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	<title>Comments on: The Milgram Obedience Experiment</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 16:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-30345</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-30345</guid>
		<description>Great link! Thanks for bringing that paper to my attention; I definitely have to track down and read the whole thing.

That result doesn't surprise me at all - I wrote about a similar principle last year, in "&lt;a href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/smoothing-out-the-rough-edges.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Smoothing Out the Rough Edges&lt;/a&gt;". I would imagine that most "conventional" religious people are the ones who are most apt to follow authority, to take the path of least resistance, and so they're most susceptible to commands like this. On the other hand, there's an element of non-conformism in either excessive religiosity or in nonbelief, so we'd expect that they'd be more resistant to social pressure to conform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great link! Thanks for bringing that paper to my attention; I definitely have to track down and read the whole thing.</p>
<p>That result doesn't surprise me at all - I wrote about a similar principle last year, in "<a href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/smoothing-out-the-rough-edges.html" rel="nofollow">Smoothing Out the Rough Edges</a>". I would imagine that most "conventional" religious people are the ones who are most apt to follow authority, to take the path of least resistance, and so they're most susceptible to commands like this. On the other hand, there's an element of non-conformism in either excessive religiosity or in nonbelief, so we'd expect that they'd be more resistant to social pressure to conform.</p>
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		<title>By: The 327th Male</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-30342</link>
		<dc:creator>The 327th Male</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-30342</guid>
		<description>Someone has done the Milgram experiment &lt;a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0034-673X(197221)13%3A3%3C185%3ARBAAFI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q#abstract" rel="nofollow"&gt;with religious belief as a focus.&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Thirty subjects selected from a college population were evaluated according to three religious beliefs' scales. They were subsequently exposed to a modified version of Milgram's (1963) procedure in which they were instructed to administer "shocks" to a victim for supposed "errors" on a learning task. Although it was hypothesized that persons scoring in the mid-range of religious scales would be less obedient than extremes, it was in fact found that moderate believers administered significantly more punishment than either the religious or nonreligious extremes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hmmm. Perhaps people taking the middle ground of religious belief could be seen as just following the general consensus, and therefore be more susceptible to authority's influence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone has done the Milgram experiment <a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0034-673X(197221)13%3A3%3C185%3ARBAAFI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q#abstract" rel="nofollow">with religious belief as a focus.</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Thirty subjects selected from a college population were evaluated according to three religious beliefs' scales. They were subsequently exposed to a modified version of Milgram's (1963) procedure in which they were instructed to administer "shocks" to a victim for supposed "errors" on a learning task. Although it was hypothesized that persons scoring in the mid-range of religious scales would be less obedient than extremes, it was in fact found that moderate believers administered significantly more punishment than either the religious or nonreligious extremes.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hmmm. Perhaps people taking the middle ground of religious belief could be seen as just following the general consensus, and therefore be more susceptible to authority's influence.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-30202</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-30202</guid>
		<description>My social psychology class in college probably had the most impact on my life of any class (I was a computer science major). Simply knowing about these social tendencies can change your whole approach to tense situations. It also sheds light onto lots of the weird things we see every day.

One of the things that always stuck with me from the social psych class was from a discussion of the Jonestown mass suicides. Our professor was absolutely positive that he would have drunk the poison had he been there. The point is that these social influences are instinctual, reflexive, and very very strong. None of us can pretend to be completely above them, not even research social psychologists who understand them better than anyone. We are certainly well-advised to be aware of these influences, but we cannot hope to win out over them all the time (I personally fall into the &lt;i&gt;diffusion of responsibility&lt;/i&gt; trap more than I care to admit).

So I don't think it's wise to rationalize or speculate about how athiests would perform better in the Milgram experiment, or any such experiment for that matter. I think any group of people who weren't already familiar with the experiment (or something similar) would do just as poorly, regardless of their religious views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My social psychology class in college probably had the most impact on my life of any class (I was a computer science major). Simply knowing about these social tendencies can change your whole approach to tense situations. It also sheds light onto lots of the weird things we see every day.</p>
<p>One of the things that always stuck with me from the social psych class was from a discussion of the Jonestown mass suicides. Our professor was absolutely positive that he would have drunk the poison had he been there. The point is that these social influences are instinctual, reflexive, and very very strong. None of us can pretend to be completely above them, not even research social psychologists who understand them better than anyone. We are certainly well-advised to be aware of these influences, but we cannot hope to win out over them all the time (I personally fall into the <i>diffusion of responsibility</i> trap more than I care to admit).</p>
<p>So I don't think it's wise to rationalize or speculate about how athiests would perform better in the Milgram experiment, or any such experiment for that matter. I think any group of people who weren't already familiar with the experiment (or something similar) would do just as poorly, regardless of their religious views.</p>
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		<title>By: Kullervo</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23525</link>
		<dc:creator>Kullervo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 16:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23525</guid>
		<description>Not so, Aydin.  Soliders are absolutely supposed to refuse to obey unlawful orders- it's a matter of national and international law.  I can't speak for other countries' militaries, but I know that when I went through basic trainign and infantry school at Fort Benning, we were explicitly taught to say no to illegal orders- after clarifying exactly what you're being to do, of course.

Now, it should be said that there seems to be a lot of "wink-and-nod" that goes on, but at least in the US Military, a soldier who is accused of not following orders gets a court martial under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, where the overseeing tribunal will be most interested in the unlawful nature of said orders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not so, Aydin.  Soliders are absolutely supposed to refuse to obey unlawful orders- it's a matter of national and international law.  I can't speak for other countries' militaries, but I know that when I went through basic trainign and infantry school at Fort Benning, we were explicitly taught to say no to illegal orders- after clarifying exactly what you're being to do, of course.</p>
<p>Now, it should be said that there seems to be a lot of "wink-and-nod" that goes on, but at least in the US Military, a soldier who is accused of not following orders gets a court martial under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, where the overseeing tribunal will be most interested in the unlawful nature of said orders.</p>
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		<title>By: Aydin Orstan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23259</link>
		<dc:creator>Aydin Orstan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23259</guid>
		<description>The problem with soldiers is that they have to obey their orders. Otherwise, they will be punished and in the past could have even gotten executed especially during a war. In any army the responsibility is really with the top officers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with soldiers is that they have to obey their orders. Otherwise, they will be punished and in the past could have even gotten executed especially during a war. In any army the responsibility is really with the top officers.</p>
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		<title>By: Archi Medez</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23254</link>
		<dc:creator>Archi Medez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23254</guid>
		<description>One of the problems in attempting to analyze the effects of religious belief and membership in a religion is complexity; there are so many variables involved. Milgram's study focussed on one of the important social psychological variables, obedience, which is important in any social organization of two or more people in which one demands something of the other. In particular, Milgram focussed on obedience in relation to the perceived (or believed) authority. Religious leaders have historically used the social psychological power of human authority, enhanced by the backing of an unassailable divine authority, in order to get people to obey with least resistance any rule or command, however arbitrary, irrational, or immoral. One can learn much about religion through the study of social psychology. Milgram's study is an excellent example of this. There is also now a fairly well-developed body of research in social psychology dealing with religion. Indeed, the psychology of religion has emerged as a discipline in its own right.

P.S. I believe Milgram had followed up this famous study with several others varying on the same theme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the problems in attempting to analyze the effects of religious belief and membership in a religion is complexity; there are so many variables involved. Milgram's study focussed on one of the important social psychological variables, obedience, which is important in any social organization of two or more people in which one demands something of the other. In particular, Milgram focussed on obedience in relation to the perceived (or believed) authority. Religious leaders have historically used the social psychological power of human authority, enhanced by the backing of an unassailable divine authority, in order to get people to obey with least resistance any rule or command, however arbitrary, irrational, or immoral. One can learn much about religion through the study of social psychology. Milgram's study is an excellent example of this. There is also now a fairly well-developed body of research in social psychology dealing with religion. Indeed, the psychology of religion has emerged as a discipline in its own right.</p>
<p>P.S. I believe Milgram had followed up this famous study with several others varying on the same theme.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23251</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23251</guid>
		<description>This idea is very true of Christian belief. In a number of cases during the First Crusade (c. 1096) the laity that actually fought the battles in Jerusalem did not clash swords in the name of God (although the nobility commanded through God) they did it for one major reason. 1) Because they were indebted to their feudal Lords and obeyed their commands. Good English peasantry went against their ethical beliefs and fought the Turks because they were told to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This idea is very true of Christian belief. In a number of cases during the First Crusade (c. 1096) the laity that actually fought the battles in Jerusalem did not clash swords in the name of God (although the nobility commanded through God) they did it for one major reason. 1) Because they were indebted to their feudal Lords and obeyed their commands. Good English peasantry went against their ethical beliefs and fought the Turks because they were told to.</p>
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		<title>By: SM</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23235</link>
		<dc:creator>SM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23235</guid>
		<description>It strikes me that one of the most rarely discussed flaws in human nature is willingness to obey illegitimate authority.  The worst evil comes from evil institutions, not evil men, because the reach of any man is limited.  Yet almost everything good we have depends upon cooperation (one reason that I have little sympathy for libertarians).  Striking a balance between the extremes of tyranny and anarchy is a tough problem, although like most such problems Western societies mostly have adequate solutions at the moment.  But  we have scotched the snake, not killed it, as witness recent events in various English-speaking countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It strikes me that one of the most rarely discussed flaws in human nature is willingness to obey illegitimate authority.  The worst evil comes from evil institutions, not evil men, because the reach of any man is limited.  Yet almost everything good we have depends upon cooperation (one reason that I have little sympathy for libertarians).  Striking a balance between the extremes of tyranny and anarchy is a tough problem, although like most such problems Western societies mostly have adequate solutions at the moment.  But  we have scotched the snake, not killed it, as witness recent events in various English-speaking countries.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23231</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23231</guid>
		<description>My dad was one of the subjects. Mom was on the Yale faculty and read about it (she had no inside knowledge).
 He was one of the ones who refused to go all the way. He was not religious, although brought up Christian and with a mother who became Christian Scientist later in life. He was an only child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dad was one of the subjects. Mom was on the Yale faculty and read about it (she had no inside knowledge).<br />
 He was one of the ones who refused to go all the way. He was not religious, although brought up Christian and with a mother who became Christian Scientist later in life. He was an only child.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23230</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/04/milgram-experiment.html#comment-23230</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Who, knowing about this study, would not think twice if they ever found themselves in a similar situation?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Of course, lots of people like to &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; that they would.  But short of repeating the experiment, how can we know for sure?  They might be fooling themselves just as much as the original researchers who expected very few people to obey.

I'm sure the original subjects would have predicted that they would never do something they thought was wrong just because an authority figure told them to.  But they did exactly that.

Keeping in mind the limitations of anecdotes, I think Wedge's illustrates this point pretty well.  Even with the example of WWII Germany in front of him, that person displays similar blind deference to the authorities in his own life.  I bet I can guess whether or not that person is standing up to what is going on *now* in *this* country (well, assuming that he is from the US, which I suppose I shouldn't assume on the Internet.)

Polly: I think that would be quite likely.  Any atheist in the present-day US is already resisting considerable social pressure or they wouldn't *be* an atheist in the present-day US.  If they can resist one kind of social pressure it's not that unlikely that they could resist another.  But of course that's only speculation without data (and may be self-serving bias, since as an atheist myself, of course I want to believe we're more resistant to that kind of manipulation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Who, knowing about this study, would not think twice if they ever found themselves in a similar situation?</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, lots of people like to <i>think</i> that they would.  But short of repeating the experiment, how can we know for sure?  They might be fooling themselves just as much as the original researchers who expected very few people to obey.</p>
<p>I'm sure the original subjects would have predicted that they would never do something they thought was wrong just because an authority figure told them to.  But they did exactly that.</p>
<p>Keeping in mind the limitations of anecdotes, I think Wedge's illustrates this point pretty well.  Even with the example of WWII Germany in front of him, that person displays similar blind deference to the authorities in his own life.  I bet I can guess whether or not that person is standing up to what is going on *now* in *this* country (well, assuming that he is from the US, which I suppose I shouldn't assume on the Internet.)</p>
<p>Polly: I think that would be quite likely.  Any atheist in the present-day US is already resisting considerable social pressure or they wouldn't *be* an atheist in the present-day US.  If they can resist one kind of social pressure it's not that unlikely that they could resist another.  But of course that's only speculation without data (and may be self-serving bias, since as an atheist myself, of course I want to believe we're more resistant to that kind of manipulation).</p>
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