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	<title>Comments on: The Keys to Heaven</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed,  7 Jan 2009 07:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-10062</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-10062</guid>
		<description>Great point, Ebonmuse. Why is the Church so selective in its condemnation of those who disobey it?

And as to Nazism, the Church had never excommunicated Catholic Nazis, even Hitler himself, though it had excommunicated Communists. And this is even after how the Nazis treated France and Poland and other Catholic countries; the Pope is supposed to be the Pope of all Catholics, right? And even after the Nazis were defeated, though one might expect a Church that celebrates martyrdom to relish an opportunity to advertise itself with some new martyrdoms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great point, Ebonmuse. Why is the Church so selective in its condemnation of those who disobey it?</p>
<p>And as to Nazism, the Church had never excommunicated Catholic Nazis, even Hitler himself, though it had excommunicated Communists. And this is even after how the Nazis treated France and Poland and other Catholic countries; the Pope is supposed to be the Pope of all Catholics, right? And even after the Nazis were defeated, though one might expect a Church that celebrates martyrdom to relish an opportunity to advertise itself with some new martyrdoms.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9680</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9680</guid>
		<description>Regarding the Catholic church:

I would point out that the church has also gone on record as opposing the death penalty and the war in Iraq; yet no candidate's support for either of those policies was ever cited as even a potential reason to consider denying them communion. Similarly, although the church also supports humanitarian work in Third World countries and elsewhere and claims that they consider helping the poor to be a divine mandate, no candidate's opposition to progressive social legislation got them labeled a bad Catholic. On the contrary, it seems that their policy of spiritual blackmail is being wielded exclusively against liberal political factions, and that is why I called it a cynical tactic.

Yes, I'm aware that the church considers abortion a "more serious" issue than the war. That doesn't undermine my point, but reinforces it: while Catholicism apparently considers a two-day-old embryo to be a full human being worthy of all possible protection, the widespread destruction of &lt;i&gt;actual&lt;/i&gt; grown human beings does not seem to arouse their opposition to the same degree. I maintain that their underlying policies are constructed to favor a specific set of political causes, and I do not think it is at all unfair to say that those causes tend to be the ones that will most directly and tangibly benefit the Catholic church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the Catholic church:</p>
<p>I would point out that the church has also gone on record as opposing the death penalty and the war in Iraq; yet no candidate's support for either of those policies was ever cited as even a potential reason to consider denying them communion. Similarly, although the church also supports humanitarian work in Third World countries and elsewhere and claims that they consider helping the poor to be a divine mandate, no candidate's opposition to progressive social legislation got them labeled a bad Catholic. On the contrary, it seems that their policy of spiritual blackmail is being wielded exclusively against liberal political factions, and that is why I called it a cynical tactic.</p>
<p>Yes, I'm aware that the church considers abortion a "more serious" issue than the war. That doesn't undermine my point, but reinforces it: while Catholicism apparently considers a two-day-old embryo to be a full human being worthy of all possible protection, the widespread destruction of <i>actual</i> grown human beings does not seem to arouse their opposition to the same degree. I maintain that their underlying policies are constructed to favor a specific set of political causes, and I do not think it is at all unfair to say that those causes tend to be the ones that will most directly and tangibly benefit the Catholic church.</p>
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		<title>By: Secular Planet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9495</link>
		<dc:creator>Secular Planet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 03:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9495</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;That's why I have a problem. They don't speak out against genocide, but do speak out against scientific research which kills no more human lives than a blood test.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, that's exactly my point. It's not that you object to the church being active in politics &lt;i&gt;in principle&lt;/i&gt;; it's that you don't agree with church's politics. If you don't like the church admonishing its members for being pro-choice, then frame your criticism as objection to their particular policies, not their activity in politics itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>That's why I have a problem. They don't speak out against genocide, but do speak out against scientific research which kills no more human lives than a blood test.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, that's exactly my point. It's not that you object to the church being active in politics <i>in principle</i>; it's that you don't agree with church's politics. If you don't like the church admonishing its members for being pro-choice, then frame your criticism as objection to their particular policies, not their activity in politics itself.</p>
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		<title>By: The Ridger</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9483</link>
		<dc:creator>The Ridger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 00:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9483</guid>
		<description>I guess God abandoned Rick and the GOP today, though. 

Now what? Has God's will be thwarted by evil men, or did (different) evil men misinterpret that will?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess God abandoned Rick and the GOP today, though. </p>
<p>Now what? Has God's will be thwarted by evil men, or did (different) evil men misinterpret that will?</p>
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		<title>By: Infophile</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9457</link>
		<dc:creator>Infophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 14:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9457</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I often read criticism that the church did not excommunicate Hitler, i.e., that the church didn't interfere in politics. I then read criticism that the church does threaten pro-choice politicians with excommunication, i.e., that the church does interfere in politics. This shows me that for most people, it's not a matter of principle whether the church interferes; it's whether they agree with the church.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here's what it looks like to me:

Politician 1: Murder all the Jews!

Church: You're good.

Politician 2: Fund stem cell research!

Church: Murderer! You're excommunicated!

That's why I have a problem. They don't speak out against genocide, but do speak out against scientific research which kills no more human lives than a blood test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I often read criticism that the church did not excommunicate Hitler, i.e., that the church didn't interfere in politics. I then read criticism that the church does threaten pro-choice politicians with excommunication, i.e., that the church does interfere in politics. This shows me that for most people, it's not a matter of principle whether the church interferes; it's whether they agree with the church.</p></blockquote>
<p>Here's what it looks like to me:</p>
<p>Politician 1: Murder all the Jews!</p>
<p>Church: You're good.</p>
<p>Politician 2: Fund stem cell research!</p>
<p>Church: Murderer! You're excommunicated!</p>
<p>That's why I have a problem. They don't speak out against genocide, but do speak out against scientific research which kills no more human lives than a blood test.</p>
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		<title>By: O. Wolcott</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9446</link>
		<dc:creator>O. Wolcott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 05:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9446</guid>
		<description>To expound on what Secular Planet wrote and in the spirit of election day, as a Catholic deconvert I have seen first hand exactly what SP points out.  Jennifer Granholm the incumbent Governor of Michigan, whom I believe was re-elected, found herself in such a compromising position several years ago.  She was a member of the Catholic church I grew up attending (in my home town) before I became an apostate/atheist.  Long story short, Granholm came under fire for her outspoken support of abortion - picketing and protests naturally ensued.  When all was said and done she left the parrish (voluntarily or not I'm not sure, though the outcry was palpable) and one of the priests who vocally supported her soon left for another parrish.  On a side note the afformentioned priest is one of the most rational thinking believers I've ever met.  To this day there is still a huge cognative dissonance for my part as to how he is a believer.  In any event the sitting Governor of Michigan left the congregation over the abortion issue.  In that case even one of the most powerful political figures, if not the most powerful, essentially lost her good graces over one issue.  I agree with SP; you can't truly be a "good Catholic" if you're "pro-choice", ecclesiastically speaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To expound on what Secular Planet wrote and in the spirit of election day, as a Catholic deconvert I have seen first hand exactly what SP points out.  Jennifer Granholm the incumbent Governor of Michigan, whom I believe was re-elected, found herself in such a compromising position several years ago.  She was a member of the Catholic church I grew up attending (in my home town) before I became an apostate/atheist.  Long story short, Granholm came under fire for her outspoken support of abortion - picketing and protests naturally ensued.  When all was said and done she left the parrish (voluntarily or not I'm not sure, though the outcry was palpable) and one of the priests who vocally supported her soon left for another parrish.  On a side note the afformentioned priest is one of the most rational thinking believers I've ever met.  To this day there is still a huge cognative dissonance for my part as to how he is a believer.  In any event the sitting Governor of Michigan left the congregation over the abortion issue.  In that case even one of the most powerful political figures, if not the most powerful, essentially lost her good graces over one issue.  I agree with SP; you can't truly be a "good Catholic" if you're "pro-choice", ecclesiastically speaking.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Hardwick</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9445</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Hardwick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 05:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9445</guid>
		<description>I suspect that anyone who was tested for knowledge of "every religion, in every era" would be found wanting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that anyone who was tested for knowledge of "every religion, in every era" would be found wanting.</p>
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		<title>By: Secular Planet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9428</link>
		<dc:creator>Secular Planet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/11/the-keys-to-heaven.html#comment-9428</guid>
		<description>Regarding the refusal of communion, as a deconvert from Catholicism, I still appreciate the church's perspective on this matter. If you truly believe that all abortion is murder, then you cannot simply ignore a politician's vote to keep it legal and pretend everything is OK. There is a major conflict between the politician's votes and the church's teaching which must be addressed in some manner if the sacrament is to mean anything at all. The church is saving you cannot be a pro-choice and a "good Catholic." It's just a simple matter that if do things directly contrary to church doctrine, then don't expect to be welcomed with open arms.

I often read criticism that the church did not excommunicate Hitler, i.e., that the church didn't interfere in politics. I then read criticism that the church does threaten pro-choice politicians with excommunication, i.e., that the church does interfere in politics. This shows me that for most people, it's not a matter of principle whether the church interferes; it's whether they agree with the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the refusal of communion, as a deconvert from Catholicism, I still appreciate the church's perspective on this matter. If you truly believe that all abortion is murder, then you cannot simply ignore a politician's vote to keep it legal and pretend everything is OK. There is a major conflict between the politician's votes and the church's teaching which must be addressed in some manner if the sacrament is to mean anything at all. The church is saving you cannot be a pro-choice and a "good Catholic." It's just a simple matter that if do things directly contrary to church doctrine, then don't expect to be welcomed with open arms.</p>
<p>I often read criticism that the church did not excommunicate Hitler, i.e., that the church didn't interfere in politics. I then read criticism that the church does threaten pro-choice politicians with excommunication, i.e., that the church does interfere in politics. This shows me that for most people, it's not a matter of principle whether the church interferes; it's whether they agree with the church.</p>
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