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	<title>Comments on: A Reply from Pete Stark</title>
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		<title>By: RiddleOfSteel</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22867</link>
		<dc:creator>RiddleOfSteel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22867</guid>
		<description>Darren from MC, declaring some rights as non-existent or artificial is not a good way to deal with  the issue of competing rights.  I think it is actually you who are being inconsistent, by acknowledging the rights of certain parties, while ignoring the rights of others.  By insisting on adherence to terms of agreement that are freely entered into, all the while ignoring land that was appropriated without freely entered agreement or compensation to those who&#039;s rights have been infringed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darren from MC, declaring some rights as non-existent or artificial is not a good way to deal with  the issue of competing rights.  I think it is actually you who are being inconsistent, by acknowledging the rights of certain parties, while ignoring the rights of others.  By insisting on adherence to terms of agreement that are freely entered into, all the while ignoring land that was appropriated without freely entered agreement or compensation to those who's rights have been infringed.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren from NC</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22829</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren from NC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22829</guid>
		<description>I actually did discuss courts. I mentioned that private methods of arbitration would emerge in a free society. As for the rest of it (military, police, prison, etc) these are all things that would emerge privately in a free society if they weren&#039;t first prevented from doing so by government. Of course, none of those services would be coercive (at least not if they wanted to stay in business long). There are lots of ways such services could be provided privately (and justly), but my personal favorite theory is that something like today&#039;s Chambers of Commerce would end up providing many of those, including military. Except there wouldn&#039;t be just one per geographical area--there would be multiple competing organizations. They would have members who would pay dues, as well as raising money through fund drives in their communities (like non-profits do now). It would be understood that there would be free-riders (these services would be serving some people who had not contributed), but that&#039;s how it is already: your local Chamber of Commerce does a lot to improve the quality of life and economy in your area, but it&#039;s very likely you haven&#039;t contributed anything to their efforts--you&#039;re a free-rider.

Also, not being allowed to coerce someone to appear in court (like the government does today), you could accuse someone of aggressing against you and that person could just not show up at the arbitration hearing. Of course, this would look very bad for him and he would be at risk of hurting his reputation, which could make life very difficult for him. Also, he could choose to appear before the arbitrator chosen by the plaintiff and have the ruling go against him--but he could then take the case to an arbitrator of his choice for a possibly different ruling. If his arbitrator ruled differently, their would probably be a system in place that one or both of them were subscribers to that would automatically take the case to a private appeals court (which of course would also have competitors--I imagine someone like Consumer Reports would rate all these various courts and appeals courts on how effective and fair they were, and they would also just naturally gain reputations in the market based on the fairness of their rulings). Of course, the guilty party could refuse to pay whatever the punishment was declared to be, but again, this would result in some sort of black mark against him in society. In this free market I&#039;ve described, you could not force anyone to do anything, but market and social pressures would result in a system in which judgements were extremely fair (you wouldn&#039;t want to be seen as that arbitrator that had a bias) and in which frivolous lawsuits would be practically non-existent (you would have a range of incentives that would severely punish you if you made false charges). I imagine there would also be far less crime in the first place.

As for loansharks, they&#039;re &#039;criminal&#039; because by definition they use force to extract payment from their debtors. Such folks would be run out of town in short order due to the effectiveness of competing private justice systems. More likely, they would see the financial ruin of such a career choice before ever going into it and choose to do something more productive with their lives.

Got anything else for me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually did discuss courts. I mentioned that private methods of arbitration would emerge in a free society. As for the rest of it (military, police, prison, etc) these are all things that would emerge privately in a free society if they weren't first prevented from doing so by government. Of course, none of those services would be coercive (at least not if they wanted to stay in business long). There are lots of ways such services could be provided privately (and justly), but my personal favorite theory is that something like today's Chambers of Commerce would end up providing many of those, including military. Except there wouldn't be just one per geographical area--there would be multiple competing organizations. They would have members who would pay dues, as well as raising money through fund drives in their communities (like non-profits do now). It would be understood that there would be free-riders (these services would be serving some people who had not contributed), but that's how it is already: your local Chamber of Commerce does a lot to improve the quality of life and economy in your area, but it's very likely you haven't contributed anything to their efforts--you're a free-rider.</p>
<p>Also, not being allowed to coerce someone to appear in court (like the government does today), you could accuse someone of aggressing against you and that person could just not show up at the arbitration hearing. Of course, this would look very bad for him and he would be at risk of hurting his reputation, which could make life very difficult for him. Also, he could choose to appear before the arbitrator chosen by the plaintiff and have the ruling go against him--but he could then take the case to an arbitrator of his choice for a possibly different ruling. If his arbitrator ruled differently, their would probably be a system in place that one or both of them were subscribers to that would automatically take the case to a private appeals court (which of course would also have competitors--I imagine someone like Consumer Reports would rate all these various courts and appeals courts on how effective and fair they were, and they would also just naturally gain reputations in the market based on the fairness of their rulings). Of course, the guilty party could refuse to pay whatever the punishment was declared to be, but again, this would result in some sort of black mark against him in society. In this free market I've described, you could not force anyone to do anything, but market and social pressures would result in a system in which judgements were extremely fair (you wouldn't want to be seen as that arbitrator that had a bias) and in which frivolous lawsuits would be practically non-existent (you would have a range of incentives that would severely punish you if you made false charges). I imagine there would also be far less crime in the first place.</p>
<p>As for loansharks, they're 'criminal' because by definition they use force to extract payment from their debtors. Such folks would be run out of town in short order due to the effectiveness of competing private justice systems. More likely, they would see the financial ruin of such a career choice before ever going into it and choose to do something more productive with their lives.</p>
<p>Got anything else for me?</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22820</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 11:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22820</guid>
		<description>Pure anarchist utopianism. Darren, why don&#039;t you try to construct a society of virtuous anarchists?

And I notice that you had neglected to mention military forces and police forces and court systems and prison systems -- I find it curious that a self-proclaimed libertarian should look the other way at governments&#039; tools of coercion.

Furthermore, loansharks are 100% private sector, and &quot;private sector good, public sector bad&quot; would mean that loansharks are good. And what makes loansharks &quot;criminals&quot;, anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pure anarchist utopianism. Darren, why don't you try to construct a society of virtuous anarchists?</p>
<p>And I notice that you had neglected to mention military forces and police forces and court systems and prison systems -- I find it curious that a self-proclaimed libertarian should look the other way at governments' tools of coercion.</p>
<p>Furthermore, loansharks are 100% private sector, and "private sector good, public sector bad" would mean that loansharks are good. And what makes loansharks "criminals", anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: Darren from NC</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22804</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren from NC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 17:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22804</guid>
		<description>I think what it comes down to is this: the natural state of affairs is freedom and no government (no involuntary taxation, no monopoly on force, etc). I think those who support the existence of government (and all that entails) have the burden of proof on them to logically explain how it&#039;s okay to violate individual natural rights by forming such a government. The burden isn&#039;t on me to explain why education and health care and roads and income support shouldn&#039;t be provided through the government&#039;s forcible confiscation of wealth. If supporters of such things can&#039;t provide rock-solid logic to justify them, they should be eliminated at once. (And my view is that rock-solid logic for such aggression against person and property does not exist)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what it comes down to is this: the natural state of affairs is freedom and no government (no involuntary taxation, no monopoly on force, etc). I think those who support the existence of government (and all that entails) have the burden of proof on them to logically explain how it's okay to violate individual natural rights by forming such a government. The burden isn't on me to explain why education and health care and roads and income support shouldn't be provided through the government's forcible confiscation of wealth. If supporters of such things can't provide rock-solid logic to justify them, they should be eliminated at once. (And my view is that rock-solid logic for such aggression against person and property does not exist)</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22801</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22801</guid>
		<description>Darren, all you are doing is describing some imaginary anarcho-capitalist utopia and then applying that No True Scotsman fallacy to any capitalist behavior contrary to that.

My point is: you DON&#039;T have the choice of 4 or 5 roads stacked on top of each other. Each place has exactly ONE road. It&#039;s not like cars or gasoline or repair, where it is much easier for competing providers to coexist. Even then, if there are not many providers, they may be reluctant to compete with each other too much -- oligopoly is not much of an improvement over monopoly.

Also, look at how businesses are run &lt;i&gt;internally&lt;/i&gt;. I think that that&#039;s where capitalism groupies get their caricatures of &quot;socialized&quot;, &quot;nationalized&quot;, and &quot;command-and-control&quot; systems from. They take all the features of business management that they dislike and project those features onto anything that they dislike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darren, all you are doing is describing some imaginary anarcho-capitalist utopia and then applying that No True Scotsman fallacy to any capitalist behavior contrary to that.</p>
<p>My point is: you DON'T have the choice of 4 or 5 roads stacked on top of each other. Each place has exactly ONE road. It's not like cars or gasoline or repair, where it is much easier for competing providers to coexist. Even then, if there are not many providers, they may be reluctant to compete with each other too much -- oligopoly is not much of an improvement over monopoly.</p>
<p>Also, look at how businesses are run <i>internally</i>. I think that that's where capitalism groupies get their caricatures of "socialized", "nationalized", and "command-and-control" systems from. They take all the features of business management that they dislike and project those features onto anything that they dislike.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren from NC</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22797</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren from NC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 01:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22797</guid>
		<description>Your fallacy is holding up a blatantly criminal entity as an example of a private business operating in a stateless society. It would indeed be wrong to use force to extract payment from your debtor. In a free society, private methods of arbitration would emerge to check any attempts to use coercion. However, there would be nothing wrong with a creditor using non-coercive means to try to convince the debtor to make good on his end of the deal (like putting his name on a list of bad credit risks, bringing civil charges against him in the aforementioned private arbitration system, etc).

As for roads, they are most certainly not a natural monopoly (despite that common misperception fostered by anti-market economists). Just imagining my own trip from home to work, there are at least 3 major highways I can choose from for the major part of the trip, 3 or 4 routes from the major highway to my office, and 3 or 4 routes from my house to a major highway. My neighborhood itself opens onto to major streets. If all those roads were private, there would be route competition than you see in many private industries today. As far as the road that goes directly to my house, I live in a development governed by a Home Owners Association. In a free market, HOAs would most likely own the roads in their developments and maintain them as part of their duties just as they maintain common areas. They would likely not charge &#039;tolls&#039; to residents apart from some portion of their annual dues. They would probably form some kind of access agreements with owners of the roads the neighborhood opens onto. There are a vast (and unpredictable) range of possibilities for a market that doesn&#039;t yet exist. But as other markets show us, efficient and fair arrangements will tend to crop up due to market pressure.

And I don&#039;t claim markets are perfect--because life isn&#039;t perfect. Markets are just closer to it (and more obliging of freedom and property rights) than a socialized, nationalized, or command-and-control system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your fallacy is holding up a blatantly criminal entity as an example of a private business operating in a stateless society. It would indeed be wrong to use force to extract payment from your debtor. In a free society, private methods of arbitration would emerge to check any attempts to use coercion. However, there would be nothing wrong with a creditor using non-coercive means to try to convince the debtor to make good on his end of the deal (like putting his name on a list of bad credit risks, bringing civil charges against him in the aforementioned private arbitration system, etc).</p>
<p>As for roads, they are most certainly not a natural monopoly (despite that common misperception fostered by anti-market economists). Just imagining my own trip from home to work, there are at least 3 major highways I can choose from for the major part of the trip, 3 or 4 routes from the major highway to my office, and 3 or 4 routes from my house to a major highway. My neighborhood itself opens onto to major streets. If all those roads were private, there would be route competition than you see in many private industries today. As far as the road that goes directly to my house, I live in a development governed by a Home Owners Association. In a free market, HOAs would most likely own the roads in their developments and maintain them as part of their duties just as they maintain common areas. They would likely not charge 'tolls' to residents apart from some portion of their annual dues. They would probably form some kind of access agreements with owners of the roads the neighborhood opens onto. There are a vast (and unpredictable) range of possibilities for a market that doesn't yet exist. But as other markets show us, efficient and fair arrangements will tend to crop up due to market pressure.</p>
<p>And I don't claim markets are perfect--because life isn't perfect. Markets are just closer to it (and more obliging of freedom and property rights) than a socialized, nationalized, or command-and-control system.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22784</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22784</guid>
		<description>Darren, I thought I had explained to you how creditors can coerce payment from their debots. I suggest trying this experiment. Take out a BIG loan from a loanshark. Refuse to pay the loan payments that he demands. Will he stand helplessly by?

Also, city roads are a good example of a natural monopoly. It&#039;s hard for there to be more than one of them that goes by your house. And shouting &quot;Markets are perfect! Markets are perfect! Markets are perfect!&quot; won&#039;t change that.

I recall someone once commenting that if capitalism was a religion, libertarians would be the fundamentalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darren, I thought I had explained to you how creditors can coerce payment from their debots. I suggest trying this experiment. Take out a BIG loan from a loanshark. Refuse to pay the loan payments that he demands. Will he stand helplessly by?</p>
<p>Also, city roads are a good example of a natural monopoly. It's hard for there to be more than one of them that goes by your house. And shouting "Markets are perfect! Markets are perfect! Markets are perfect!" won't change that.</p>
<p>I recall someone once commenting that if capitalism was a religion, libertarians would be the fundamentalists.</p>
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		<title>By: stillwaters</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22771</link>
		<dc:creator>stillwaters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22771</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, Darren from NC, but I&#039;m having a difficult time agreeing with your perspective. From what I&#039;m understanding, it seems that your libertarian views are self-centered and seemingly uncaring. I think you are depending way too much on an ideal and unrealistic version of a free market that cannot and will never exist. Pragmatically, I prefer the &#039;criminal&#039; yet supportive government over the possible generosity of a few selfish property owners.

And I agree to some extent that the government should be limited in several ways. It should always be considered a government by the people, for the people. That&#039;s what an American democracy is supposed to be, isn&#039;t it? I find that much more conducive to happy citizens than no government at all, or a small, governmental police state, with business owners as the ruling class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm sorry, Darren from NC, but I'm having a difficult time agreeing with your perspective. From what I'm understanding, it seems that your libertarian views are self-centered and seemingly uncaring. I think you are depending way too much on an ideal and unrealistic version of a free market that cannot and will never exist. Pragmatically, I prefer the 'criminal' yet supportive government over the possible generosity of a few selfish property owners.</p>
<p>And I agree to some extent that the government should be limited in several ways. It should always be considered a government by the people, for the people. That's what an American democracy is supposed to be, isn't it? I find that much more conducive to happy citizens than no government at all, or a small, governmental police state, with business owners as the ruling class.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren from NC</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22768</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren from NC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22768</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand. How do property owners coerce payment for goods and services they provide?

And yes, it would certainly be okay for a private road owner to set the rules that people must observe on his road. Of course, there would be a market incentive for him not to impose rules that would drive customers to not use his road.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't understand. How do property owners coerce payment for goods and services they provide?</p>
<p>And yes, it would certainly be okay for a private road owner to set the rules that people must observe on his road. Of course, there would be a market incentive for him not to impose rules that would drive customers to not use his road.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22755</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 22:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22755</guid>
		<description>Darren&#039;s arguments are pure libertarian hairsplitting. Or should I say propertarian? What gives property owners rights that governments ought not to have? Like the right to coerce payment for goods and services provided. Yes, coerce, that libertarian dirty word. Do loansharks have rights that governments don&#039;t?

And imagine, Darren, if all the roads were sold off. Would it then be OK for the road companies to decree that motorcyclists that travel on their roads wear helmets?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darren's arguments are pure libertarian hairsplitting. Or should I say propertarian? What gives property owners rights that governments ought not to have? Like the right to coerce payment for goods and services provided. Yes, coerce, that libertarian dirty word. Do loansharks have rights that governments don't?</p>
<p>And imagine, Darren, if all the roads were sold off. Would it then be OK for the road companies to decree that motorcyclists that travel on their roads wear helmets?</p>
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		<title>By: Darren from NC</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22753</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren from NC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22753</guid>
		<description>Ah, I see. What you&#039;ve done is created artificial rights. Your definition of property rights is not internally consistent. It implies that everyone in the world has property rights to every bit of land on the planet. This would mean that you do not have an exclusive right even to the little bit of space that your body takes up or to the air you breathe. This, in turn, would mean that you do not have an exclusive right to your own body and your life. You see how your artificial definition of property rights actually negates the fundamental right of self-ownership? 

(By the way, I&#039;ll try to denote myself as &quot;Darren from NC&quot; from now on since I noticed there&#039;s another Darren that posts on this blog.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I see. What you've done is created artificial rights. Your definition of property rights is not internally consistent. It implies that everyone in the world has property rights to every bit of land on the planet. This would mean that you do not have an exclusive right even to the little bit of space that your body takes up or to the air you breathe. This, in turn, would mean that you do not have an exclusive right to your own body and your life. You see how your artificial definition of property rights actually negates the fundamental right of self-ownership? </p>
<p>(By the way, I'll try to denote myself as "Darren from NC" from now on since I noticed there's another Darren that posts on this blog.)</p>
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		<title>By: RiddleOfSteel</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22752</link>
		<dc:creator>RiddleOfSteel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/a-reply-from-pete-stark.html#comment-22752</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And RiddleOfSteel, no one is having their rights infringed by not having use of land that was not theirs to begin with. That doesn&#039;t even make any sense. Perhaps you mean to say something else?&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

No, I meant what I wrote.  Perhaps it doesn&#039;t make sense Darren, because you are basing your assumptions on an incomplete acknowledgment of rights, as evidenced by how you use the phrase &quot;not theirs to begin with&quot; to pick and choose who&#039;s rights will be acknowledged.  When a person appropriates a piece of land, regardless if that person takes the land by agreeing to compensate the previous person who appropriated it, the rights of others to use that land are infringed - they are not being compensated for loss of use of the land due to the two parties engaging in appropriation.  If a person is to infringe on the rights of others there must be compensation, and all rights must be considered.  I am wondering, when someone appropriates a piece of land, without agreement with and compensation to those who will no longer have the right to use it, do you condone using the coercive power which you so deride to enforce this rights violation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And RiddleOfSteel, no one is having their rights infringed by not having use of land that was not theirs to begin with. That doesn't even make any sense. Perhaps you mean to say something else?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I meant what I wrote.  Perhaps it doesn't make sense Darren, because you are basing your assumptions on an incomplete acknowledgment of rights, as evidenced by how you use the phrase "not theirs to begin with" to pick and choose who's rights will be acknowledged.  When a person appropriates a piece of land, regardless if that person takes the land by agreeing to compensate the previous person who appropriated it, the rights of others to use that land are infringed - they are not being compensated for loss of use of the land due to the two parties engaging in appropriation.  If a person is to infringe on the rights of others there must be compensation, and all rights must be considered.  I am wondering, when someone appropriates a piece of land, without agreement with and compensation to those who will no longer have the right to use it, do you condone using the coercive power which you so deride to enforce this rights violation?</p>
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