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	<title>Comments on: New on Ebon Musings: Red Crimes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed,  7 Jan 2009 06:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-14346</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 03:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-14346</guid>
		<description>A further problem is a common association of atheism with opposition to religion. Although that is often the case, it need not be.

One can be an atheist while believing that most other people ought to believe in some religion that one considers false. Something like Plato's Royal Lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A further problem is a common association of atheism with opposition to religion. Although that is often the case, it need not be.</p>
<p>One can be an atheist while believing that most other people ought to believe in some religion that one considers false. Something like Plato's Royal Lie.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-13044</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-13044</guid>
		<description>Hmm, that's something else: Everyone remembers Moses the crow from &lt;i&gt;Animal Farm&lt;/i&gt;, right? Proof--in a literary context, anyway--that religion and totalitarianism can and do often coexist and even profit from each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, that's something else: Everyone remembers Moses the crow from <i>Animal Farm</i>, right? Proof--in a literary context, anyway--that religion and totalitarianism can and do often coexist and even profit from each other.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-13041</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-13041</guid>
		<description>KC:

&lt;i&gt;Very nice article. I'm often struck by how blind they (American Christians) are to the faith that was/is involved with Communism.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes. A lot of supposedly "thoughtful" or "liberal" religionists--and Pope Benedict, especially--claim that equal danger lies in pure faith or pure reason. They identify pure faith with Crusades, Inquisitions, and Jihads. So far so good, right? But then they identify pure reason with communism and fascism. It's an astonishingly blithe assertion to make, ignoring the massively "un-reasonable" nature of totalitarian systems. You wouldn't even need to read entire anti-communist books to know that; just 50-100 pages or so of &lt;i&gt;Animal Farm&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;Gulag Archipelago&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;Dr. Zhivago&lt;/i&gt; would teach that to you: That totalitarian systems can be just as loopy--hilarious really, if they weren't so deadly--as any convential mythological system.

It's probably the laziest thing in the world to quote Sam Harris on a thread  or blog like this but here goes anyway, "Communism or fascism are NOT what happens when people become too reasonable."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KC:</p>
<p><i>Very nice article. I'm often struck by how blind they (American Christians) are to the faith that was/is involved with Communism.</i></p>
<p>Yes. A lot of supposedly "thoughtful" or "liberal" religionists--and Pope Benedict, especially--claim that equal danger lies in pure faith or pure reason. They identify pure faith with Crusades, Inquisitions, and Jihads. So far so good, right? But then they identify pure reason with communism and fascism. It's an astonishingly blithe assertion to make, ignoring the massively "un-reasonable" nature of totalitarian systems. You wouldn't even need to read entire anti-communist books to know that; just 50-100 pages or so of <i>Animal Farm</i>, <i>Gulag Archipelago</i> or <i>Dr. Zhivago</i> would teach that to you: That totalitarian systems can be just as loopy--hilarious really, if they weren't so deadly--as any convential mythological system.</p>
<p>It's probably the laziest thing in the world to quote Sam Harris on a thread  or blog like this but here goes anyway, "Communism or fascism are NOT what happens when people become too reasonable."</p>
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		<title>By: schemanista</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-13019</link>
		<dc:creator>schemanista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-13019</guid>
		<description>I always like to point out that the Serbian atrocities were carried out by "orthodox" Christians. Likewise, at the time of the genocide, Rwanda was the most Christianized nation in Africa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always like to point out that the Serbian atrocities were carried out by "orthodox" Christians. Likewise, at the time of the genocide, Rwanda was the most Christianized nation in Africa.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12995</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12995</guid>
		<description>In &lt;i&gt;Billions and Billions&lt;/i&gt;, Carl Sagan reprints an essay called "The Common Enemy" that was published in 1988 both in the United States, in &lt;i&gt;Parade&lt;/i&gt; magazine, and in the Soviet periodical &lt;i&gt;Ogonyok&lt;/i&gt;. After reprinting the essay, he lists the changes that were made to it by Soviet censors. One in particular was the deletion of the phrase "Nothing is promised" (regarding a peaceful resolution to the Cold War) because, as Sagan explains it, "It is one of the self-congratulatory but unscientific tenets of orthodox Marxism that the ultimate triumph of Communism is foreordained by unseen historical forces."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In <i>Billions and Billions</i>, Carl Sagan reprints an essay called "The Common Enemy" that was published in 1988 both in the United States, in <i>Parade</i> magazine, and in the Soviet periodical <i>Ogonyok</i>. After reprinting the essay, he lists the changes that were made to it by Soviet censors. One in particular was the deletion of the phrase "Nothing is promised" (regarding a peaceful resolution to the Cold War) because, as Sagan explains it, "It is one of the self-congratulatory but unscientific tenets of orthodox Marxism that the ultimate triumph of Communism is foreordained by unseen historical forces."</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12994</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12994</guid>
		<description>Yes, Marxism does have something of that quality. Marxists claim that they have discovered laws of historical development that will someday result in the punishment of the wicked (the capitalist class) and the triumph of the virtuous (the working class). "Get onto the steamroller of history before it comes and flattens you!"

Bertrand Russell in his &lt;i&gt;History of Western Philosophy&lt;/i&gt; has noted this correspondence between Marxist and Xian concepts:

Yahweh = Dialectical Materialism
The Messiah = Marx
The Elect = The Proletariat
The Church = The Communist Party
The Second Coming = The Revolution
Hell = The Punishment of the Capitalists
The Millennium = The Communist Commonwealth

Not surprisingly, Marxists have their own apologetics, like claiming that Marxist theory is a method and not a body of knowledge.

-

After genetics, what other scientific disciplines might have been next to fall? Nuclear physicists successfully fought to keep their discipline from being Lysenkoized by certain Marxist ideologues who insisted that quantum mechanics is un-Marxist. It certainly departs from a billiard-ball conception of elementary particles, and it involves effects that go contrary to macroscopic-physics intuitions.

A telling point about Marxist theory was how Soviet scientists had worked and what their theorizing was like -- it was just like what Western scientists do with no Marxist dialectics in sight. I remember reading a book by some Soviet scientist on Quantum Electrodynamics (the quantum theory of electromagnetism). It looked almost exactly like what a non-Soviet scientist might write, except for a small section on Lenin and the "infinite extensibility of the electron", whatever that is.

-

Andrei Sakharov also proposed something else very notable: an explanation for the Universe's matter content, described in more detail in: &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryogenesis" rel="nofollow"&gt;Baryogenesis&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Marxism does have something of that quality. Marxists claim that they have discovered laws of historical development that will someday result in the punishment of the wicked (the capitalist class) and the triumph of the virtuous (the working class). "Get onto the steamroller of history before it comes and flattens you!"</p>
<p>Bertrand Russell in his <i>History of Western Philosophy</i> has noted this correspondence between Marxist and Xian concepts:</p>
<p>Yahweh = Dialectical Materialism<br />
The Messiah = Marx<br />
The Elect = The Proletariat<br />
The Church = The Communist Party<br />
The Second Coming = The Revolution<br />
Hell = The Punishment of the Capitalists<br />
The Millennium = The Communist Commonwealth</p>
<p>Not surprisingly, Marxists have their own apologetics, like claiming that Marxist theory is a method and not a body of knowledge.</p>
<p>-</p>
<p>After genetics, what other scientific disciplines might have been next to fall? Nuclear physicists successfully fought to keep their discipline from being Lysenkoized by certain Marxist ideologues who insisted that quantum mechanics is un-Marxist. It certainly departs from a billiard-ball conception of elementary particles, and it involves effects that go contrary to macroscopic-physics intuitions.</p>
<p>A telling point about Marxist theory was how Soviet scientists had worked and what their theorizing was like -- it was just like what Western scientists do with no Marxist dialectics in sight. I remember reading a book by some Soviet scientist on Quantum Electrodynamics (the quantum theory of electromagnetism). It looked almost exactly like what a non-Soviet scientist might write, except for a small section on Lenin and the "infinite extensibility of the electron", whatever that is.</p>
<p>-</p>
<p>Andrei Sakharov also proposed something else very notable: an explanation for the Universe's matter content, described in more detail in: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryogenesis" rel="nofollow">Baryogenesis</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12992</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12992</guid>
		<description>As I understand it, Marxist theory has something of a fatalistic slant, regarding the triumph of the proletariat as inevitable or something to this effect and seeing purpose and direction in history as a whole.  They don't refer to a god but seem to have the idea of a grand plan unfolding through history...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, Marxist theory has something of a fatalistic slant, regarding the triumph of the proletariat as inevitable or something to this effect and seeing purpose and direction in history as a whole.  They don't refer to a god but seem to have the idea of a grand plan unfolding through history...</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12989</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12989</guid>
		<description>I would not go so far as to call Communism a religion in a strict sense; its metaphysics was more-or-less naturalist. But Communism has quasi-religious elements, like the personality cults of its leaders.

Consider this &lt;a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/stalin-worship.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Hymn to Stalin&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,
Thou who broughtest man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendour of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts.&lt;/i&gt;

And the hero-worship of Mao Zedong and North Korea's two Kims. Complete with &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il" rel="nofollow"&gt;a miraculous birth&lt;/a&gt; (from Wikipedia):

&lt;blockquote&gt;Kim Jong-il's official biography also holds that his birth at Mount Paektu was foretold by a swallow, and that his birth was heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

-

It's also possible to be an atheist and to believe in non-naturalist metaphysics. Philosophical Buddhism and Taoism seem like that to me, but I'm not familiar enough with them to be able to tell for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not go so far as to call Communism a religion in a strict sense; its metaphysics was more-or-less naturalist. But Communism has quasi-religious elements, like the personality cults of its leaders.</p>
<p>Consider this <a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/stalin-worship.html" rel="nofollow">Hymn to Stalin</a>:</p>
<p><i>O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,<br />
Thou who broughtest man to birth.<br />
Thou who fructifies the earth,<br />
Thou who restorest to centuries,<br />
Thou who makest bloom the spring,<br />
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...<br />
Thou, splendour of my spring, O thou,<br />
Sun reflected by millions of hearts.</i></p>
<p>And the hero-worship of Mao Zedong and North Korea's two Kims. Complete with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il" rel="nofollow">a miraculous birth</a> (from Wikipedia):</p>
<blockquote><p>Kim Jong-il's official biography also holds that his birth at Mount Paektu was foretold by a swallow, and that his birth was heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.</p></blockquote>
<p>-</p>
<p>It's also possible to be an atheist and to believe in non-naturalist metaphysics. Philosophical Buddhism and Taoism seem like that to me, but I'm not familiar enough with them to be able to tell for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Paleoguy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12987</link>
		<dc:creator>Paleoguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12987</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the article. I am constantly hearing from a relative that as an atheist I of course am a communist and so a mass murderer and I worship man as a god all regardless of what I say I believe. It's very frustrating.

Scary looking website KC. It looks as if my relative took their courses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the article. I am constantly hearing from a relative that as an atheist I of course am a communist and so a mass murderer and I worship man as a god all regardless of what I say I believe. It's very frustrating.</p>
<p>Scary looking website KC. It looks as if my relative took their courses.</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12984</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/new-on-ebon-musings-red-crimes.html#comment-12984</guid>
		<description>Nice work, Ebonmuse, very well written. This claim about alleged atheist atrocities is a common myth that needed to be addressed. 

Atheists don't have an atheist doctrine that tells them to kill or subjugate religious believers; yet believers such as Christians and Muslims do have doctrines which tell them to kill non-believers for the sin-crime of disbelief. And while atheists have no problem denouncing the actions of atheists such as Stalin and Mao, most Christians and Muslims seem to be unable or unwilling to denounce those morally objectionable elements of their scriptures (e.g., instructions to kill apostates, blasphemers, homosexuals, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work, Ebonmuse, very well written. This claim about alleged atheist atrocities is a common myth that needed to be addressed. </p>
<p>Atheists don't have an atheist doctrine that tells them to kill or subjugate religious believers; yet believers such as Christians and Muslims do have doctrines which tell them to kill non-believers for the sin-crime of disbelief. And while atheists have no problem denouncing the actions of atheists such as Stalin and Mao, most Christians and Muslims seem to be unable or unwilling to denounce those morally objectionable elements of their scriptures (e.g., instructions to kill apostates, blasphemers, homosexuals, etc.).</p>
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