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	<title>Comments on: Religion&#039;s Harm to Women</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html</link>
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		<title>By: Janet Greene</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-44127</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 05:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-44127</guid>
		<description>I grew up as an evangelical christian. As a woman, I did not realize what a beating our self-esteem takes being a part of that belief system. I went through years of agonizing searching for truth and eventually found freedom from christianity. I am now a happy, moral, and grateful atheist.  Thanks for this article - I have forwarded it on to all my friends (some of whom are christian and will probably burn me to death now lol)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up as an evangelical christian. As a woman, I did not realize what a beating our self-esteem takes being a part of that belief system. I went through years of agonizing searching for truth and eventually found freedom from christianity. I am now a happy, moral, and grateful atheist.  Thanks for this article - I have forwarded it on to all my friends (some of whom are christian and will probably burn me to death now lol)</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39311</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39311</guid>
		<description>DB,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps you like many Christians interpreted that through the lens of our cultural beliefs and not how God intended. Another way of looking at this scripture is as a warning.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Except that god specifically states that he is the one doing it.
&lt;blockquote&gt;They are predictions and prophecies, laying out the penalties that were to fall on the entire earth as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin. Like the parent who gives a disobedient child time out, God announces the consequences of sin.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Consequences that come directly from god.  It&#039;s not like in a human situation where if the child doesn&#039;t listen and suffers from consequences that are a part of natural law.  (For example, if a child doesn&#039;t listen and grabs a hot pot and burns itself, then the consequences were simply a result of the way nature is, in that hot items burn us.)  god, however, makes all the consequences, even those born of natural law, because god set up nature and that natural law.  If childbirth hurts, it&#039;s because god made it hurt.  If a consequence of sin is that women will be abused by their husbands, it&#039;s because god made the world work that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DB,</p>
<blockquote><p>Perhaps you like many Christians interpreted that through the lens of our cultural beliefs and not how God intended. Another way of looking at this scripture is as a warning.</p></blockquote>
<p>Except that god specifically states that he is the one doing it.</p>
<blockquote><p>They are predictions and prophecies, laying out the penalties that were to fall on the entire earth as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin. Like the parent who gives a disobedient child time out, God announces the consequences of sin.</p></blockquote>
<p>Consequences that come directly from god.  It's not like in a human situation where if the child doesn't listen and suffers from consequences that are a part of natural law.  (For example, if a child doesn't listen and grabs a hot pot and burns itself, then the consequences were simply a result of the way nature is, in that hot items burn us.)  god, however, makes all the consequences, even those born of natural law, because god set up nature and that natural law.  If childbirth hurts, it's because god made it hurt.  If a consequence of sin is that women will be abused by their husbands, it's because god made the world work that way.</p>
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		<title>By: mikespeir</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39306</link>
		<dc:creator>mikespeir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39306</guid>
		<description>While I take the point of your first paragraph and agree with you, Equality4Women, I think your second paragraph is unrealistic.  Nature is notoriously un-PC.  The point has been made many times in other contexts, that morality comes of our ability to rise above nature and make ourselves better than it ever could.  The natural, biological tendency is for males to have multiple females, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone.  However, that&#039;s not a very emotionally satisfying arrangement and leads to the kinds of grief expressed by you and others.  It would be even worse the other way around.  (The guys would probably end up knocking each other off until only one remained.  [Although, more realistically, in our society they would probably just leave the marriage/relationship.])  Far better in my opinion to simply make a rule: one man to one woman.  (And we are talking male-female relationships here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I take the point of your first paragraph and agree with you, Equality4Women, I think your second paragraph is unrealistic.  Nature is notoriously un-PC.  The point has been made many times in other contexts, that morality comes of our ability to rise above nature and make ourselves better than it ever could.  The natural, biological tendency is for males to have multiple females, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone.  However, that's not a very emotionally satisfying arrangement and leads to the kinds of grief expressed by you and others.  It would be even worse the other way around.  (The guys would probably end up knocking each other off until only one remained.  [Although, more realistically, in our society they would probably just leave the marriage/relationship.])  Far better in my opinion to simply make a rule: one man to one woman.  (And we are talking male-female relationships here.)</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39303</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39303</guid>
		<description>DB, two questions:

1) the evidence that your interpretation is more likely to be correct than others is...?
2) your argument helps the case of Christianity and/or refutes the thesis of the original post how...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DB, two questions:</p>
<p>1) the evidence that your interpretation is more likely to be correct than others is...?<br />
2) your argument helps the case of Christianity and/or refutes the thesis of the original post how...?</p>
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		<title>By: DB</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39298</link>
		<dc:creator>DB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39298</guid>
		<description>Just a thought, 

You used the scripture; 

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.—Genesis 3:16 

Perhaps you like many Christians interpreted that through the lens of our cultural beliefs and not how God intended. Another way of looking at this scripture is as a warning. When sin corrupted the human heart, it set in motion a power struggle between husband and wife. In spite of the attraction a man and woman may have toward each other, sinful pride results in each one’s trying to control the other. Since men are normally stronger physically, they are more likely to use force to accomplish their will, leading to abuse, whereas women are more likely to use subtle manipulation to take advantage of a man’s weakness. 

Gen. 3:16b is addressed to Eve, not to Adam. Like God’s other words to Adam and the serpent, they are statements, not commands. They are predictions and prophecies, laying out the penalties that were to fall on the entire earth as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin. Like the parent who gives a disobedient child time out, God announces the consequences of sin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a thought, </p>
<p>You used the scripture; </p>
<p>Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.—Genesis 3:16 </p>
<p>Perhaps you like many Christians interpreted that through the lens of our cultural beliefs and not how God intended. Another way of looking at this scripture is as a warning. When sin corrupted the human heart, it set in motion a power struggle between husband and wife. In spite of the attraction a man and woman may have toward each other, sinful pride results in each one’s trying to control the other. Since men are normally stronger physically, they are more likely to use force to accomplish their will, leading to abuse, whereas women are more likely to use subtle manipulation to take advantage of a man’s weakness. </p>
<p>Gen. 3:16b is addressed to Eve, not to Adam. Like God’s other words to Adam and the serpent, they are statements, not commands. They are predictions and prophecies, laying out the penalties that were to fall on the entire earth as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin. Like the parent who gives a disobedient child time out, God announces the consequences of sin.</p>
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		<title>By: Equality4Women</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39045</link>
		<dc:creator>Equality4Women</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-39045</guid>
		<description>Are there any cases of polygamy where the women have &quot;TRULY&quot; been given the freedom to choose or have they just been brainwashed since childhood that this is a normal and acceptable way to live?  Also, men and women have trouble enough making decisions in a household in a fair and equitable manner.  How on earth can each of these women in a polygamous relationship have equality, and have an equal voice in decision making?  Every example that I have seen on documentaries has included a hierarchy of sorts, 1st wife, 2nd wife, 3rd wife ..... how can that not invoke bitterness, jealousy and resentment?  I can&#039;t imagine that a mature and independent woman who has not been brainwashed by some cult or Mormon religion would actually choose to be nothing more than a convenient solution for a man&#039;s sexual boredom.  

Case in point ... Has anyone ever heard of Polygamous communities where there is One Wife that is the Leader of the household, who has several Husbands?  Think of it ladies .... 1st husband could be the Provider with great income, 2nd Husband could be the Sensitive Caring Guy that actually is fun to be with and talk to ...3rd Husband could be the Handyman that can build and fix anything ...4th Husband could be the Gourmet Cook and Coach for Little League ... 5th Husband could be the Romantic one that sweeps you off to Paris or Hawaii and 6th Husband could be the intellectual or artist or whatever to complete the MALE Harem of Servants who of course would be required to SUBMIT to his WIFE!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are there any cases of polygamy where the women have "TRULY" been given the freedom to choose or have they just been brainwashed since childhood that this is a normal and acceptable way to live?  Also, men and women have trouble enough making decisions in a household in a fair and equitable manner.  How on earth can each of these women in a polygamous relationship have equality, and have an equal voice in decision making?  Every example that I have seen on documentaries has included a hierarchy of sorts, 1st wife, 2nd wife, 3rd wife ..... how can that not invoke bitterness, jealousy and resentment?  I can't imagine that a mature and independent woman who has not been brainwashed by some cult or Mormon religion would actually choose to be nothing more than a convenient solution for a man's sexual boredom.  </p>
<p>Case in point ... Has anyone ever heard of Polygamous communities where there is One Wife that is the Leader of the household, who has several Husbands?  Think of it ladies .... 1st husband could be the Provider with great income, 2nd Husband could be the Sensitive Caring Guy that actually is fun to be with and talk to ...3rd Husband could be the Handyman that can build and fix anything ...4th Husband could be the Gourmet Cook and Coach for Little League ... 5th Husband could be the Romantic one that sweeps you off to Paris or Hawaii and 6th Husband could be the intellectual or artist or whatever to complete the MALE Harem of Servants who of course would be required to SUBMIT to his WIFE!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10197</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10197</guid>
		<description>Ebonmuse,

Good article, with just one small nit to pick.

&lt;blockquote&gt;...Most notable is the Mormon church, which from its beginning endorsed polygamous marriage...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In &lt;i&gt;Under the Banner of Heaven&lt;/i&gt;, Jon Krakauer pointed out that Joseph Smith wasn&#039;t originally a polygamist. It wasn&#039;t until sometime after he was married (supposedly happily) that he received the revelation that men needed to be polygamous. His wife was so upset by this revelation that she formed a splinter group of Mormons--one of the few of that era that still exists to this day.

It would probably be more correct to say, &quot;from its very early days,&quot; instead of, &quot;from its beginning.&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebonmuse,</p>
<p>Good article, with just one small nit to pick.</p>
<blockquote><p>...Most notable is the Mormon church, which from its beginning endorsed polygamous marriage...</p></blockquote>
<p>In <i>Under the Banner of Heaven</i>, Jon Krakauer pointed out that Joseph Smith wasn't originally a polygamist. It wasn't until sometime after he was married (supposedly happily) that he received the revelation that men needed to be polygamous. His wife was so upset by this revelation that she formed a splinter group of Mormons--one of the few of that era that still exists to this day.</p>
<p>It would probably be more correct to say, "from its very early days," instead of, "from its beginning."<br />
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		<title>By: jeromy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10194</link>
		<dc:creator>jeromy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10194</guid>
		<description>Andrea, thank you for your kind comment. You wrote &quot;While I&#039;m certain that women in Islamic countries in general are treated worse than in the west, I don&#039;t think a majority of the muslim men would risk a womans&#039; life for a piece of plywood.&quot;

Well, I&#039;m sorry to tell you that I have had way too much experience with the people, and you are wrong. Muslim men, in Islamic Arab and Persian nations, will and do routinely treat their women exactly the way I depicted above. It is not the exception, it is the rule, the rule of law. You are probably thinking about Muslim women in America and other western nations, who voluntarily accept Islam. Western men and women who adopt islam are not considered to be brethren by those in arab and persian nations, they are considered to be infidels, because they live with and accept the ways of infidels.

Arab Muslim women do not have a choice of religion, or lack thereof. They cannot choose, as we do, to be Muslim or Christian or Atheist or anything else. If an arab or persian woman&#039;s husband is muslim, she is muslim, or she will be either killed or placed in prison or enslaved or, if very lucky, shown the borders of her land.

If you doubt this, I invite you to go there and see for yourself. If you are female, please go with a man.

Christianity certainly has its problems with women&#039;s rights, but most of these issues are self-inflicted. The exception can be seen in the LDS polygamy cases. Christianity  rarely practices its doctrine. It is the doctrine that is evil, the people themselves, for the most part, are not.

Islam, on the other hand, is very rarely a choice for a woman, and is the equivalence of slavery. The funny thing is...even a slave can be happy to be a slave. That is the very reason Islam fights against us. If you ask them, they will tell you that they do not wish their people to see the blasphemous things represented in the west. This is their excuse for isolating their populations. The reality, of course, is that the men are primitive religious freaks who enjoy maintaining power through their religious laws, and through the threat of death. The difference between Christians and Muslims is that Muslims (of Arab and Persian nations) actually practice their doctrine, which is inherently evil, while Christians for the most part do not follow their doctrine.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrea, thank you for your kind comment. You wrote "While I'm certain that women in Islamic countries in general are treated worse than in the west, I don't think a majority of the muslim men would risk a womans' life for a piece of plywood."</p>
<p>Well, I'm sorry to tell you that I have had way too much experience with the people, and you are wrong. Muslim men, in Islamic Arab and Persian nations, will and do routinely treat their women exactly the way I depicted above. It is not the exception, it is the rule, the rule of law. You are probably thinking about Muslim women in America and other western nations, who voluntarily accept Islam. Western men and women who adopt islam are not considered to be brethren by those in arab and persian nations, they are considered to be infidels, because they live with and accept the ways of infidels.</p>
<p>Arab Muslim women do not have a choice of religion, or lack thereof. They cannot choose, as we do, to be Muslim or Christian or Atheist or anything else. If an arab or persian woman's husband is muslim, she is muslim, or she will be either killed or placed in prison or enslaved or, if very lucky, shown the borders of her land.</p>
<p>If you doubt this, I invite you to go there and see for yourself. If you are female, please go with a man.</p>
<p>Christianity certainly has its problems with women's rights, but most of these issues are self-inflicted. The exception can be seen in the LDS polygamy cases. Christianity  rarely practices its doctrine. It is the doctrine that is evil, the people themselves, for the most part, are not.</p>
<p>Islam, on the other hand, is very rarely a choice for a woman, and is the equivalence of slavery. The funny thing is...even a slave can be happy to be a slave. That is the very reason Islam fights against us. If you ask them, they will tell you that they do not wish their people to see the blasphemous things represented in the west. This is their excuse for isolating their populations. The reality, of course, is that the men are primitive religious freaks who enjoy maintaining power through their religious laws, and through the threat of death. The difference between Christians and Muslims is that Muslims (of Arab and Persian nations) actually practice their doctrine, which is inherently evil, while Christians for the most part do not follow their doctrine.<br />
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		<title>By: andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10167</link>
		<dc:creator>andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10167</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s another lovely example how women are considered just things by Christianity:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15701301/site/newsweek/  Just love the phrase about &quot;turning over&quot; your daughter to someone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here's another lovely example how women are considered just things by Christianity:  <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15701301/site/newsweek/" rel="nofollow">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15701301/site/newsweek/</a>  Just love the phrase about "turning over" your daughter to someone.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10166</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10166</guid>
		<description>lpetrich:

That reminds me (I may have mentioned this) of a particular rant from a particular friend of mine following an extended (online) argument with a young man in Egypt who thought retrodictive readings of the Koran proved its divine inspiration and couldn&#039;t get it through his head that she might have reasons for her choice of jeans and a t-shirt as attire other than wanting to be looked at and desired or, as he put it, &quot;tempting&quot; men. *eyeroll*  And this guy apparently seemed to be a moderate Muslim in most ways, judging by the log snippets she forwarded.  Really shows you just how far Islam has to go...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lpetrich:</p>
<p>That reminds me (I may have mentioned this) of a particular rant from a particular friend of mine following an extended (online) argument with a young man in Egypt who thought retrodictive readings of the Koran proved its divine inspiration and couldn't get it through his head that she might have reasons for her choice of jeans and a t-shirt as attire other than wanting to be looked at and desired or, as he put it, "tempting" men. *eyeroll*  And this guy apparently seemed to be a moderate Muslim in most ways, judging by the log snippets she forwarded.  Really shows you just how far Islam has to go...</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10146</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 14:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10146</guid>
		<description>From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Religion&amp;loid=8.0.360591216&amp;par=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this news source&lt;/a&gt; comes

&lt;blockquote&gt;Tehran, 16 Nov. (AKI) - The hardline administration of president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday introduced new restrictions on women. In Iran&#039;s National Security Council, women must now work in separate rooms from men, and may not attend meetings with their male colleagues. Segregation in the school system has been extended to teachers as well as pupils: at all levels, girls&#039; schools may only be staffed by female teachers, who may not teach at boys&#039; schools and institutes.

In universities, where male and female students have for some time sat in separate areas, CCTV cameras have been installed to monitor contact between the two sexes. The first woman-only hospitals are due to open soon, the health ministry has announced.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;m at a loss for words.

Also, in Richard Dawkins&#039;s documentary &lt;i&gt;Root of All Evil?&lt;/i&gt;, RD interviewed an Islamist who charged that Western men make &quot;their&quot; women dress like whores, or at least allow women to dress like whores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From <a href="http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Religion&#038;loid=8.0.360591216&#038;par=0" rel="nofollow">this news source</a> comes</p>
<blockquote><p>Tehran, 16 Nov. (AKI) - The hardline administration of president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday introduced new restrictions on women. In Iran's National Security Council, women must now work in separate rooms from men, and may not attend meetings with their male colleagues. Segregation in the school system has been extended to teachers as well as pupils: at all levels, girls' schools may only be staffed by female teachers, who may not teach at boys' schools and institutes.</p>
<p>In universities, where male and female students have for some time sat in separate areas, CCTV cameras have been installed to monitor contact between the two sexes. The first woman-only hospitals are due to open soon, the health ministry has announced.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm at a loss for words.</p>
<p>Also, in Richard Dawkins's documentary <i>Root of All Evil?</i>, RD interviewed an Islamist who charged that Western men make "their" women dress like whores, or at least allow women to dress like whores.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10140</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/religions-harm-to-women.html#comment-10140</guid>
		<description>Also, an employee, and in a volunteer service a soldier, voluntarily chose to enter the position in question.  I&#039;m reasonably sure no one chooses to be born female.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, an employee, and in a volunteer service a soldier, voluntarily chose to enter the position in question.  I'm reasonably sure no one chooses to be born female.</p>
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