Comments on: How Religions Are Born http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:50:55 +0000 By: mikespeir http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-39075 mikespeir Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:20:26 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-39075 Nate: <blockquote>"the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"</blockquote> The coincidence has been pointed out time and time again: that convincing the world he doesn't exist is also the Invisible Pink Unicorn's greatest trick. Nate:

"the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

The coincidence has been pointed out time and time again: that convincing the world he doesn't exist is also the Invisible Pink Unicorn's greatest trick.

]]> By: Nate http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-39066 Nate Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:04:48 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-39066 I saw this special last night on a THS special 2hr show on cults. Being a Christian myself, I was flippin blow away. I enjoyed reading this post, thanks for it. I don't agree, of course, with your rant on how unbelievable Christianity is because it makes perfect sense to me, but yeah. The Bible clearly states that the second coming of Christ is not going to be some long extended visit in which He starts a church and gets fine cars and lots of money. Jesus Christ constantly taught that the riches of this world were nothing and we can't take em when we die so who cares. I feel sorry for this guy, because I know that he will be punished greatly for misleading soooo many. But, as Kevin Spacey said in The Usual Suspects, "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist". I saw this special last night on a THS special 2hr show on cults. Being a Christian myself, I was flippin blow away. I enjoyed reading this post, thanks for it. I don't agree, of course, with your rant on how unbelievable Christianity is because it makes perfect sense to me, but yeah. The Bible clearly states that the second coming of Christ is not going to be some long extended visit in which He starts a church and gets fine cars and lots of money. Jesus Christ constantly taught that the riches of this world were nothing and we can't take em when we die so who cares. I feel sorry for this guy, because I know that he will be punished greatly for misleading soooo many. But, as Kevin Spacey said in The Usual Suspects, "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".

]]> By: Camile http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27227 Camile Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:53:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27227 OMGF, Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as critizing you, I just thought you would be a cool person to get into a discussion with. What I was trying to say was that I don't know what is god-like and what isn't. I don't understand how any human would be able to make assertions about what God is/does. This is of course if we are going by the definition of the word 'God' as a supreme being who created us(if not then my whole argument won't work). Your arguement seems to be based on your assumptions of what good is and God doesn't fit into your view of what is good. Maybe to a supreme being who can see everything "good" looks a lot different. "One is most dishonet towards one's God: he is not permitted to sin," Nietzsche. OMGF,
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as critizing you, I just thought you would be a cool person to get into a discussion with. What I was trying to say was that I don't know what is god-like and what isn't. I don't understand how any human would be able to make assertions about what God is/does. This is of course if we are going by the definition of the word 'God' as a supreme being who created us(if not then my whole argument won't work). Your arguement seems to be based on your assumptions of what good is and God doesn't fit into your view of what is good. Maybe to a supreme being who can see everything "good" looks a lot different. "One is most dishonet towards one's God: he is not permitted to sin," Nietzsche.

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27207 OMGF Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:10:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27207 Camile, The problem with that is that you are doing just what you criticize me for. Your argument hinges on you being able to tell us what is godlike and what isn't, without giving any supporting reason for your assertion. I have a supporting reason, which I will go into in more detail. It is unjust for god to send people to hell. One of the counters to this claim by Xians is that god is just because he gives us a choice in the matter. This is not a good counter, however, because we aren't given the information necessary to make an informed choice. IOW, we are choosing where to go in our lives in the complete darkness. Then, we are punished for going the wrong direction. It would be more just (and therefore more god-like if god-like equals justice) for god to give us the information we need to make an informed choice. Camile,
The problem with that is that you are doing just what you criticize me for. Your argument hinges on you being able to tell us what is godlike and what isn't, without giving any supporting reason for your assertion. I have a supporting reason, which I will go into in more detail. It is unjust for god to send people to hell. One of the counters to this claim by Xians is that god is just because he gives us a choice in the matter. This is not a good counter, however, because we aren't given the information necessary to make an informed choice. IOW, we are choosing where to go in our lives in the complete darkness. Then, we are punished for going the wrong direction. It would be more just (and therefore more god-like if god-like equals justice) for god to give us the information we need to make an informed choice.

]]> By: Camile http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27204 Camile Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:26:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27204 How can you say what is godlike and what isn't without being God? We are bound by the way we see the universe. If we were made then we can only see the universe in the way were made to see it. How can you say what is godlike and what isn't without being God? We are bound by the way we see the universe. If we were made then we can only see the universe in the way were made to see it.

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27202 OMGF Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:37:03 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27202 <blockquote>If we understood why God did things then he wouldn't be God.</blockquote> This is simply an apologists "rationalization" of why god can be mean, vindictive, and cruel while simultaneously thinking god is good, just, etc. If god explained herself to us, this would not negate the power of god, the formation of the universe, etc. It would actually be more godlike, because it would be more just. It would actually give us the ability to make an informed decision about our future afterlife.

If we understood why God did things then he wouldn't be God.

This is simply an apologists "rationalization" of why god can be mean, vindictive, and cruel while simultaneously thinking god is good, just, etc. If god explained herself to us, this would not negate the power of god, the formation of the universe, etc. It would actually be more godlike, because it would be more just. It would actually give us the ability to make an informed decision about our future afterlife.

]]> By: Camile http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27191 Camile Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:45:52 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-27191 I really liked your article. You were saying how it wouldn't make sense for God to incarnate on earth, etc.. I agree with you, but I think you are missing the point of God. If we understood why God did things then he wouldn't be God. Does an ant understand what a human does? I really liked your article. You were saying how it wouldn't make sense for God to incarnate on earth, etc.. I agree with you, but I think you are missing the point of God. If we understood why God did things then he wouldn't be God. Does an ant understand what a human does?

]]> By: Lynet http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-23766 Lynet Wed, 09 May 2007 16:06:34 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-23766 jenn, Thanks for your comments. <blockquote>I encourage you (if you consider yourself intellectually honest) to think about these things and to consider the "ancient anonymous writings" (bible) before you utterly dimiss its claims.</blockquote> Most of us <i>have</i> thought about these things, of course. Thinking for yourself and examining the evidence is a central element of humanism, and this is very much a humanist blog. Our host here, Ebonmuse, has a <i>lot</i> of essays up at this blog's parent site <a>www.ebonmusings.org</a> which more than cover the questions you raise. <blockquote>But what about morality in general? Wouldnt we all agree that murder is wrong? and rape? and well genocides?</blockquote> Why should evidence for morality be evidence for God? My own view of morality is centred around the idea that there are certain things that are inherently good from a human point of view -- happiness being the most obvious example. I don't need God to support that belief system; it makes sense on its own. Ebonmuse's somewhat similar viewpoint on morality is <a href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Additionally, while I would most certainly agree that murder and rape and genocide are wrong, the God of the Bible seems less sure, since He seems to order genocide on a regular basis in the OT. The combination of 2 Peter 2:7-8 and Genesis 19:8 raises similar questions about whether the Bible considers rape to be a serious crime. <blockquote>THis is just a thought, but if you consider the claims of christianity, it has no contradictions and does not offer something non-logical.</blockquote> I will not be the only one to choke at this. Are you claiming Biblical infallibility? If so, the Skeptic's Annotated Bible has an exhaustive list of contradictions <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. It's a very long list; feel free to scan through and find the claims that are least peripheral. Even considering more central Christian claims, I have to say I find the idea of a benevolent God torturing people for eternity to be very contradictory. Seriously, I wouldn't give a mass murderer more than thirty years in Hell. Even if you think we're really, really bad -- you know, maybe we all deserve about ten thousand years? -- even then, we're not <i>infinitely</i> evil. Come off it. No-one deserves eternal punishment. If that's not central enough for you, Ebonmuse critiques the Trinity <a href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/threeinone.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Or just look around this blog or Ebon Musings until you find the piece of writing that deals with the specific claim you want answered. I hope you find material here which helps you to understand our viewpoint. jenn,

Thanks for your comments.

I encourage you (if you consider yourself intellectually honest) to think about these things and to consider the "ancient anonymous writings" (bible) before you utterly dimiss its claims.

Most of us have thought about these things, of course. Thinking for yourself and examining the evidence is a central element of humanism, and this is very much a humanist blog. Our host here, Ebonmuse, has a lot of essays up at this blog's parent site http://www.ebonmusings.org which more than cover the questions you raise.

But what about morality in general? Wouldnt we all agree that murder is wrong? and rape? and well genocides?

Why should evidence for morality be evidence for God? My own view of morality is centred around the idea that there are certain things that are inherently good from a human point of view -- happiness being the most obvious example. I don't need God to support that belief system; it makes sense on its own. Ebonmuse's somewhat similar viewpoint on morality is here.

Additionally, while I would most certainly agree that murder and rape and genocide are wrong, the God of the Bible seems less sure, since He seems to order genocide on a regular basis in the OT. The combination of 2 Peter 2:7-8 and Genesis 19:8 raises similar questions about whether the Bible considers rape to be a serious crime.

THis is just a thought, but if you consider the claims of christianity, it has no contradictions and does not offer something non-logical.

I will not be the only one to choke at this. Are you claiming Biblical infallibility? If so, the Skeptic's Annotated Bible has an exhaustive list of contradictions here. It's a very long list; feel free to scan through and find the claims that are least peripheral.

Even considering more central Christian claims, I have to say I find the idea of a benevolent God torturing people for eternity to be very contradictory. Seriously, I wouldn't give a mass murderer more than thirty years in Hell. Even if you think we're really, really bad -- you know, maybe we all deserve about ten thousand years? -- even then, we're not infinitely evil. Come off it. No-one deserves eternal punishment.

If that's not central enough for you, Ebonmuse critiques the Trinity here. Or just look around this blog or Ebon Musings until you find the piece of writing that deals with the specific claim you want answered.

I hope you find material here which helps you to understand our viewpoint.

]]> By: jenn http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-23765 jenn Wed, 09 May 2007 15:02:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-23765 I heard about this guy on CNN and thought his claims also to be very well... false. I know many who read this article are in fact agreeing that this guy is false just like christianity is itself is false and I understand why one might say this. I was just wondering though, have we ever stopped to consider, "Could an all-good, all powerful, all- knowing God exist?" in general. Well one might say of course not! but why not? THere is great scientific evidence that points out a great design in nature. But what about morality in general? Wouldnt we all agree that murder is wrong? and rape? and well genocides? Even people in other cultures would agree to this. I think that shows that we as humans have a common morality not based on the culture to which we live but on something that was instilled in us before we were born- almost as a preprogrammed code. At this point I know that you might already be thinking of many reponses that one could say to refute this but I ask for your attention and intellectual integrity for a few more sentences. We can see that this world is messed up- fathers killing their kids, children being murdered, random tornados destroying towns. In all of this though there is still something that cries out why? or who? An we ask If there was a GOd where is he now in all of this? Well this would take too long to explain, but simply this... I encourage you (if you consider yourself intellectually honest) to think about these things and to consider the "ancient anonymous writings" (bible) before you utterly dimiss its claims. Before one can truelly deny something as false doesnt one have to fully research it? and consider the validity of its argument? THis is just a thought, but if you consider the claims of christianity, it has no contradictions and does not offer something non-logical. In fact the God of the bible follows every rule of logic put forth by Aristotle and Aquainus. Even Aristotle understood that there was something greater than him that existed (Aristotle's metaphysics). I agree with Aristotle that there is a "being" that is greater than we that has created this world. i believe that this "being" is the GOd of the bible. I heard about this guy on CNN and thought his claims also to be very well... false. I know many who read this article are in fact agreeing that this guy is false just like christianity is itself is false and I understand why one might say this. I was just wondering though, have we ever stopped to consider, "Could an all-good, all powerful, all- knowing God exist?" in general. Well one might say of course not! but why not? THere is great scientific evidence that points out a great design in nature. But what about morality in general? Wouldnt we all agree that murder is wrong? and rape? and well genocides? Even people in other cultures would agree to this. I think that shows that we as humans have a common morality not based on the culture to which we live but on something that was instilled in us before we were born- almost as a preprogrammed code. At this point I know that you might already be thinking of many reponses that one could say to refute this but I ask for your attention and intellectual integrity for a few more sentences. We can see that this world is messed up- fathers killing their kids, children being murdered, random tornados destroying towns. In all of this though there is still something that cries out why? or who? An we ask If there was a GOd where is he now in all of this? Well this would take too long to explain, but simply this... I encourage you (if you consider yourself intellectually honest) to think about these things and to consider the "ancient anonymous writings" (bible) before you utterly dimiss its claims. Before one can truelly deny something as false doesnt one have to fully research it? and consider the validity of its argument? THis is just a thought, but if you consider the claims of christianity, it has no contradictions and does not offer something non-logical. In fact the God of the bible follows every rule of logic put forth by Aristotle and Aquainus. Even Aristotle understood that there was something greater than him that existed (Aristotle's metaphysics). I agree with Aristotle that there is a "being" that is greater than we that has created this world. i believe that this "being" is the GOd of the bible.

]]> By: Tam http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-20111 Tam Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:36:55 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/how-religions-are-born.html#comment-20111 <blockquote>It makes no sense whatsoever that an infinite, omnipotent god would need to incarnate himself as a human and then subject himself to an agonizing and bloody death just so he could persuade himself to forgive us and save us from the cruel fate he created for us.</blockquote> This is a brilliant way of stating the basics of Christian theology in the most ridiculous possible way. Bravo!

It makes no sense whatsoever that an infinite, omnipotent god would need to incarnate himself as a human and then subject himself to an agonizing and bloody death just so he could persuade himself to forgive us and save us from the cruel fate he created for us.

This is a brilliant way of stating the basics of Christian theology in the most ridiculous possible way. Bravo!

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