Comments on: An Address to Hispanic Freethinkers http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:23:40 +0000 By: Rebecca http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23451 Rebecca Tue, 01 May 2007 21:04:17 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23451 Good luck learning Spanish; I've found the language very enjoyable. Good luck learning Spanish; I've found the language very enjoyable.

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23216 Ebonmuse Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:18:23 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23216 As Polly points out, the problem is not that Catholics occasionally transgress the rules set by the Vatican authorities, it's that most Catholics actively reject those rules. Poll after poll finds that overwhelming majorities of Catholic believers deny the medieval and irrational edicts of the Pope regarding birth control, masturbation and extramarital sex - as well they should. As Polly points out, the problem is not that Catholics occasionally transgress the rules set by the Vatican authorities, it's that most Catholics actively reject those rules. Poll after poll finds that overwhelming majorities of Catholic believers deny the medieval and irrational edicts of the Pope regarding birth control, masturbation and extramarital sex - as well they should.

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23214 Polly Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:45:51 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23214 @GH: Two points: 1)The first comment is not my position. I couldn't care less what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms...backseats, kitchens, fireplaces, etc. But, my wife is a perfectionist and this obviously plays into her views on morality and religion. BTW, she (and I) upheld the ideal, if you know what I mean, saving it for after the wedding. 2)The 2nd comment was more of an off-the-cuff remark by me so I probably need to explain. I think what's going on has less to do with honest "mistakes" than a total <b>indifference</b> to the tenets of the faith. Now, here, I'm going to play amateur psychologist and say that the indifference stems from a lack of actual belief (or a complete ignorance of all but the most iconic symbols associated with that belief). Deep down, I don't think people (Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise) really believe what they think they do. They just haven't been exposed to a culture of skepticism. They haven't considered other options. Once they start questioning their own presuppositions, you'll see a large shift away from the religion of their parents. Why do you think Dobson and his ilk are so concerned about the youth of this nation? Because they KNOW, once those kids go to college, chances are good that the next generation will abandon the faith in droves. You will probably disagree with me, but my point was not that perfection is a Catholic requirement, rather, my focus was on why there's such a failure rate among believers in general (again, ANY denomination) to adhere to their principles. The Church (Christendom) also teaches the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Here, too, it makes little sense that believers aren't equipped to better handle temptation...unless there really isn't any help at all? @GH:
Two points:

1)The first comment is not my position. I couldn't care less what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms...backseats, kitchens, fireplaces, etc. But, my wife is a perfectionist and this obviously plays into her views on morality and religion. BTW, she (and I) upheld the ideal, if you know what I mean, saving it for after the wedding.

2)The 2nd comment was more of an off-the-cuff remark by me so I probably need to explain. I think what's going on has less to do with honest "mistakes" than a total indifference to the tenets of the faith. Now, here, I'm going to play amateur psychologist and say that the indifference stems from a lack of actual belief (or a complete ignorance of all but the most iconic symbols associated with that belief).
Deep down, I don't think people (Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise) really believe what they think they do. They just haven't been exposed to a culture of skepticism. They haven't considered other options. Once they start questioning their own presuppositions, you'll see a large shift away from the religion of their parents.

Why do you think Dobson and his ilk are so concerned about the youth of this nation? Because they KNOW, once those kids go to college, chances are good that the next generation will abandon the faith in droves.

You will probably disagree with me, but my point was not that perfection is a Catholic requirement, rather, my focus was on why there's such a failure rate among believers in general (again, ANY denomination) to adhere to their principles. The Church (Christendom) also teaches the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Here, too, it makes little sense that believers aren't equipped to better handle temptation...unless there really isn't any help at all?

]]> By: GH http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23212 GH Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:56:55 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23212 'My wife discounts Catholicism as equivalent to non-belief. Her main reason for this stance is that she observes out-of-wedlock babies and lots of guilt-free pre-marital sex in virtually everyone who calls themselves Catholic. To her, and the Pope I might add, this is a HUGE sin. Personally, I think anyone who assumes a religious appellation and then blatantly contradicts its tenets ought to reconsider whether the label still fits and abandon it. Maybe then we'd see some really promising results in the surveys!' If any of this where true than you'd have exactly zero religious people. It shows a lack of understanding about the tenets of the religion. No religion on the planet expects it's adherents to be perfect and toe the line. They expect to offer forgiveness when you fail. Your no less a catholic because you have sex. You just haven't been perfect. 'My wife discounts Catholicism as equivalent to non-belief. Her main reason for this stance is that she observes out-of-wedlock babies and lots of guilt-free pre-marital sex in virtually everyone who calls themselves Catholic. To her, and the Pope I might add, this is a HUGE sin.
Personally, I think anyone who assumes a religious appellation and then blatantly contradicts its tenets ought to reconsider whether the label still fits and abandon it. Maybe then we'd see some really promising results in the surveys!'

If any of this where true than you'd have exactly zero religious people. It shows a lack of understanding about the tenets of the religion. No religion on the planet expects it's adherents to be perfect and toe the line. They expect to offer forgiveness when you fail. Your no less a catholic because you have sex. You just haven't been perfect.

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23120 Ebonmuse Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:44:24 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23120 A remark on valhar2000's comment: <blockquote>I got from it the impression that there are hrodes of people who are dissatisfied with a studgy and dull form of religiosity that they were used to, but who also feel at a loose end living a secular life.</blockquote> Yes, I agree. And that's why we need to reach them! Obviously, the battle is hardly won; what we have here is not yet a victory, but rather an opportunity. They've taken the first step out of religion, and we can encourage them to go farther by showing that it's not necessary to be religious to enjoy the kind of spiritual, meaningful life they rightly value. Also, I don't think the percentages of Hispanic freethinkers are that low. As the Times article points out, they're fairly comparable to the percentage of nonbelievers in America as a whole - a little lower, perhaps, but that's not surprising considering the highly religious backgrounds many of them emigrate from. A remark on valhar2000's comment:

I got from it the impression that there are hrodes of people who are dissatisfied with a studgy and dull form of religiosity that they were used to, but who also feel at a loose end living a secular life.

Yes, I agree. And that's why we need to reach them! Obviously, the battle is hardly won; what we have here is not yet a victory, but rather an opportunity. They've taken the first step out of religion, and we can encourage them to go farther by showing that it's not necessary to be religious to enjoy the kind of spiritual, meaningful life they rightly value.

Also, I don't think the percentages of Hispanic freethinkers are that low. As the Times article points out, they're fairly comparable to the percentage of nonbelievers in America as a whole - a little lower, perhaps, but that's not surprising considering the highly religious backgrounds many of them emigrate from.

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23097 Polly Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:09:06 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23097 I applaud your decision to learn Spanish - for that matter ANY 2nd language :). My opinion on the matter is summarized: "English first, but not English only." There's an old joke about how we in the US are a monolingual group while most other peoples are at least bilingual. (I'll spare you a retelling.) As for the main point of the article, those percentages looked very low. And like Valhar2000, I have to wonder if they simply won't all just become protestant evangelicals. My wife discounts Catholicism as equivalent to non-belief. Her main reason for this stance is that she observes out-of-wedlock babies and lots of guilt-free pre-marital sex in virtually everyone who calls themselves Catholic. To her, and the Pope I might add, this is a HUGE sin. Personally, I think anyone who assumes a religious appellation and then blatantly contradicts its tenets ought to reconsider whether the label still fits and abandon it. Maybe then we'd see some really promising results in the surveys! Speaking of immigrants and religion: In the Church I (occasionally) attend, there's always the lament that many in the community are "lost." This is partly due to many having come from a former Soviet republic where atheism was the default, not an exception. My own best friend growing up who was born over there - who I tried to convert, LOL! - regarded religion as a business capitalizing on dupes. He literally laughed in my face when, in response to his question, I told him that a repentant murderer could get into heaven, knowing that I believed a nonbeliever would end up in Hell. Religion teaches some bizarre ideas. This is obvious to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated their whole lives. I applaud your decision to learn Spanish - for that matter ANY 2nd language :). My opinion on the matter is summarized: "English first, but not English only." There's an old joke about how we in the US are a monolingual group while most other peoples are at least bilingual. (I'll spare you a retelling.)

As for the main point of the article, those percentages looked very low. And like Valhar2000, I have to wonder if they simply won't all just become protestant evangelicals. My wife discounts Catholicism as equivalent to non-belief. Her main reason for this stance is that she observes out-of-wedlock babies and lots of guilt-free pre-marital sex in virtually everyone who calls themselves Catholic. To her, and the Pope I might add, this is a HUGE sin.
Personally, I think anyone who assumes a religious appellation and then blatantly contradicts its tenets ought to reconsider whether the label still fits and abandon it. Maybe then we'd see some really promising results in the surveys!

Speaking of immigrants and religion: In the Church I (occasionally) attend, there's always the lament that many in the community are "lost." This is partly due to many having come from a former Soviet republic where atheism was the default, not an exception. My own best friend growing up who was born over there - who I tried to convert, LOL! - regarded religion as a business capitalizing on dupes. He literally laughed in my face when, in response to his question, I told him that a repentant murderer could get into heaven, knowing that I believed a nonbeliever would end up in Hell. Religion teaches some bizarre ideas. This is obvious to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated their whole lives.

]]> By: valhar2000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23094 valhar2000 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:16:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23094 I do not share your optimistic interpretation of that article, Adam. I got from it the impression that there are hrodes of people who are dissatisfied with a studgy and dull form of religiosity that they were used to, but who also feel at a loose end living a secular life. It seems to me that these are prime targets for those active, enthusiastic and bombastic evangelical megachurces that infest the US; and, as we know, those churches spouse some of the most pernicious views to be found within modern american society. As an aside, I am Spanish myself; good luck learning it! I do not share your optimistic interpretation of that article, Adam. I got from it the impression that there are hrodes of people who are dissatisfied with a studgy and dull form of religiosity that they were used to, but who also feel at a loose end living a secular life. It seems to me that these are prime targets for those active, enthusiastic and bombastic evangelical megachurces that infest the US; and, as we know, those churches spouse some of the most pernicious views to be found within modern american society.

As an aside, I am Spanish myself; good luck learning it!

]]> By: Susan http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23092 Susan Wed, 18 Apr 2007 03:55:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/hispanic-freethinkers.html#comment-23092 This is a very interesting post! I live in a "Bordertown," El Paso, TX. Basically, we're right next to Ciudad Juarez, on of the largest Mexican cities. You can see Mexico by standing on the roof of my house and looking South. However, I've always felt that people in this town are extremely religious. I should also say that El Paso is predominantly Hispanic. Most people here are bilingual. Believe me, I'm learning Spanish quickly! ;) Most people, when they find out that I'm an atheist are surprised and, to be honest, a little apprehensive. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't have a large amount of faith in Christianity. I know there must be other atheists, humanists, etc, in town, but we're not very connected, obviously. When I am able, I would like to start a group for atheists, or at the least, skeptics in the area. I think that's what we need down here. We need to know that we're not alone. This is a very interesting post! I live in a "Bordertown," El Paso, TX. Basically, we're right next to Ciudad Juarez, on of the largest Mexican cities. You can see Mexico by standing on the roof of my house and looking South.

However, I've always felt that people in this town are extremely religious. I should also say that El Paso is predominantly Hispanic. Most people here are bilingual. Believe me, I'm learning Spanish quickly! ;) Most people, when they find out that I'm an atheist are surprised and, to be honest, a little apprehensive. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't have a large amount of faith in Christianity. I know there must be other atheists, humanists, etc, in town, but we're not very connected, obviously.

When I am able, I would like to start a group for atheists, or at the least, skeptics in the area. I think that's what we need down here. We need to know that we're not alone.

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