Comments on: The Gospel of Consumerism http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Tue, 6 Jan 2009 22:22:11 +0000 By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-42435 Ebonmuse Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:57:14 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-42435 I have to respect a rant like that. :) The attitude you describe so well, Polly, used to be found only among a few reckless people. When it's rare, capitalism can deal with that rapacious greed, and even channel it into productive avenues. But in the past few years, it's come to afflict a significant percentage of society in general, and the result is our current economic crisis. This situation is the inevitable result of a mentality that teaches people that they are entitled to every material luxury regardless of their financial status, that you can afford anything just by going deeper into debt, that there will always be a bigger fool. Well, we've run out of bigger fools, and the entire gigantic bubble has burst; and we're going to have a long, hard, painful slog ahead of us to put the pieces back together. The worst part is that everyone who's to blame for our situation made the decisions they did for reasons that seemed perfectly logical at the time. When real estate prices are soaring, it makes sense to buy a home on credit and then hope to pay down the mortgage by extracting equity from the property. When all your competitors are making a fortune on subprime mortgage CDOs, it makes sense to get into that market as well. When the spigots of cash are flowing, it makes sense to stretch yourself and buy or merge with companies that would have been beyond your financial reach. And if you're an advertiser, it makes sense to encourage poor people to buy things they can't afford on credit, making handsome profits and consoling yourself that you didn't force them to make any unwise decision. The logic of individual selfishness, in the aggregate, leads to group disaster: it's the Prisoner's Dilemma breaking out on a planetary scale. And the government, whose normal role it is to prevent such situations from arising, was just as unprepared as they were to keep the peace in Iraq or evacuate New Orleans. I have to respect a rant like that. :)

The attitude you describe so well, Polly, used to be found only among a few reckless people. When it's rare, capitalism can deal with that rapacious greed, and even channel it into productive avenues. But in the past few years, it's come to afflict a significant percentage of society in general, and the result is our current economic crisis. This situation is the inevitable result of a mentality that teaches people that they are entitled to every material luxury regardless of their financial status, that you can afford anything just by going deeper into debt, that there will always be a bigger fool. Well, we've run out of bigger fools, and the entire gigantic bubble has burst; and we're going to have a long, hard, painful slog ahead of us to put the pieces back together.

The worst part is that everyone who's to blame for our situation made the decisions they did for reasons that seemed perfectly logical at the time. When real estate prices are soaring, it makes sense to buy a home on credit and then hope to pay down the mortgage by extracting equity from the property. When all your competitors are making a fortune on subprime mortgage CDOs, it makes sense to get into that market as well. When the spigots of cash are flowing, it makes sense to stretch yourself and buy or merge with companies that would have been beyond your financial reach. And if you're an advertiser, it makes sense to encourage poor people to buy things they can't afford on credit, making handsome profits and consoling yourself that you didn't force them to make any unwise decision. The logic of individual selfishness, in the aggregate, leads to group disaster: it's the Prisoner's Dilemma breaking out on a planetary scale. And the government, whose normal role it is to prevent such situations from arising, was just as unprepared as they were to keep the peace in Iraq or evacuate New Orleans.

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-42400 Polly Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:23:15 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-42400 This is a pretty old thread, so hopefuly, I can just rant about what's been bugging me about hyperconsumerism, especially recently. I cannot say how much I DETEST all the shop til you drop bullshit that I see all around me. All my life I watched my parents (who each made a multiple of the median family income) spend themselves deep in debt just to buy more crap. I don't think my father has ever owned a car for more than a couple years. Both of them watch, actually WATCH, HSN (the Home Shopping Network) and QVC. Seriously, who could ever have imagined a channel devoted to simply one long running string of commercials? Aren't commercials the things we try to avoid watching on other channels? They have tons of stuff, and they keep buying! Sometimes buying the same thing multiple times. If you have 2 or 3 TVs, I guess it only makes sense to have 2 or 3 DVD players and DVRS and VCRs, right? Oh, and let's make sure we can watch DVDs while on the go. So, they buy those 7" portable players, cause the screens are bigger than those tiny little iPod screens. Once you buy a Lexus you need to spend a few thousand to put TWO LCD TV's in the backseat so the people (who? I wonder) can watch TV. Oh, and now there's an even nicer model of Lexus out. Let's sell this old (1 year?) piece of junk and buy that one. GAAAAAAK! I see co-workers who I know don't make what I do (and I'm not rich) driving into the lot with brand new cars whose sticker price would give me a heart-attack. I noticed that people were actually camping out in front of a freakin' Best Buy! PATHETIC. All to get a good deal on some gadget that no one needs in the first place. I made up my mind that I was not going to buy any more gadgets a while ago. Very easy to stick to. My goal is to stop buying anything but absolute necessities...except books. I guess that's MY downfall. But, I will not be buying the latest gadget to read them - not the Kindle or the Sony Reader. Tempted though I was. They're just waaay too expensive. Houses in my neighborhood, where I grew up, and wherein I now rent, are going for 700-800K!! These same houses were 100K when I was young. They're little houses, not worth nearly that much. But, people kept buying and completely priced us out of the housing market. My wife, in exasperation, would ask me "Well, how come THESE people can afford it?" I would always respond, "They're in debt up to their eyeballs. I refuse to be a debt-slave." Lo and behold, a few years later, we have a foreclosure crisis, with a credit card crisis still looming. All because people seem to be driven to live a lifestyle that is beyond all reason and beyond their ability to pay for. Sheeple. The more you spend the more you HAVE to work. When you can't afford to stay out of the workforce because you're saddled with debt, you'll pretty much take whatever you can get. Consumer credit was allowed to expand with interest rates pushed so low that people could buy way beyond their means. All this was for the purpose of stimulating business growth. But, I could see that it was unsustainable from several years ago. How unhappy these people seem. The whole society seems frenetic and anxious. Everyone seems to be rushing toward...I don't know what. They just keep buying more junk. I don't even know where they're putting it all. In their garages, I guess, judging by all the Audi's and Infiniti's parked outside, in front of the houses. This is a pretty old thread, so hopefuly, I can just rant about what's been bugging me about hyperconsumerism, especially recently.

I cannot say how much I DETEST all the shop til you drop bullshit that I see all around me. All my life I watched my parents (who each made a multiple of the median family income) spend themselves deep in debt just to buy more crap. I don't think my father has ever owned a car for more than a couple years.

Both of them watch, actually WATCH, HSN (the Home Shopping Network) and QVC. Seriously, who could ever have imagined a channel devoted to simply one long running string of commercials? Aren't commercials the things we try to avoid watching on other channels? They have tons of stuff, and they keep buying! Sometimes buying the same thing multiple times. If you have 2 or 3 TVs, I guess it only makes sense to have 2 or 3 DVD players and DVRS and VCRs, right?

Oh, and let's make sure we can watch DVDs while on the go. So, they buy those 7" portable players, cause the screens are bigger than those tiny little iPod screens.

Once you buy a Lexus you need to spend a few thousand to put TWO LCD TV's in the backseat so the people (who? I wonder) can watch TV. Oh, and now there's an even nicer model of Lexus out. Let's sell this old (1 year?) piece of junk and buy that one. GAAAAAAK!

I see co-workers who I know don't make what I do (and I'm not rich) driving into the lot with brand new cars whose sticker price would give me a heart-attack.

I noticed that people were actually camping out in front of a freakin' Best Buy! PATHETIC. All to get a good deal on some gadget that no one needs in the first place. I made up my mind that I was not going to buy any more gadgets a while ago. Very easy to stick to. My goal is to stop buying anything but absolute necessities...except books. I guess that's MY downfall. But, I will not be buying the latest gadget to read them - not the Kindle or the Sony Reader. Tempted though I was. They're just waaay too expensive.

Houses in my neighborhood, where I grew up, and wherein I now rent, are going for 700-800K!! These same houses were 100K when I was young. They're little houses, not worth nearly that much. But, people kept buying and completely priced us out of the housing market.
My wife, in exasperation, would ask me "Well, how come THESE people can afford it?" I would always respond, "They're in debt up to their eyeballs. I refuse to be a debt-slave."
Lo and behold, a few years later, we have a foreclosure crisis, with a credit card crisis still looming. All because people seem to be driven to live a lifestyle that is beyond all reason and beyond their ability to pay for.

Sheeple.

The more you spend the more you HAVE to work. When you can't afford to stay out of the workforce because you're saddled with debt, you'll pretty much take whatever you can get. Consumer credit was allowed to expand with interest rates pushed so low that people could buy way beyond their means. All this was for the purpose of stimulating business growth. But, I could see that it was unsustainable from several years ago.

How unhappy these people seem. The whole society seems frenetic and anxious. Everyone seems to be rushing toward...I don't know what. They just keep buying more junk. I don't even know where they're putting it all. In their garages, I guess, judging by all the Audi's and Infiniti's parked outside, in front of the houses.

]]> By: Ben Ostrow http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-42388 Ben Ostrow Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:30:57 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-42388 Christopher, why must there be poverty? Nothing <b>must be</b>. Science finds all that is, only is. There exists many a thing in Human society that people find unfortunate, or even terrifying or repulsive. But these things are a part of the human condition. They are all manifestations of a certain part of human nature, all corollaries of a basic requirement. Prostitution, Rape, Violence. The former, blind lust and man's mammalian procreative heritage. The latter, ignorance and thus, fear and hatred. And anger, indignation, hopelessness, despair: These are not sustainable feelings for any individual. He or She will be broken of mind, of spirit, eventually. After this, crime, born of desperation, comes easy. Even Poverty falls in this category. These individuals may have been subject to the dark side of man themselves, or may have succumbed to it. Many may only need an initial boost to rise from destitution. A shower, a suit. These may not lead to much, but the act itself gives back a sense of worth, of humanity. I often ponder how a single, well intentioned person could alter the course of another life. The reckless, subversive and counterproductive impulses I have spoken of, can be controlled and modified. They are a product of an uncaring and often systematically hypocritical social context. These tragedies of human nature need only Christopher's apathy to persist. Christopher, why must there be poverty? Nothing must be. Science finds all that is, only is.

There exists many a thing in Human society that people find unfortunate, or even terrifying or repulsive. But these things are a part of the human condition. They are all manifestations of a certain part of human nature, all corollaries of a basic requirement. Prostitution, Rape, Violence. The former, blind lust and man's mammalian procreative heritage. The latter, ignorance and thus, fear and hatred. And anger, indignation, hopelessness, despair: These are not sustainable feelings for any individual. He or She will be broken of mind, of spirit, eventually. After this, crime, born of desperation, comes easy. Even Poverty falls in this category. These individuals may have been subject to the dark side of man themselves, or may have succumbed to it. Many may only need an initial boost to rise from destitution. A shower, a suit. These may not lead to much, but the act itself gives back a sense of worth, of humanity. I often ponder how a single, well intentioned person could alter the course of another life.

The reckless, subversive and counterproductive impulses I have spoken of, can be controlled and modified. They are a product of an uncaring and often systematically hypocritical social context.

These tragedies of human nature need only Christopher's apathy to persist.

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-11203 Alex Weaver Sun, 24 Dec 2006 23:10:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-11203 If I'm understanding Christopher's position correctly from his statements here and elsewhere, the problem with the parable is that he isn't a starfish. If I'm understanding Christopher's position correctly from his statements here and elsewhere, the problem with the parable is that he isn't a starfish.

]]> By: Nes http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-11183 Nes Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:54:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-11183 <blockquote>Some problems are, by there very nature, unsolvable. So why even try?</blockquote> Because of <a href="http://teachers.net/mentors/math/topic6351/12.23.06.00.30.14.html" rel="nofollow">starfish</a>: <blockquote>A young man is walking along the ocean and sees a beach on which thousands and thousands of starfish have washed ashore. Further along he sees an old man, walking slowly and stooping often, picking up one starfish after another and tossing each one gently into the ocean. "Why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?," he asks. "Because the sun is up and the tide is going out and if I don't throw them further in they will die." "But, old man, don't you realize there are miles and miles of beach and starfish all along it! You can't possibly save them all, you can't even save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you work all day, your efforts won't make any difference at all." The old man listened calmly and then bent down to pick up another starfish and throw it into the sea. "It made a difference to that one."</blockquote>

Some problems are, by there very nature, unsolvable. So why even try?

Because of starfish:

A young man is walking along the ocean and sees a beach on which thousands and thousands of starfish have washed ashore. Further along he sees an old man, walking slowly and stooping often, picking up one starfish after another and tossing each one gently into the ocean.

"Why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?," he asks.

"Because the sun is up and the tide is going out and if I don't throw them further in they will die."

"But, old man, don't you realize there are miles and miles of beach and starfish all along it! You can't possibly save them all, you can't even save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you work all day, your efforts won't make any difference at all."

The old man listened calmly and then bent down to pick up another starfish and throw it into the sea. "It made a difference to that one."

]]> By: Christopher http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10984 Christopher Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:59:11 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10984 Who says that I intend to? Some problems are, by there very nature, unsolvable. So why even try? Who says that I intend to?

Some problems are, by there very nature, unsolvable. So why even try?

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10946 Alex Weaver Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:29:13 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10946 There will always be some people who have more wealth than others, but there is no legitimate reason why anyone must live without adequate food, shelter, education, or medical care. Plausible sociopolitical and technological mechanisms by which this might be remedied have already been proposed in broad outline, and in many cases we as a species already have the capacity. As Darwin said of the eye's evolution, the problem of how to alleviate and eventually eliminate this sort of crushing poverty, while insuperable to the imagination, can scarcely be considered real. What is mainly needed is the willingness and the commitment to making these changes. You, frankly, are not helping. There will always be some people who have more wealth than others, but there is no legitimate reason why anyone must live without adequate food, shelter, education, or medical care. Plausible sociopolitical and technological mechanisms by which this might be remedied have already been proposed in broad outline, and in many cases we as a species already have the capacity. As Darwin said of the eye's evolution, the problem of how to alleviate and eventually eliminate this sort of crushing poverty, while insuperable to the imagination, can scarcely be considered real. What is mainly needed is the willingness and the commitment to making these changes. You, frankly, are not helping.

]]> By: vjack http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10918 vjack Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:46:36 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10918 Excellent post. I'm starting to think that American Christianity abandoned the teachings of Jesus a long time ago. Sure, they still use his name in an attempt to give their real mission the appearance of moral worth and credibility. What is their real mission? I think we are seeing an American civil religion that has big business consumerism at its core and is surrounded by the trappings of Christianity. Excellent post. I'm starting to think that American Christianity abandoned the teachings of Jesus a long time ago. Sure, they still use his name in an attempt to give their real mission the appearance of moral worth and credibility. What is their real mission? I think we are seeing an American civil religion that has big business consumerism at its core and is surrounded by the trappings of Christianity.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10907 Christopher Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:54:28 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10907 While I find the church's acceptence of consumerism as being against biblical teachings (remember the money changers of the temple?), I'm not surprised that they went down that road: consumerism is the best way to make a quick buck. I am a consumer, and I see no shame in purchasing extra comforts while others experience lack: there will always be a poor class among us and there's nothing we can do about it. Giving them money and supplies may relieve their suffering for a time, but their situation doesn't change in the end. While I find the church's acceptence of consumerism as being against biblical teachings (remember the money changers of the temple?), I'm not surprised that they went down that road: consumerism is the best way to make a quick buck.

I am a consumer, and I see no shame in purchasing extra comforts while others experience lack: there will always be a poor class among us and there's nothing we can do about it. Giving them money and supplies may relieve their suffering for a time, but their situation doesn't change in the end.

]]> By: ceetar http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10888 ceetar Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:50:09 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/12/the-gospel-of-consumerism.html#comment-10888 I agree with Stephen that giving up gift-giving is not a necessity to avoiding rampant consumerism. Rather, it should be the meaningless gifts, the gifts motivated by advertisements or hype rather then the idea that the receiver will enjoy or benefit from the gift. Gifts for the sake of gifts should be avoided whenever possible. It's a catch-22 type situation i think. Stores hype up products, advertise like crazy, open longer. Customers in turn start shopping more, and bigger. Rewarded with money for hyping up the holiday season, the stores get crazier and crazier. Take the Nintendo Wii. Some stores decided to hold back stock until this past sunday. This way they got to advertise in their flyers that they would have Wii's available. And they attracted many more people into the stores(Most of whom, given that you had to wait outside for hours before opening to get one, didn't get a Wii) for the last big weekend before Christmas. I agree with Stephen that giving up gift-giving is not a necessity to avoiding rampant consumerism. Rather, it should be the meaningless gifts, the gifts motivated by advertisements or hype rather then the idea that the receiver will enjoy or benefit from the gift. Gifts for the sake of gifts should be avoided whenever possible.

It's a catch-22 type situation i think. Stores hype up products, advertise like crazy, open longer. Customers in turn start shopping more, and bigger. Rewarded with money for hyping up the holiday season, the stores get crazier and crazier.

Take the Nintendo Wii. Some stores decided to hold back stock until this past sunday. This way they got to advertise in their flyers that they would have Wii's available. And they attracted many more people into the stores(Most of whom, given that you had to wait outside for hours before opening to get one, didn't get a Wii) for the last big weekend before Christmas.

]]>