large and dangerous animals. Otherwise you end up with a lot of "spare" young men idling around without any women to marry, which does not make for a stable society. I'm surprised Krakauer doesn't mention it at all in <i>Under the Banner of Heaven</i> but the mortality rate among the male children of polygamous communities (to the degree that childbirths are reported to the authorities at all in, say, Colorado City or Bountiful, British Columbia) is <i>suspiciously</i> high. Like, 20%. The question of polygamy raises some difficult moral issues. I am not opposed to the idea of two women and a man (or two men and a woman) living together if they are all consenting adults and freely choose such an arrangement. In any case, since the Colorado City polygamists and other fundamentalist Mormons almost never seek legal sanction for their plural marriages but are only married "in spirit" by fellow church members, it is difficult to see what laws could be passed to prevent them from doing this that would not also entail a draconian intrusion into the lives of all other private citizens.

There is one serious problem with polygamy: Male infanticide.

In anthropological terms, polygamy only "works" if there is a continuous removal of men--particularly young men--from the community, usually through war or the hunting of large and dangerous animals. Otherwise you end up with a lot of "spare" young men idling around without any women to marry, which does not make for a stable society.

I'm surprised Krakauer doesn't mention it at all in Under the Banner of Heaven but the mortality rate among the male children of polygamous communities (to the degree that childbirths are reported to the authorities at all in, say, Colorado City or Bountiful, British Columbia) is suspiciously high. Like, 20%.

]]> By: Oz http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5744 Oz Tue, 05 Sep 2006 03:03:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/09/warren-jeffs.html#comment-5744 Dunno, "concubine" has a pretty neutral connotation to me. It doesn't express the idea that child abuse is going on. It's true that pedophilia has a psychiatric definition, but because of its wider unofficial use I think it makes a good candidate. Using "ephbophilia" would just confuse most people, I think. The important thing is to separate the broad concept of polygamy from this despicable subset (just like homosexuality should be separated from the subset of NAMBLA members). Dunno, "concubine" has a pretty neutral connotation to me. It doesn't express the idea that child abuse is going on. It's true that pedophilia has a psychiatric definition, but because of its wider unofficial use I think it makes a good candidate. Using "ephbophilia" would just confuse most people, I think. The important thing is to separate the broad concept of polygamy from this despicable subset (just like homosexuality should be separated from the subset of NAMBLA members).

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