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	<title>Comments on: Book Review: The End of Faith/Letter to a Christian Nation</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: O. Wolcott</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8889</link>
		<dc:creator>O. Wolcott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well put Ebonmuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well put Ebonmuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8863</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8863</guid>
		<description>Comment by TK:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It&#039;s my understanding that embryonic stem-cell research is completely legal; that while elements of the government do not endorse public funding of it, neither is private capital rushing to support it as is usually the case with any promising discovery; and that the suffering of many (if not millions) is currently being alleviated through some 70-odd lines of adult stem-cell therapy. Anyone to shed further light here?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Embryonic stem-cell research is not banned by the &lt;i&gt;federal&lt;/i&gt; government, but there are some U.S. states in which it is indeed outlawed (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-16-stem-cells-usat_x.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this USA Today article&lt;/a&gt;). And the federal ban on funding, if not on research, of ESCs is still incredibly restrictive, to the point where researchers cannot even study the subject in &lt;i&gt;buildings&lt;/i&gt; built with federal assistance (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/10/half_steam_ahead.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;). Also, the vaunted 70 lines are turning out to be a bust for research, because they were grown on layers of &quot;feeder cells&quot; from mouse and fetal calf serum. It turns out that the stem cells have picked up a non-human molecule from those feeder cells which they now express on their own surfaces, which would provoke a dangerous immune reaction if these cells were ever transplanted into humnan beings (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-01/uoc--che011805.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;).

Regarding the Tamil Tigers, I don&#039;t know much about that group. Harris characterizes them as a predominantly Hindu organization and I took his word for that; if that statement is incorrect, I&#039;ll certainly withdraw it. In any case, the point is still valid that fundamentalist Muslims are not the only or even the most frequent users of suicide terrorism, though they are certainly the most spectacularly evil in their use of it.

Also, addressing Daniel Morgan&#039;s comment:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I don&#039;t like the way the freethought community drops its skeptical bent and critical appraisal of arguments when they review the writing of some of the modern-day &quot;heroes&quot; in the culture wars.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What distressed me the most was that, despite Harris&#039; foray into bizarre mysticism, he says so much that I agree with wholeheartedly. That makes it very difficult to dismiss him, and I hope I made the line sufficiently clear between applauding much of what he says while expressing reservations on some parts. I wouldn&#039;t say, however, that either he or Dawkins has a superficial approach to religious criticism. At worst, they could be accused of playing to the crowd, but there&#039;s no sin in that when we&#039;re trying to win people over to our side. As many have pointed out, it is not the airy, sophisticated, far-distant from reality beliefs of the theologians that Dawkins and Harris are attacking. They are attacking the average, largely literal religious views held by the &quot;man on the street&quot;, for the simple reason that the latter view is far more common and poses a far greater danger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment by TK:</p>
<blockquote><p>It's my understanding that embryonic stem-cell research is completely legal; that while elements of the government do not endorse public funding of it, neither is private capital rushing to support it as is usually the case with any promising discovery; and that the suffering of many (if not millions) is currently being alleviated through some 70-odd lines of adult stem-cell therapy. Anyone to shed further light here?</p></blockquote>
<p>Embryonic stem-cell research is not banned by the <i>federal</i> government, but there are some U.S. states in which it is indeed outlawed (see <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-16-stem-cells-usat_x.htm" rel="nofollow">this USA Today article</a>). And the federal ban on funding, if not on research, of ESCs is still incredibly restrictive, to the point where researchers cannot even study the subject in <i>buildings</i> built with federal assistance (<a href="http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/10/half_steam_ahead.html" rel="nofollow">source</a>). Also, the vaunted 70 lines are turning out to be a bust for research, because they were grown on layers of "feeder cells" from mouse and fetal calf serum. It turns out that the stem cells have picked up a non-human molecule from those feeder cells which they now express on their own surfaces, which would provoke a dangerous immune reaction if these cells were ever transplanted into humnan beings (<a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-01/uoc--che011805.php" rel="nofollow">source</a>).</p>
<p>Regarding the Tamil Tigers, I don't know much about that group. Harris characterizes them as a predominantly Hindu organization and I took his word for that; if that statement is incorrect, I'll certainly withdraw it. In any case, the point is still valid that fundamentalist Muslims are not the only or even the most frequent users of suicide terrorism, though they are certainly the most spectacularly evil in their use of it.</p>
<p>Also, addressing Daniel Morgan's comment:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I don't like the way the freethought community drops its skeptical bent and critical appraisal of arguments when they review the writing of some of the modern-day "heroes" in the culture wars.
</p></blockquote>
<p>What distressed me the most was that, despite Harris' foray into bizarre mysticism, he says so much that I agree with wholeheartedly. That makes it very difficult to dismiss him, and I hope I made the line sufficiently clear between applauding much of what he says while expressing reservations on some parts. I wouldn't say, however, that either he or Dawkins has a superficial approach to religious criticism. At worst, they could be accused of playing to the crowd, but there's no sin in that when we're trying to win people over to our side. As many have pointed out, it is not the airy, sophisticated, far-distant from reality beliefs of the theologians that Dawkins and Harris are attacking. They are attacking the average, largely literal religious views held by the "man on the street", for the simple reason that the latter view is far more common and poses a far greater danger.</p>
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		<title>By: O. Wolcott</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8850</link>
		<dc:creator>O. Wolcott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8850</guid>
		<description>Daniel Morgan, I was wondering in what instances &quot;Dawkins and Harris can be superficial in their approach to religion, ignoring serious rebuttals and hand-waving when they could get serious and deep&quot;?  I ask because having read both of Harris&#039; books as well as several of Dawkins including &#039;The God Delusion&#039;, I do not think they are superficial in their approach.  In fact, the rigor with which they both dismantle religious arguments - the need/benefits of religion, faith and belief in God - are all too serious and evidentially justified.  Both Harris and Dawkins&#039; wry wit emerge from the pages of their books no doubt (Dawkins&#039; books can be dripping in it); though that is not to say that their reproval stands devoid of evidence.  Those &quot;superficial&quot; comments or undertakings are intended for non-believers who share the same sense of shock and bewilderment at the absurdity of religion and its pernicious effects in the world today.  Certainly religious believers, having been one myself, will not be swayed by humorous anecdotes; both Harris and Dawkins know that and as I said that is not why they&#039;re interspersed throughout their books.  

Neither Harris or Dawkins are immune to criticism, as ebonmuse properly pointed out. To the best of my knowledge however, there is not a single serious agrument put forth by religous adherents (particularly and specifically the Abrahamic traditions) that has not been addressed with due diligence by Harris and or Dawkins.  All that being said I would be more than happy to amend my statements if guided to specific instances or areas of religious scholarship either of them dismiss prior to investigation.  At the very least I might then have an excuse to re-read their laudable works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel Morgan, I was wondering in what instances "Dawkins and Harris can be superficial in their approach to religion, ignoring serious rebuttals and hand-waving when they could get serious and deep"?  I ask because having read both of Harris' books as well as several of Dawkins including 'The God Delusion', I do not think they are superficial in their approach.  In fact, the rigor with which they both dismantle religious arguments - the need/benefits of religion, faith and belief in God - are all too serious and evidentially justified.  Both Harris and Dawkins' wry wit emerge from the pages of their books no doubt (Dawkins' books can be dripping in it); though that is not to say that their reproval stands devoid of evidence.  Those "superficial" comments or undertakings are intended for non-believers who share the same sense of shock and bewilderment at the absurdity of religion and its pernicious effects in the world today.  Certainly religious believers, having been one myself, will not be swayed by humorous anecdotes; both Harris and Dawkins know that and as I said that is not why they're interspersed throughout their books.  </p>
<p>Neither Harris or Dawkins are immune to criticism, as ebonmuse properly pointed out. To the best of my knowledge however, there is not a single serious agrument put forth by religous adherents (particularly and specifically the Abrahamic traditions) that has not been addressed with due diligence by Harris and or Dawkins.  All that being said I would be more than happy to amend my statements if guided to specific instances or areas of religious scholarship either of them dismiss prior to investigation.  At the very least I might then have an excuse to re-read their laudable works.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8799</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 03:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8799</guid>
		<description>The Tamil Tigers are essentially secular; I recall from somewhere that their construction on suicide bombing is that it represents the ultimate test of devotion to the cause -- whether one is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for it.

And I wonder if some of them consider a suicide-bomber death to be more dignified than dying of defeat in battle. It must be said that the Tamil Tigers are under siege by the Sri Lankan Army; they may have a desperado component in them.

The Japanese &quot;kamikaze&quot; airplane-as-cruise-missile attackers were much the same way. That strategy was reluctantly accepted out of a lack of better alternatives, and it was very controversial in the Japanese military. It was more popular in the Navy than in the Army, because while the Army was holding on to its part of China, the Navy was losing &lt;i&gt;very&lt;/i&gt; badly in the War of the Pacific -- consistent with it being a desperado strategy.

There was even an American who was posthumously celebrated for doing that: Captain Richard Fleming. After the Battle of Midway, he and some fellow bomber pilots chased some Japanese ships to bomb them. But his plane got attacked and he decided to make the best of what little life he likely had left. So he flew his plane into one of the Japanese ships, and leaking gasoline from it caused a humongous fire that disabled the ship.

By comparison, Islamists seem almost swinishly hedonistic, looking forward to having harems of lovely ladies in the next world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tamil Tigers are essentially secular; I recall from somewhere that their construction on suicide bombing is that it represents the ultimate test of devotion to the cause -- whether one is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for it.</p>
<p>And I wonder if some of them consider a suicide-bomber death to be more dignified than dying of defeat in battle. It must be said that the Tamil Tigers are under siege by the Sri Lankan Army; they may have a desperado component in them.</p>
<p>The Japanese "kamikaze" airplane-as-cruise-missile attackers were much the same way. That strategy was reluctantly accepted out of a lack of better alternatives, and it was very controversial in the Japanese military. It was more popular in the Navy than in the Army, because while the Army was holding on to its part of China, the Navy was losing <i>very</i> badly in the War of the Pacific -- consistent with it being a desperado strategy.</p>
<p>There was even an American who was posthumously celebrated for doing that: Captain Richard Fleming. After the Battle of Midway, he and some fellow bomber pilots chased some Japanese ships to bomb them. But his plane got attacked and he decided to make the best of what little life he likely had left. So he flew his plane into one of the Japanese ships, and leaking gasoline from it caused a humongous fire that disabled the ship.</p>
<p>By comparison, Islamists seem almost swinishly hedonistic, looking forward to having harems of lovely ladies in the next world.</p>
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		<title>By: Vishnu Vyas</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8796</link>
		<dc:creator>Vishnu Vyas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8796</guid>
		<description>Err.. Hindu Tamil Tigers? With a catholic spokesman, a marxist leadear and a mixed hindu/christian millita, its most famous refugee an evangelical? Its an armed response to ethinic cleansing, not a religious conflict at all.

Though not all of their methods can be really apporoved of, their problems are much more complicated (primarily political, linguistic and partly ethinic), But its anything but religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Err.. Hindu Tamil Tigers? With a catholic spokesman, a marxist leadear and a mixed hindu/christian millita, its most famous refugee an evangelical? Its an armed response to ethinic cleansing, not a religious conflict at all.</p>
<p>Though not all of their methods can be really apporoved of, their problems are much more complicated (primarily political, linguistic and partly ethinic), But its anything but religion.</p>
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		<title>By: The Ridger</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8794</link>
		<dc:creator>The Ridger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8794</guid>
		<description>My problem with the last chapter of End of Faith was that (a) he never convinced me that the annihilation of the &quot;I&quot; was possible without psychosis - not for any appreciable length of time at any rate - and (b) if it is, he never explained exactly why he thinks it is desirable. He &lt;i&gt;talked&lt;/i&gt; as though he had, and as though I were following him along the path he was taking, but he hadn&#039;t. And I wasn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My problem with the last chapter of End of Faith was that (a) he never convinced me that the annihilation of the "I" was possible without psychosis - not for any appreciable length of time at any rate - and (b) if it is, he never explained exactly why he thinks it is desirable. He <i>talked</i> as though he had, and as though I were following him along the path he was taking, but he hadn't. And I wasn't.</p>
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		<title>By: Nes</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8791</link>
		<dc:creator>Nes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8791</guid>
		<description>As I understand it, the claims that ASC have treated 70-odd diseases are... &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/david_prentices_shoddy_stem_ce.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;exaggerated&lt;/a&gt;. Assuming that those guys are right about it, anyway.

Even if ESC won&#039;t treat anything, I think they&#039;re worth investigating anyway... you never know what you&#039;ll learn. Many things were invented or discovered pseudo-serendipitously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, the claims that ASC have treated 70-odd diseases are... <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/david_prentices_shoddy_stem_ce.php" rel="nofollow">exaggerated</a>. Assuming that those guys are right about it, anyway.</p>
<p>Even if ESC won't treat anything, I think they're worth investigating anyway... you never know what you'll learn. Many things were invented or discovered pseudo-serendipitously.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8790</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8790</guid>
		<description>Hit enter too soon.  By exaggerated, I mean that some opponents of embryonic stem cell research have been making the claim that adult stem cells can in fact do everything embryonic stem cells can, and that therefore embryonic stem cell research is unnecessary as well as (allegedly) immoral.

Oh.  And thanks. ^.^</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hit enter too soon.  By exaggerated, I mean that some opponents of embryonic stem cell research have been making the claim that adult stem cells can in fact do everything embryonic stem cells can, and that therefore embryonic stem cell research is unnecessary as well as (allegedly) immoral.</p>
<p>Oh.  And thanks. ^.^</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8789</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8789</guid>
		<description>Ah.  Let me clarify: I believe you&#039;re correct that adult stem cells have been shown to be effective for treating some conditions, but my reading has led me to believe there is fairly serious doubt among researchers as to whether they will be effective for the full range of conditions potentially treatable by emryonic stem cells, and there is reason to believe that they are not as flexible as emyronic stem cells.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah.  Let me clarify: I believe you're correct that adult stem cells have been shown to be effective for treating some conditions, but my reading has led me to believe there is fairly serious doubt among researchers as to whether they will be effective for the full range of conditions potentially treatable by emryonic stem cells, and there is reason to believe that they are not as flexible as emyronic stem cells.</p>
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		<title>By: TK</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8786</link>
		<dc:creator>TK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8786</guid>
		<description>Alex, far be it from me to debate the author of one of the most cogent pieces I&#039;ve
ever seen (&quot;11 Questions&quot;) --- I just thought that adult stem cell therapies were not in the &quot;doubt&quot; or &quot;efficacy&quot; or &quot;exaggerated&quot; stage, but in fact are currently being applied as real treatments for real conditions, whereas embryonics is still in its infancy. I am NOT an opponent of embryonics for the same reason I&#039;m not opposed to heart transplants...just wondering about the facts. (21st Century Science &amp; Technology Magazine, Winter 2001-02)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, far be it from me to debate the author of one of the most cogent pieces I've<br />
ever seen ("11 Questions") --- I just thought that adult stem cell therapies were not in the "doubt" or "efficacy" or "exaggerated" stage, but in fact are currently being applied as real treatments for real conditions, whereas embryonics is still in its infancy. I am NOT an opponent of embryonics for the same reason I'm not opposed to heart transplants...just wondering about the facts. (21st Century Science &amp; Technology Magazine, Winter 2001-02)</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8785</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8785</guid>
		<description>Not to mention that the promise and utility of adult stem cells seems to be greatly exaggerated by opponents of embryonic stem cell research, and there are apparently serious doubts as to their efficacy and the broadness of their applicability.  I don&#039;t, unfortunately, have time to dig up references...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention that the promise and utility of adult stem cells seems to be greatly exaggerated by opponents of embryonic stem cell research, and there are apparently serious doubts as to their efficacy and the broadness of their applicability.  I don't, unfortunately, have time to dig up references...</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8763</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/10/the-end-of-faith.html#comment-8763</guid>
		<description>Ebon,

I&#039;m glad someone agrees with me that people like Harris and Dawkins deserve at least some criticism.  I don&#039;t like the way the freethought community drops its skeptical bent and critical appraisal of arguments when they review the writing of some of the modern-day &quot;heroes&quot; in the culture wars.  Sycophantic praise for these guys (and Dennett too, but it is much harder to point out flaws with his writing, as he is much more cautious and credible generally) is the antithesis of the values we freethinkers stand for.  Plus, Dawkins and Harris can be superficial in their approach to religion, ignoring serious rebuttals and hand-waving when they could get serious and deep.

TK,

You&#039;re right that it&#039;s legal in the US (so far), but many states are actually seeking some sorts of restrictions, plus the restrictions passed by Congress on things like cloning and &quot;fetal farming&quot;.

But, the point is valid that religious opposition is the reason that federal funding is completely absent from the research program.  And, inarguably, the otherwise-present, crucial millions of dollars that are being witheld would speed up the discoveries and cures that are, instead, impeded by ancient dogmas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebon,</p>
<p>I'm glad someone agrees with me that people like Harris and Dawkins deserve at least some criticism.  I don't like the way the freethought community drops its skeptical bent and critical appraisal of arguments when they review the writing of some of the modern-day "heroes" in the culture wars.  Sycophantic praise for these guys (and Dennett too, but it is much harder to point out flaws with his writing, as he is much more cautious and credible generally) is the antithesis of the values we freethinkers stand for.  Plus, Dawkins and Harris can be superficial in their approach to religion, ignoring serious rebuttals and hand-waving when they could get serious and deep.</p>
<p>TK,</p>
<p>You're right that it's legal in the US (so far), but many states are actually seeking some sorts of restrictions, plus the restrictions passed by Congress on things like cloning and "fetal farming".</p>
<p>But, the point is valid that religious opposition is the reason that federal funding is completely absent from the research program.  And, inarguably, the otherwise-present, crucial millions of dollars that are being witheld would speed up the discoveries and cures that are, instead, impeded by ancient dogmas.</p>
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