Comments on: The Congressional Prayer Caucus http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:47:44 +0000 By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24705 Polly Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:14:50 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24705 I still don't see where the 10 commandments fit in. Those laws are not part of our current system (despite some overlap)for the most part and we're better off for it. Example: Religious freedom is a better goal than stoning someone for worshiping other non-YHWH gods, Commandments #1-3. I agree that we have improved our laws, which we should continue to refine. Or, are you saying that the Questions that the 10 commandments tried to answer are the key ones to be answered? Not that we should accept the specific answers originally proposed? That would be a different discussion. I still don't see where the 10 commandments fit in. Those laws are not part of our current system (despite some overlap)for the most part and we're better off for it. Example: Religious freedom is a better goal than stoning someone for worshiping other non-YHWH gods, Commandments #1-3. I agree that we have improved our laws, which we should continue to refine.

Or, are you saying that the Questions that the 10 commandments tried to answer are the key ones to be answered? Not that we should accept the specific answers originally proposed?
That would be a different discussion.

]]> By: ferm http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24702 ferm Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:19:01 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24702 To Polly: I don't believe you thoughtfully included considering my last three sentences: " (1)'...a collective civiilization that respects the views of each other...'; (2)'Confusion arises when democracy is interpreted narrowly.' and, (3) ' These types of controversial elements are not to be confused as religion.' ". Your issues are elements(such as the Blue Laws), have been democratically dropped from the law books; and 'engraving images'? I see carvings, drawings, art, paintings, sculptures everywhere. A democratic society has the right to express their personal opinion about it. But none of this is a 'graven image' unless people are worshiping this art as if it were a GOD, and in a democracy people can even do this if they choose to short of subverting our government or offering murdered or tortured scrafices to it. Nor are there any acting laws on our books that make atheism or non-YHWHistic beliefs a capital crime. That is, folks who do not respect the beiefs of others do not have the legal right to be subversive or cruel to them. And where are you coming from to think that our law has not bothered to outlaw slavery, racism, or sexism? All of the above social issues continue to wrongfully occur; but our laws, yes, LAWS Polly, (and the overwhelming number of citizens who stomped around waving posters and going to jail for their beliefs about civil rights to be noticed and acted upon for change) have been updated! My definition of a liberal? It's that we believe in each other's feelings, and beliefs, and talents; and to encourage what ever it takes within 'the system' for each of us to actually take for granted their right to develop their hopes and dreams and talents as a positive lifelong experience. Yes, Polly, as a civilization we have a long way to go - it even seems at times like it is one step forward and two steps back. But such an effort, if you're serious about fighting toward the positive goals you want to see happen, requires a collective focus - and I believe the heart and essence of our 'how-to' guidelines are imbedded within the elements of the Ten Commandments. Thanks for your response Polly. (ferm) To Polly: I don't believe you thoughtfully included considering my last three sentences: " (1)'...a collective civiilization that respects the views of each other...'; (2)'Confusion arises when democracy is interpreted narrowly.' and, (3)
' These types of controversial elements are not to be confused as religion.' ". Your issues are elements(such as the Blue Laws), have been democratically dropped from the law books; and 'engraving images'? I see carvings, drawings, art, paintings, sculptures everywhere. A democratic society has the right to express their personal opinion about it. But none of this is a 'graven image' unless people are worshiping this art as if it were a GOD, and in a democracy people can even do this if they choose to short of subverting our government or offering murdered or tortured scrafices to it. Nor are there any acting laws on our books that make atheism or non-YHWHistic beliefs a capital crime. That is, folks who do not respect the beiefs of others do not have the legal right to be subversive or cruel to them. And where are you coming from to think that our law has not bothered to outlaw slavery, racism, or sexism? All of the above social issues continue to wrongfully occur; but our laws, yes, LAWS Polly, (and the overwhelming number of citizens who stomped around waving posters and going to jail for their beliefs about civil rights to be noticed and acted upon for change) have been updated! My definition of a liberal? It's that we believe in each other's feelings, and beliefs, and talents; and to encourage what ever it takes within 'the system' for each of us to actually take for granted their right to develop their hopes and dreams and talents as a positive lifelong experience. Yes, Polly, as a civilization we have a long way to go - it even seems at times like it is one step forward and two steps back. But such an effort, if you're serious about fighting toward the positive goals you want to see happen, requires a collective focus - and I believe the heart and essence of our 'how-to' guidelines are imbedded within the elements of the Ten Commandments.

Thanks for your response Polly. (ferm)

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24677 Polly Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:40:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24677 <blockquote>Whatever one believes, or doesn't believe, about the value of a religion, a criteria to collectively TRY to aim for the survival of civilization(s)is simply expressed in (and I can see the Aetheists eyes rolling upward so hold on to your seats), the Ten Commandments.</blockquote> Are you referring to the literal ten commanments found in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5? If so, I have to ask, are you being facetious? Those are the guiding principles for the ages across all the universe? Blue laws, laws against engraving images(which could include secular art), laws that make atheism and non-YHWHistic religious belief a capital crime? A set of laws that couldn't even bother to outlaw slavery, racism or sexism? What is your definition of "liberal"?

Whatever one believes, or doesn't believe, about the value of a religion, a criteria to collectively TRY to aim for the survival of civilization(s)is simply expressed in (and I can see the Aetheists eyes rolling upward so hold on to your seats), the Ten Commandments.

Are you referring to the literal ten commanments found in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5?
If so, I have to ask, are you being facetious?
Those are the guiding principles for the ages across all the universe? Blue laws, laws against engraving images(which could include secular art), laws that make atheism and non-YHWHistic religious belief a capital crime? A set of laws that couldn't even bother to outlaw slavery, racism or sexism?
What is your definition of "liberal"?

]]> By: ferm http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24673 ferm Tue, 12 Jun 2007 06:17:05 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-24673 I'm a liberal; I'm a professional scientist; I'm a Democrat; I'm a Christian. Go figure! Perhaps it's because I welcome human differences while scientifically deleting superstition and misinformation from religion which ties these issues, for me, into one coherent structure. Worse news yet for those who would categorize me, especially relevent for the Aetheist: I believe Jesus was our first real Liberal. Think about it. He certainly defied those in power in the most interesting, consistent and determined ways. My question: Where does an Aetheist get their views or set their goals about how civilizations should live together? Forinstance, as a scientist (by the way, I don't believe science is magic anymore than I believe religion is magic!), I know every experiment requires a strict set of guidelines to statistically determine the success or failure of the results. I am curous what the Aetheist perceives as guidelines to attain successful results for civilizations to survive; that is, collective guidelines that will stand up across all universes and eons of time. Such basic guidelines are essential. Whatever one believes, or doesn't believe, about the value of a religion, a criteria to collectively TRY to aim for the survival of civilization(s)is simply expressed in (and I can see the Aetheists eyes rolling upward so hold on to your seats), the Ten Commandments. If one relates these commandments to history and to human nature they make a lot of sense! I know...there are comedians who have reduced them to two commandments as sufficient...but two aren't enough. We're talking centuries of time and people here! Ten, however, are sufficient; and as we have seen, compliance is tough. Let's not take for granted that anyone's good nature, good citizenry, or good innate strengths are 'magically' born into one's being. One's 'good' character and wide-spread decent citizenry has been set by a very powerful message on how to live and on how to live together. Controversy is great -yes! - but a collective civilization that respects the views of each other must win if we are to survive. Confusion arises when democracy is interpreted narrowly. These types of controversial elements are not to be confused as religion. I'm a liberal; I'm a professional scientist; I'm a Democrat; I'm a Christian. Go figure! Perhaps it's because I welcome human differences while scientifically deleting superstition and misinformation from religion which ties these issues, for me, into one coherent structure. Worse news yet for those who would categorize me, especially relevent for the Aetheist: I believe Jesus was our first real Liberal. Think about it. He certainly defied those in power in the most interesting, consistent and determined ways. My question: Where does an Aetheist get their views or set their goals about how civilizations should live together? Forinstance, as a scientist (by the way, I don't believe science is magic anymore than I believe religion is magic!), I know every experiment requires a strict set of guidelines to statistically determine the success or failure of the results. I am curous what the Aetheist perceives as guidelines to attain successful results for civilizations to survive; that is, collective guidelines that will stand up across all universes and eons of time. Such basic guidelines are essential. Whatever one believes, or doesn't believe, about the value of a religion, a criteria to collectively TRY to aim for the survival of civilization(s)is simply expressed in (and I can see the Aetheists eyes rolling upward so hold on to your seats), the Ten Commandments. If one relates these commandments to history and to human nature they make a lot of sense! I know...there are comedians who have reduced them to two commandments as sufficient...but two aren't enough. We're talking centuries of time and people here! Ten, however, are sufficient; and as we have seen, compliance is tough. Let's not take for granted that anyone's good nature, good citizenry, or good innate strengths are 'magically' born into one's being. One's 'good' character and wide-spread decent citizenry has been set by a very powerful message on how to live and on how to live together. Controversy is great -yes! - but a collective civilization that respects the views of each other must win if we are to survive. Confusion arises when democracy is interpreted narrowly. These types of controversial elements are not to be confused as religion.

]]> By: stillwaters http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22688 stillwaters Fri, 30 Mar 2007 20:59:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22688 I just looked also, and found that my 'old' representative was on the list. He got voted out last November. So, my optimism is still intact. I really like the idea of a Congressional Reason Caucus. I really think we ought to promote REASON every chance we get. Like the <a href="http://www.nationaldayofreason.org/" rel="nofollow">National Day of Reason</a>. It should be a national holiday. I just looked also, and found that my 'old' representative was on the list. He got voted out last November. So, my optimism is still intact.

I really like the idea of a Congressional Reason Caucus. I really think we ought to promote REASON every chance we get. Like the National Day of Reason. It should be a national holiday.

]]> By: John P http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22673 John P Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:38:10 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22673 Isn't that web site run by the government too? I do hope the funds for it are not coming out of the public coffers. Isn't that web site run by the government too? I do hope the funds for it are not coming out of the public coffers.

]]> By: Terrence http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22667 Terrence Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:47:59 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22667 "Suppose you were a member of Congress. And suppose you were an idiot. But I repeat myself." ---Mark Twain "Suppose you were a member of Congress. And suppose you were an idiot. But I repeat myself." ---Mark Twain

]]> By: The Exterminator http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22666 The Exterminator Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:29:17 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22666 Great post. One thing the Prayer Caucus site neglects to mention is whether or not these theocrats are caucusing during work time paid for by taxpayers. I suspect that they are. If so, a case could be made that their meetings are unconstitutional. Great post. One thing the Prayer Caucus site neglects to mention is whether or not these theocrats are caucusing during work time paid for by taxpayers. I suspect that they are. If so, a case could be made that their meetings are unconstitutional.

]]> By: Reed Ulvestad http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22665 Reed Ulvestad Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:19:37 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22665 I just looked and "my" congressman is a member :( I can't wait until my next chance to vote against John Carter of Texas, because no amount of "reason" will ever work its way into his head... I just looked and "my" congressman is a member :( I can't wait until my next chance to vote against John Carter of Texas, because no amount of "reason" will ever work its way into his head...

]]> By: Mark http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22664 Mark Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:03:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/03/the-congressional-prayer-caucus.html#comment-22664 I received an advanced copy of a letter from Bill Sali (R-Idaho) today explaining why he voted against pulling the troops out of Iraq. This letter will be going to Idaho news media soon. I was surprised to see the first two paragraphs... <sub> Clear vision, not politics, should guide Congress By Congressman Bill Sali Sixty years ago, U.S. Senate chaplain Peter Marshall prayed that God would “give us clear vision, that we may know where to stand and what to stand for - because unless we stand for something, we shall fall for anything.” Those words are moving in their simplicity and honesty. Only with the grace of God, with strong values, deep conviction of principle and ongoing willingness to listen and learn can leaders gain "clear vision" of their responsibilities to citizens. When we believe in something - and stand firm in our principles and values - we gain a clear compass and a clear conscience to do the right thing for our country. </sub> I received an advanced copy of a letter from Bill Sali (R-Idaho) today explaining why he voted against pulling the troops out of Iraq. This letter will be going to Idaho news media soon. I was surprised to see the first two paragraphs...

Clear vision, not politics, should guide Congress

By Congressman Bill Sali

Sixty years ago, U.S. Senate chaplain Peter Marshall prayed that God would “give us clear vision, that we may know where to stand and what to stand for - because unless we stand for something, we shall fall for anything.”

Those words are moving in their simplicity and honesty. Only with the grace of God, with strong values, deep conviction of principle and ongoing willingness to listen and learn can leaders gain "clear vision" of their responsibilities to citizens. When we believe in something - and stand firm in our principles and values - we gain a clear compass and a clear conscience to do the right thing for our country.

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