<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: A Daylight Atheism Consumer Warning</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri,  5 Sep 2008 16:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
	
		<item>
		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-17059</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 06:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-17059</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In fact, sources of true randomness are hard to come by anywhere... The CIA operates powerful radio dishes that bounce signals off the inside of the atmosphere, from which they then measure the resulting distortion of the original signal. And they STILL aren't sure they're getting a completely random result.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's not too surprising, since it's &lt;a href="http://www.cs.umaine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;impossible&lt;/a&gt; to mathematically prove that a sequence of digits is truly random (for much the same reason that one can't prove a universal negative). However, there are quite a few sources of natural randomness that we believe on strong evidentiary grounds to be fundamentally unpredictable. Most of these involve taking advantage of the intrinsically probabilistic phenomena of quantum mechanics. Services like &lt;a href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Hotbits&lt;/a&gt;, for example, serve up random bitstreams generated by measuring the radioactive decay of atoms. Other hardware random number generators sample thermal or electronic noise in a circuit, also quantum phenomena.

I don't know if the PEAR lab used something like this, but if not, their entire experiment would have been astonishingly pointless. You're absolutely right that the pseudorandom number generators used by computers are completely deterministic. Rerun those experiments with the same seeds, but without people trying to magically will the outcome to be something different, and you'll get exactly the same results as before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In fact, sources of true randomness are hard to come by anywhere... The CIA operates powerful radio dishes that bounce signals off the inside of the atmosphere, from which they then measure the resulting distortion of the original signal. And they STILL aren't sure they're getting a completely random result.</p></blockquote>
<p>That's not too surprising, since it's <a href="http://www.cs.umaine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer.html" rel="nofollow">impossible</a> to mathematically prove that a sequence of digits is truly random (for much the same reason that one can't prove a universal negative). However, there are quite a few sources of natural randomness that we believe on strong evidentiary grounds to be fundamentally unpredictable. Most of these involve taking advantage of the intrinsically probabilistic phenomena of quantum mechanics. Services like <a href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/" rel="nofollow">Hotbits</a>, for example, serve up random bitstreams generated by measuring the radioactive decay of atoms. Other hardware random number generators sample thermal or electronic noise in a circuit, also quantum phenomena.</p>
<p>I don't know if the PEAR lab used something like this, but if not, their entire experiment would have been astonishingly pointless. You're absolutely right that the pseudorandom number generators used by computers are completely deterministic. Rerun those experiments with the same seeds, but without people trying to magically will the outcome to be something different, and you'll get exactly the same results as before.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tycho the Dog</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16695</link>
		<dc:creator>Tycho the Dog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16695</guid>
		<description>Whoa there Hyphenate; pull yourself together.

Only six senses? I've got nine or so, and none of them involve the supernatural. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senses) But then I am a dog.

And the one about what the unknown parts of the brain do? (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm)

And 'unexplainable' things? What about 'things I can't explain'. We know how tarot cards and astrology work for example; it's called the 'Forer Effect'. (http://skepdic.com/forer.html)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa there Hyphenate; pull yourself together.</p>
<p>Only six senses? I've got nine or so, and none of them involve the supernatural. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senses) But then I am a dog.</p>
<p>And the one about what the unknown parts of the brain do? (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm)</p>
<p>And 'unexplainable' things? What about 'things I can't explain'. We know how tarot cards and astrology work for example; it's called the 'Forer Effect'. (http://skepdic.com/forer.html)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16677</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16677</guid>
		<description>A word about "random number generators": There aren't any. None that are strictly computer-based, anyway. It is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE to have a computer generate you a truly "random" number. You'd think it would be possible, but it is not. A computer can, at least over a limited number of trials, do a good job of faking randomness, but it cannot do so over the long term. This is why reputable state lotteries are still done with the ol' numbered-balls-in-a-tumbler method.

In fact, sources of true randomness are hard to come by anywhere. I've heard that the CIA's cryptology people spent most of the past 5 decades trying to find a source to little avail. The CIA operates powerful radio dishes that bounce signals off the inside of the atmosphere, from which they then measure the resulting distortion of the original signal. And they STILL aren't sure they're getting a completely random result.

So, anytime someone casually mentions a computer-based random number generator as being the crux of an experiment or some such, &lt;i&gt;don't buy it&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A word about "random number generators": There aren't any. None that are strictly computer-based, anyway. It is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE to have a computer generate you a truly "random" number. You'd think it would be possible, but it is not. A computer can, at least over a limited number of trials, do a good job of faking randomness, but it cannot do so over the long term. This is why reputable state lotteries are still done with the ol' numbered-balls-in-a-tumbler method.</p>
<p>In fact, sources of true randomness are hard to come by anywhere. I've heard that the CIA's cryptology people spent most of the past 5 decades trying to find a source to little avail. The CIA operates powerful radio dishes that bounce signals off the inside of the atmosphere, from which they then measure the resulting distortion of the original signal. And they STILL aren't sure they're getting a completely random result.</p>
<p>So, anytime someone casually mentions a computer-based random number generator as being the crux of an experiment or some such, <i>don't buy it</i>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C. L. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16494</link>
		<dc:creator>C. L. Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16494</guid>
		<description>Wait a minute...

They're psychics, but they're using mass mailings?  Instead of target mailing those people whom their psychic powers tell them might be potential clients?

Still trying to wrap my head around that one...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait a minute...</p>
<p>They're psychics, but they're using mass mailings?  Instead of target mailing those people whom their psychic powers tell them might be potential clients?</p>
<p>Still trying to wrap my head around that one...</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hyphenate</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16338</link>
		<dc:creator>Hyphenate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16338</guid>
		<description>I once got a piece of what I considered "junk mail" from a supposed psychic who told me that if I sent $19.95 she would tell me all the wonderful things that were going to happen to me.  I sent a reply back to her that said, essentially, if she wanted money from someone she should have known through clairvoyance that I had none, and perhaps she could tell me the lottery numbers so I could send her some.  I never heard from her again.

I can say that while I believe in no deity, I do believe that most of us have some amount of a "sixth sense" and that it is no less scientifically possible than many other things.  We still do not have a great deal of knowledge about the brain and the parts of the brain which have yet to be mapped and understood.  I've experienced enough "unexplainable" things to know it's beyond randomness.  But I know I would never charge for the use of whatever "gifts" I might have--I have been reading tarot cards for years and never request anything in return.

Regardless, I know enough people who have gladly held out their hands for fees when they have done something with their "gift" to "help" others.  Whether they are truly gifted or not is irrelevant--if someone can be helped through such abilities, they should be given freely without regard to reward.  It's sad that some people feel that their efforts should be rewarded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once got a piece of what I considered "junk mail" from a supposed psychic who told me that if I sent $19.95 she would tell me all the wonderful things that were going to happen to me.  I sent a reply back to her that said, essentially, if she wanted money from someone she should have known through clairvoyance that I had none, and perhaps she could tell me the lottery numbers so I could send her some.  I never heard from her again.</p>
<p>I can say that while I believe in no deity, I do believe that most of us have some amount of a "sixth sense" and that it is no less scientifically possible than many other things.  We still do not have a great deal of knowledge about the brain and the parts of the brain which have yet to be mapped and understood.  I've experienced enough "unexplainable" things to know it's beyond randomness.  But I know I would never charge for the use of whatever "gifts" I might have--I have been reading tarot cards for years and never request anything in return.</p>
<p>Regardless, I know enough people who have gladly held out their hands for fees when they have done something with their "gift" to "help" others.  Whether they are truly gifted or not is irrelevant--if someone can be helped through such abilities, they should be given freely without regard to reward.  It's sad that some people feel that their efforts should be rewarded.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16239</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16239</guid>
		<description>The PEAR results are even less impressive than you suggest. The tiny statistical significance is &lt;i&gt;entirely&lt;/i&gt; due to the results of a single experimental subject: "Operator 10". I once had a chat with Ray Hyman, who investigated PEAR. I believe that he wasn't prepared to go into print about his suspicions, but he was fairly sure that "Operator 10" was none other than Brenda Dunne, one of the people who ran PEAR. Draw your own conclusions ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The PEAR results are even less impressive than you suggest. The tiny statistical significance is <i>entirely</i> due to the results of a single experimental subject: "Operator 10". I once had a chat with Ray Hyman, who investigated PEAR. I believe that he wasn't prepared to go into print about his suspicions, but he was fairly sure that "Operator 10" was none other than Brenda Dunne, one of the people who ran PEAR. Draw your own conclusions ...</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16231</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-16231</guid>
		<description>I remember someone once pointing out that psychic researchers' taste for studying statistical effects is much like spiritualist mediums' taste for working in the dark -- it's a very convenient hiding place.

After discussing it a bit with someone else, I decided that a supersensitive torsion balance would be an ideal way to demonstrate psychokinesis; such balances have been used in Eotvos experiments for testing Einstein's Equivalence Principle.

But they haven't even tried. And they've been reluctant to report upper limits on various effects, as mainstream scientists often do. For example, &lt;a href="http://pdg.lbl.gov" rel="nofollow"&gt;the Particle Data Group&lt;/a&gt; reports numerous lower limits on various possible particles' masses and upper limits on various possible decay modes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember someone once pointing out that psychic researchers' taste for studying statistical effects is much like spiritualist mediums' taste for working in the dark -- it's a very convenient hiding place.</p>
<p>After discussing it a bit with someone else, I decided that a supersensitive torsion balance would be an ideal way to demonstrate psychokinesis; such balances have been used in Eotvos experiments for testing Einstein's Equivalence Principle.</p>
<p>But they haven't even tried. And they've been reluctant to report upper limits on various effects, as mainstream scientists often do. For example, <a href="http://pdg.lbl.gov" rel="nofollow">the Particle Data Group</a> reports numerous lower limits on various possible particles' masses and upper limits on various possible decay modes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Boelf</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-15995</link>
		<dc:creator>Boelf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 00:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-15995</guid>
		<description>Imagine being the director (or whatever) of the Office of Fair Trading. Regulating para-normal activity would be a mind field of grief. If you regulate them to the standards that might apply for say consumer goods you would effectively make religion illegal. 

I can't imagine how you could single out in some objective way the quick buck artists from those in it for the long haul (some of whom may actually believe).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine being the director (or whatever) of the Office of Fair Trading. Regulating para-normal activity would be a mind field of grief. If you regulate them to the standards that might apply for say consumer goods you would effectively make religion illegal. </p>
<p>I can't imagine how you could single out in some objective way the quick buck artists from those in it for the long haul (some of whom may actually believe).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Bradbury</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-15973</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bradbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-15973</guid>
		<description>Here's the &lt;a href="http://www.oft.gov.uk/Consumer/Scams/Letters+predicting+the+future.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;official article&lt;/a&gt; of 19th Feb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here's the <a href="http://www.oft.gov.uk/Consumer/Scams/Letters+predicting+the+future.htm" rel="nofollow">official article</a> of 19th Feb.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Bradbury</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-15968</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bradbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/02/a-daylight-atheism-consumer-warning.html#comment-15968</guid>
		<description>It seems the OFT has some pretty good advice, especially for theists.

&lt;blockquote&gt;stop, think and be sceptical - if something sounds too good to be true it probably is.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems the OFT has some pretty good advice, especially for theists.</p>
<blockquote><p>stop, think and be sceptical - if something sounds too good to be true it probably is.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
