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On Atheist Fundamentalism

There has been something of a spat lately in the atheist blogosphere, due to an announcement from Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain at Harvard. Epstein and the Harvard Humanist Chaplaincy are sponsoring an event to, in their own words, "take on... atheist 'fundamentalists'" such as Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, and promote the value of humanism and inclusiveness. The Associated Press has run an article on Epstein's announcement.

These comments have drawn a sharp response from those who feel that Epstein is lending support to the slurs religious zealots frequently hurl against atheists who dare to speak out. Austin Cline and Brian Flemming take the lead in raking him over the coals, while Friendly Atheist has an insider's perspective on the feud, along with a link to Greg Epstein's own response.

Much of my feelings on the matter depends on the precise sentiment that Epstein intended to convey. If he is saying that it is possible and desirable to speak our minds, but that we should take care to do so in a way that does not cause needless personal offense, then I agree with that. I have said as much myself many times. We can and should strongly criticize religious belief systems with which we disagree, but we should not generalize religious people as stupid, dishonest, or brainwashed. Those terms are not true and using them adds nothing to the conversation except to pointlessly offend and alienate believers. Regardless of how strongly we may disagree with them, there are many people who are sincere in their belief and believe for what are, to them, clear and convincing reasons. We should acknowledge this. Again, I am not in disagreement with any of this so far.

However, Epstein's use of the word "fundamentalist" - even in scare quotes - to describe his fellow nonbelievers was a poor choice. Even if he meant something more benign than the AP story's interpretation of its meaning, he had to know that word would be seized upon by opponents of atheism who are eager to overlook such subtle distinctions. That is a disreputable word for a reason, and Epstein's long list of clarifications pointing out ways in which Dawkins, Harris and others differentiate themselves from literalist religious fanatics shows that he knows this. If he chose this word just to drum up controversy, that was wrong, and he should retract it. For his graceful response, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I hope he will be more careful in the future.

The problem is that use of this word only gives credibility to truly obnoxious and dishonest examples of anti-atheist sophistry, such as this article by Guardian writer Stuart Jeffries:

"We are witnessing a social phenomenon that is about fundamentalism," says Colin Slee, the Dean of Southwark. "Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world are just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs on the tube, the hardline settlers on the West Bank and the anti-gay bigots of the Church of England.

Let's slow down and think about this for a moment. Atheists like Richard Dawkins are just as fundamentalist as these other groups? Have any atheists claimed that Christians should not be permitted to marry each other or adopt children, the way some Christians do about gays? How many buses has Richard Dawkins bombed in the name of converting people to atheism?

What I find truly repugnant is the attitude that would equate atheists honestly and forthrightly speaking their minds with the religious zealots who try to terrify others into obedience through deliberate and planned campaigns of murderous violence. In what bizarre and demented ethical system are these two things comparable? Apparently, as far as Slee is concerned, having Richard Dawkins say some mean things to him would be every bit as bad as being blown into bloody shreds by a fanatic who sets off an explosive belt in a crowded public place. No one who espouses such a ludicrous view deserves to be taken seriously.

Or take Jeffries' comments on Christopher Hitchens' upcoming God Is Not Great:

Its first chapter, drolly entitled Putting it Mildly, concludes: "As I write these words and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything."

...John Gray, professor of European Thought at the London School of Economics, whose book Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia will be published later this year, detects parallels between dogmatic believers and dogmatic unbelievers such as Hitchens and Dawkins.

Again, let us set aside this condescending stereotyping and consider the facts. Is Hitchens' point actually wrong? Is Jeffries denying that there are religious believers who seek to murder and destroy in the name of their god? Surely not, since he alludes to the July 7, 2005 London transit bombings earlier in this same essay. But if Hitchens' point is accurate - which it is - then Jeffries must be saying that even if it is true, we atheists shouldn't talk about it. After all, correctly pointing out true facts would obviously be rude, uncivil and (heaven forbid!) "fundamentalist". Apparently, "respecting" another person's religion requires not criticizing that religion even for the wrong things it has actually done.

"What I find really distasteful is not just the tone of their rhetoric, but their lack of doubt," [Rabbi Neuberger] says. "No scientific method says that there is no doubt. If you don't accept there's doubt in all things, you're being intellectually dishonest."

No, the true intellectual dishonesty is displayed by apologists who accuse atheists of being dogmatic simply because they have any opinion at all. I will not presume the right to speak for Richard Dawkins, but I can speak for myself. Like many atheists, I would be perfectly willing to change my mind if the correct evidence turns up, but no such evidence has turned up. (EDIT: Dawkins agrees.)

Having doubt in all things means reserving the right to change your opinion if contradictory evidence comes to light. It most certainly does not mean you cannot have confidence in your opinion or cannot argue strongly in its favor in the absence of such evidence. This attitude - the sophistic demand for "doubt" - is nothing more nor less than saying, "Since nobody can be absolutely sure that their view is correct, we should act as if every view is equally plausible and never state any opinion too strongly." The only thing this position would accomplish is to ensure that we never find out who, if anyone, is in error. In that regard, Dawkins and others who take a strong stand for atheism - and expose it to criticism if it proves to be incorrect - are far greater friends of reason and doubt than religious apologists who make these facetious demands for false humility.

Jeffries closes with a revealing comment about the kind of discourse he and others are actually seeking:

What should such a public square be like? It might not be Menckian, but it could be based on respectful understanding of others' most cherished beliefs, argues Spencer: "We should be more willing to treat other value systems as coherent, reasonable and even valuable rather than as primitive or grotesque mutations of liberal humanism to which every sane person adheres."

But what if I do not think that a value system is coherent, reasonable or valuable? Should I lie through a pasted-on smile, speaking words I do not believe, just for the sake of ensuring that people I disagree with don't feel bad?

The position being advanced here seems to be that if a belief system is held by many people, it automatically becomes "coherent, reasonable and even valuable" and should be treated accordingly. This is categorically wrong. An absurdity remains an absurdity, a contradiction remains a contradiction, and an atrocity remains an atrocity, even if a billion people believe it.

In opposition to this, I believe the public square should see many more sharp-edged, uncompromising, unapologetic debates between people who strongly disagree with each other. I think every point of contention should be hammered out in full public view, every grievance and argument given a thorough airing, and the evidence for every position tried, scrutinized, and tested. It is in the vigorous cut and thrust of open debate that our critical thinking skills are honed and our understanding is truly advanced - not in the bland, insipid porridge of relativism. A few bruised egos are a small price to pay for all the intellectual and cultural benefits such an approach would bring, and I would much rather live in a society where everyone's positions, including mine, are constantly challenged than in one where people with passionate opinions are silenced in the name of not hurting anyone's feelings.

Does this make me a "fundamentalist"? Some will doubtless say so. And there is one sense in which I will accept this charge: I am a truth fundamentalist. I believe that the truth is superior to error, that the truth should be pursued above all things, and that we should uncompromisingly defend the truth once we have discovered it (and it can be discovered, though not everyone who thinks they have done so is correct). I am unapologetic about this position. This places me in contrast to people who apparently feel that other values, such as not hurting people's feelings, take precedence over the truth. I am proud not to be among those people.

Since I believe atheism is among the catalogue of true things, I will defend it. If anyone believes I am wrong, they're welcome to take their best shot and offer whatever evidence they have that contradicts me, and I will gladly engage them. But I will never bow to those who illogically embrace contradictory positions as equally plausible and valid, and who think that, by mutual consent, we should abandon our quest to seek the truth.

April 4, 2007, 7:17 am • Posted in: The RotundaCommentOptions

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68 Comments

Wow. Allow me to be the first to steal, "I am a truth fundamentalist," and everything that followed. Brilliant.

"I would much rather live in a society where everyone's positions, including mine, are constantly challenged than in one where people with passionate opinions are silenced in the name of not hurting anyone's feelings."

Of course you can say that: you're an excellent writer with great, well thought-out ideas, so I'd figure that you'd be home free in such a world ;-)

Another great post.

We are "fundamentalists" (read:extremists?) for speaking our minds? For exercising our rights under the First Amendment? I've read this in many places. Atheist fundamentalists, a term used by blogevangelists. Words can move mountains and bring truths to light, which might scare theists more than bombs and martyrdom as good xian soldiers. I hate that atheists can't come to any agreements on...our non-beliefs; but, honestly, what is there to agree on? We aren't a group held together by a common belief system. Atheists are incredibly diverse and the opinions of one atheist are the opinions of that individual and no one else. Evangelicals can't grasp the fact that what one atheist says cannot represent the views of other atheists as there is no prescribed doctrine to represent. We are just people who don't believe in a god and that's hardly a banner of unification. Not that I'm against atheists speaking out and joining together to make the message heard: We aren't doormats, we have opinions and a valid place in the workings of this country (US). I just despair when other atheists find it prudent to distance themselves from what they seem to regard as "fundamentalist extremist sects" of atheism. While doormat atheists are sitting on their haunches insisting that they aren't aggressors trying to wipe-out xianity, many evangelicals appear to have just that in mind for atheism. They would prefer that we don't exist, perhaps because our very existence sows seeds of doubt within their congregations and their own minds. We represent their own doubts and fears, yet we aren't afraid to talk about dying in the absolute sense - or living. A quote from your previous post:

John Avant: "If I really believed what he believed, I would be in despair. I would be living every moment in emptiness and maybe even terror".

Perhaps that's what really scares them? Of course it is. They would prefer an existence of talking to an imaginary friend over a life of true human relationships. I too will be stealing the statement that "I am a truth fundamentalist" - with your permission, of course). Thank you for your eloquent commentary, and my apologies for writing so much. This has been building up in me for a while, apparently. I followed your link from the sidebar at God is for Suckers, in case you keep track of that kind of thing. Peace.

Having doubt in all things means reserving the right to change your opinion if contradictory evidence comes to light. It most certainly does not mean you cannot have confidence in your opinion or cannot argue strongly in its favor in the absence of such evidence.

Well said. This is a distinction that needed to be explicitly stated. All opinions are NOT equal just because of the possibility of falsifiability.

There are many beliefs that are unworthy of respect. Respect is for people, not belief systems.

  • (Hey, this is pretty cool.)
  • Everything looks smaller, now. I hope my tag usage didn't cause problems. Never tried them before.

    Great post. I've become increasingly annoyed by the banding around of terms like "fundamentalist" and "extremist" and "dogmatic" with regards to atheists like Richard Dawkins. It's a ludicrous association, and nothing more than an attempt to drag us down to their level.

    I'm currently reading Alister McGrath's "Dawkins Delusion" and I intend to write a post on it. I'll save what I have to say for then, but he is probably the worst offender for this sort of propaganda that I have encountered.

    "Let's slow down and think about this for a moment. Atheists like Richard Dawkins are just as fundamentalist as these other groups? Have any atheists claimed that Christians should not be permitted to marry each other or adopt children, the way some Christians do about gays? How many buses has Richard Dawkins bombed in the name of converting people to atheism?" --Ebonmuse.

    Well said. The bizarre equivalency claims made by various kinds of believers or relativists exemplify how reckless they often are in their statements. We are expected to believe that the mere presence of a very small amount of one kind of "extremism" (e.g., alleged verbal excess) is all but equivalent to a very large amount of another kind of "extremism" (violently slaughtering innocent civilians in order to get one's political/religious message into the mainstream media).

    What Ebonmuse has identified here on the part of Epstein is perhaps partly rhetoric designed to push people's buttons, add drama, get attention, etc., but the kinds of equivalency claims being made are truly incredible. I recall, from the Muhammad cartoon crisis, various Muslim and non-Muslim apologists referring to the "extremists on both sides." Supposedly, the cartoonists and free expression defenders in that case were as "extremist" as the Muslims who were, in reaction to the cartoons, slaughtering people, fire-bombing embassies, taking hostages, placing bounties on the heads of the cartoonists, and so on.

    I think, on our (atheist) side, there have been some statements that could have been phrased a little better. I find it is necessary to write defensively in anticipation of having any given statement taken out of context and misrepresented. For example, Harris' statement about the "psychotic" OT God is something that can be easily taken out of context (wherein Harris demonstrates with examples from the OT supporting his statement) to make Harris look like some kind of (verbal) extremist. It is interesting that mainstream news media sources will often print a quote like that, but they will not print the actual verses in the OT that justify the conclusion that the character "God" is at the very least "psychotic". I'm not sure that I've ever seen a newspaper publish the truly objectionable quotes from the OT (e.g., death to blasphemers, apostates, homosexuals, adulterers, disobedient children, etc.). I find our side is held to a very high standard. We have to be nearly perfect and factual nearly all the time; whereas the other side is free to condemn us to hell-fires and torture for all eternity, or else make wishy-washy excuses as to why we should "tolerate" such unjustified enmity. We should remain factual, presenting evidence, facts, to support our views, and highlighting the instances of immoral, unjust policies in the Bible and Koran.

    When people like Epstein make such errors, the errors need to be pointed out, exactly as Ebonmuse has done. That puts the ball back in Epstein's court and obliges him either to respond and explain himself or allow our rebuttals to stand.

    I agree that "fundamentalist" may not be the best term here, but wouldn't you agree that someone who says "Religion poisons everything" has left the world of reasoned, factually supported debate behind? Do you really think that the whole history of religion has been one of evil, that people of faith have never made positive contributions to culture because of and not in spite of their faith?

    What really is the aim of this "New Atheism" movement? Is it just one more flavor of identity politics? Is that really what the world needs today? Or can we find ways to work together on the really serious problems we are facing - environmental degradation, economic inequity, and so on? I admire the approach of EO Wilson, who while not conceding anything regarding the science of evolution, is willing to work with evangelicals to preserve "the Creation" (as a metaphor for Earth's life support system.)

    Finally, one point on which Sam Harris and the Christian fundamentalists agree: Islam itself is to blame for terrorism. They're united against the liberal multiculturalists who want to find a way to reach out and support Islamic moderates. Beyond arguing that it "may be ethical" to kill people for their beliefs and speculating about when torture may be justified, Harris offers not one practical idea about how to deal with Islamic fundamentalism.

    The elephant in the room that no one is talking about is cultural imperialism. In most of the developing world, religion is inextricably bound up with culture. Is it really helpful to say to an ordinary Palestinian or resident of Sadr City "You have to give up Islam or we will never have peace?" That just plays into the hands of the extremists. Already these people have the completely justified belief that their welfare is not the concern of privileged white Americans like Sam Harris. Secular Saddam persecuted them, the US has let their society disintegrate into chaos, and the Sadrists are the only organization they can turn to for practical help. So how does it really help for Sam Harris to "freely and openly" criticize the Koran in New York or Los Angeles or wherever he lives? From a Third World perspective, he's just another in a long line of imperialists who have criticized other cultures for being backward on one hand and with the other hand have taken all they could of their resources and supported violent oppressive regimes. To paraphrase Bertolt Brecht's "Erst Brot, dann die Moral,": Justice first, then atheism.

    I admire your passion for truth. But, I think if your goal is to liberate people from oppressive beliefs, you should look at the Buddhist tradition, which has similar goals, and try tempering your rhetoric with a good dose of compassion.

    Vicki,

    Straw man arguments. Source for "Religion poisons everything"? Whoever it was, I doubt in context that it meant "that people of faith have never made positive contributions to culture because of and not in spite of their faith". I freely admit that religion has had some benefits and been the cause or motive for good things, I just think that all the benefits it offers can also be gained from other sources, without the draw backs of religion. Think of religion as a medicine which helps a bit but has terrible side effects. I think we can find the same treatment from other sources, without the side effects.

    The aim of the New Atheism movement? I don't know if the world needs any more "identity politics" but I think it's in dire need of the truth. That's what Sam Harris is achieving by arguing his case, he's under-lining the importance of the truth, and hard we should work to obtain it, whatever it is. Maybe it it's not what the Iraqi people need to hear. Maybe it is. Either way, it's not the point.

    tobe - "Religion poisons everything" was taken from the Christopher Hitchens quote in the original post, I assumed all commenters would have read the post carefully above but of course I was forgetting that we all read with our personal filters on. And I don't think it is a "straw man" argument to point out that when Hitchens or anyone else makes sweeping generalizations like that, they will lose credibly as rational conversation partners. Likewise, Harris' claim to be an expert on Islam after reading the Koran and the hadiths I treat with the same skepticism as I would another person's claim to be an expert on American politics after reading the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
    Of course it is important to speak the truth. But if your object is social change, your effectiveness will increase if you take into account how your message is likely to be received. It's just good pedagogy.

    It's hard not to be a "fundamentalist" when false ideas are constantly pushed upon you. We just use logic to defend our non-beliefs. Its part funny and part sad that that is seen as being an atheist fundamentalist...I agree that

    Atheist fundamentalists, a term used by blogevangelists.

    and it not a term that makes any clear sense.

    Vicki, Christopher Hitchens said "Religion poisons everything" because his schtick is to be a cranky, chain-smoking, pisser. He's also brilliant. Read his book on Mother Teresa (provocatively titled "The Missionary Position"), which explains his stance that because religions encourage aherents to do good works to 'please God' or 'achieve salvation', their works are not true charity because the works are done for selfish reasons.

    Silencing criticism of religion will not help anyone. How is the Sadr City citizen better off if Sam Harris DOESN'T criticize the Koran? Sam Harris still lives in an air-condition home, the Sadr City resident still dodges bombs on his way home. The fact that religion is often bound to culture only strengthens the argument for free discourse. Our American culture was only able to evolve into its current equal-voting, bus-sharing, South Park-airing state because the Constituion wrested a specific religion away from structure of society.

    Vicki,

    Thanks for pointing me to the source of the quote. I have read the article very carefully, but I've also slept since then.
    When you look at one quote out of context it can be called a sweeping generalisation, but the quote is taken from a book where Hitchens offers evidence to support his statement, thus making it "specific" as opposed to general.
    Whether Sam Harris, or anyone else is an expert on Islam, or any other religion is irrelevant. You don't have to be an expert to see the damage that religious faith, particularly in Islam, is doing to human beings. I daresay the families of the victims of 9/11 weren't experts in Islam either.
    Yes, you do have to think about how your message will be perceived, but that has to be balanced with your chances of achieving your goals. It's down to opinion, but personally I think it's time to speak out strongly, even if it means offending or upsetting a few people. Not through needless abuse or insult, but just by calling the situation exactly what it is, to borrow Harris' words, "a moral and intellectual emergency".

    There's a simple refutation of the word "fundamentalist" when applied to atheists. We share only one fundamental: our non-belief in any gods. If that's what makes us "fundamentalists," then we all fall into that category. If there are other characteristics and philosophical underpinnings that Epstein identifies as atheist "fundamentalism," then the term is meaningless.

    I don't see any other universal commonality among us. Almost all of us, I'd venture to say, put credence in science over superstition, but that's not a sine qua non for being an atheist. Most of us, I suspect, fight strongly for the separation of church and state, but, again that battle is not limited to atheists, nor do all atheists take part. We're far more diverse than the media would have the gullible populace believe. Even here in the blogosphere, we write with different voices and seem to have varying world views. Which of us represents the old, and which the "New"?

    The idea that Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, et al. have changed the atheist dialogue is nonsense. A-theists have been around as long as theists have. In the U.S., Mark Twain, Robert G. Ingersoll, H.L. Mencken, Clarence Darrow, and Langston Hughes -- to name only a few -- stated their free-thinking viewpoints far more eloquently than Dawkins or Harris have done. Was Darrow a fundamentalist? Was Hughes a "New Atheist"? What nonsense!

    Obviously, I strongly object to the concept that there's a "New Atheism" movement. Since I've already stated my points in a post on my own blog,Open Letter to Mojoey, I won't repeat them here. Suffice it to say, however, that we atheists ought to refuse, adamantly, to be categorized.

    "Vicki, Christopher Hitchens said "Religion poisons everything" because his schtick is to be a cranky, chain-smoking, pisser. He's also brilliant. Read his book on Mother Teresa (provocatively titled "The Missionary Position"), which explains his stance that because religions encourage aherents to do good works to 'please God' or 'achieve salvation', their works are not true charity because the works are done for selfish reasons."

    Yup. Hitchens may at times be brilliant (His book on Kissinger is a must read), but having him on your side is a lot like having Pete Rose over to talk baseball. Sure he knows a lot, but he's also a jerk who you wish would shut up a lot of the time.

    Vicki,

    "Do you really think that the whole history of religion has been one of evil, that people of faith have never made positive contributions to culture because of and not in spite of their faith?"

    "You"? Ebonmuse? I don't think Ebonmuse ever claimed that.

    What really is the aim of this "New Atheism" movement? Is it just one more flavor of identity politics? Is that really what the world needs today?

    Partly. The world needs less superstition, less injustice, including ideologically-based injustices, including but not limited to those based on organized religions. Criticism of injustice and immoral principles, not just challenging incredible or unsupported claims. Regarding the environment and economic equality, which you mention, Ebonmuse has addressed those very issues at this website.

    "Finally, one point on which Sam Harris and the Christian fundamentalists agree: Islam itself is to blame for terrorism. They're united against the liberal multiculturalists who want to find a way to reach out and support Islamic moderates."

    I don't think Harris claimed that Islam itself was the only factor that contributes to the terrorism carried out by self-proclaimed jihadist groups. Rather, Harris pointed out in The End of Faith that there is more than enough material in the Koran and Hadith to explicitly support hatred and terrorism against non-Muslims that the Islamic ideology's core doctrine is probably a major motivating factor. It is a misleading oversimplification to say that he is "against" moderates. Indeed, Harris wrote, in his article The Reality of Islam, that "...we should urge Muslim communities, East and West, to reform the ideology of their religion." What Harris has said is that such reform is going to be difficult given the contents of the Islamic texts. As an atheist, I assume he would prefer that believers reject the religion, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't prefer reform to the status quo. All anyone can reasonably expect, short of asking for apostasy (which should be available as a reasonable and safe option), is that moderates of Islam honestly acknowledge the problems in their scriptures, seek new interpretations, and work with others to take active steps to control the militant jihadists and radical imams, and to oppose the imposition of sharia.

    BTW, there are some Christian fundamentalists who do not think Islam itself is to blame for terrorism. Bush himself has declared Islam to be a religion of peace and that terrorism is not what Islam is about. That's an oversimplification in the other direction, but not all Christian fundamentalists blame Islam. Plenty of them prefer to blame the sinful ways of the West for terrorism against the U.S., Britain, etc.

    Liberal multiculturalists in their quest for inclusiveness should not forget to also embrace Islam's disidents, apostates, "heretics", etc. They are at greater risk of being persecuted or killed (by Muslims) than moderates.

    "Harris offers not one practical idea about how to deal with Islamic fundamentalism."

    One practical idea which is consitent with Harris' suggestions: Muslims should apostasize and become atheists. Another practical idea: We should continue to criticize those problematic aspects of Islam publicly, thereby putting more pressure toward positive change.

    "Is it really helpful to say to an ordinary Palestinian or resident of Sadr City "You have to give up Islam or we will never have peace?"

    It hasn't yet been tried. I think it is worth a try. It would not be a panacea, because Islam is not the only contributing factor to the problems, but it could have some positive effects. The status quo, with Islamic doctrine dominating the society and contributing to the persecution of Christian minorities in the PA, while inspiring terrorist attacks against the Israelis, certainly isn't working. Freedom of religion is needed throughout the Islamic world. To achieve that, specific aspects of Islamic law, such as the penalties for apostasy and "blasphemy" must be opposed. Moreover, the concepts of martyrdom (which promise rewards for killing civilians) as currently being taught in Palestinian schools and glorified in the media need to be rejected.

    That just plays into the hands of the extremists.

    How?

    "Already these people have the completely justified belief that their welfare is not the concern of privileged white Americans like Sam Harris."

    What people? And what does the color of Harris' skin have to do with this? Ad hominem attacks like are inadmissible, irrational, and immoral.

    Secular Saddam persecuted them,

    Secular Saddam, like secular Bush, believed in his religion. Saddam was a believing Sunni Muslim.

    "the US has let their society disintegrate into chaos,"

    The Sunnis and Shia militant groups and the insurgents, who are actually doing most of the killing there, do deserve some of the blame, don't you think?

    "and the Sadrists are the only organization they can turn to for practical help."

    Not if you're a Sunni! (Besides, what evidence do you have that, in the overall scheme of things, Sadr is actually doing less harm than good?)

    "So how does it really help for Sam Harris to "freely and openly" criticize the Koran in New York or Los Angeles or wherever he lives?"

    The American media is spread world-wide, such that what Sam Harris or Wafa Sultan or any other critic might say reaches other countries, including Islamic countries. This information is also conveyed by word of mouth between friends and relatives in countries where the media is more strictly controlled. By helping to establish the social acceptability of criticizing Islam (like any other religious or political ideology), Harris and other critics (many of them ex-Muslims) are helping win an important battle for freedom of conscience and freedom of expression for Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

    "From a Third World perspective, he's just another in a long line of imperialists who have criticized other cultures for being backward on one hand and with the other hand have taken all they could of their resources and supported violent oppressive regimes.

    Again, ad hominem, where you accuse Harris of being an imperialist "from a Third World" perspective. Don't you think there are any nonbelievers in the Third World? What about their rights?

    "To paraphrase Bertolt Brecht's "Erst Brot, dann die Moral,": Justice first, then atheism."

    Public apostasy and blasphemy are both illegal in Islam, and obviously such a ruling is unjust because it violates freedom of belief and freedom of expression. Also, again, atheists do not only criticize the factually implausible aspects of religious beliefs, but they also focus on the morally objectionable practices and beliefs in a religion. Thus, Brecht's quote, or at least your presentation of it in this context, presents a false dichotomy. Atheism and justice are not mutually exclusive.

    "I think if your goal is to liberate people from oppressive beliefs, you should look at the Buddhist tradition, which has similar goals, and try tempering your rhetoric with a good dose of compassion."

    1. "Buddha himself said, “The female’s defects … greed, hate, and delusion and other defilements – are greater than the male’s … You (women) should have such an intention … ‘Because I wish to be freed from the impurities of the woman’s body, I will acquire the beautiful and fresh body of a man’.”"
    Source: http://www.proutworld.org/features/status.htm
    The Status of Women in World Religions
    By Garda Ghista"

    That doesn't mean that all Buddhism is bad; it just means that maybe you should research it yourself before giving a wholesale endorsement.

    2. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Ebonmuse's writings lack compassion. That's certainly not been my impression--indeed, quite the opposite.

    3. In regards to your above comments about Harris' criticism of "backwards" beliefs, here is some of what Harris says about Buddhism:

    “….There are traditions of
    introspection which really do have something to offer us when it comes time to look "within." Granted, there is a lot of mumbo jumbo to be sifted through on this front, but it is simply a fact that a tradition like Buddhism has developed far more sophisticated methods of introspection than we have in the West…”

    http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/archives/001340.html

    I take that to mean that he doesn't dismiss it all as backward. At the same time, I doubt that he accepts it all without question.

    Vicki,

    One other thing, after reading your first comment. You said,

    "Harris offers not one practical idea about how to deal with Islamic fundamentalism."

    One idea that Harris does suggest in The End of Faith, is that the Western nations make the conversion from oil to renewable fuels NOW, not when we run out. By doing this, we help the environment, ensure our own economic independence, and take away power from the Middle East by taking away its income. As he points out, the Middle East countries are rich through a fluke of nature. I'm not making direct accusations against governments here, but one way or another, some oil money ends up financing terrorism, and taking that away could seriously damage the threat we currently face.

    Maybe it would work and maybe it wouldn't, but if this isn't a practical idea, I don't know what is.

    Tobe - terrorism does not occur because Middle Eastern societies are powerful, it occurs because they are powerless. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak against the strong - when you can't win via direct combat, you use "asymmetric warfare". It's not obvious to me that there's a lot of government financing for terrorism, and it's certainly not clear that removing power (as in, e.g., Afghanistan) at all facilitates the state of affairs where terrorism becomes less appealing. I suggest you study the philosophical (political) roots of the Islamism that underlies modern terrorism - you'll find that the best way to conquer it is, ironically, exactly that advocated by George Bush - democracy. Unfortunately what he fails to realize is that democracy does not flow spontaneously into societies and cannot be delivered in bomb casings.

    As to Islam - I must agree with Vicki's point. Suggesting that Muslims can improve their lot by apostasy and conversion to atheism shows an appalling lack of understanding of Islam and its importance as a cultural force. It is, frankly, a stupid prescription. Few Muslims will be inclined to accept it, and even if they do, they will be ostracized, rather than being able to positively influence their society away from radical strains of Islam. A moderate, reformed Islam is a MUCH more powerful force in this regard. Proximate and ultimate goals are not identical. This is a political truth.

    Saurabh,

    First, I tried to make it clear that I wasn't implicating governments in funding terrorism, not having the evidence to support such a claim. The most obvious example of my argument, as I understand it, is Osama Bin Laden who's family is wealthy from oil. You make a reasonably valid point about terrorism being the weak against the strong, but it is a philosophical argument. The bottom line is, pilot training, bombs etc cost money and that money has to come from somewhere. It wasn't really my intention to begin a debate on this particular point, simply to refute Vicki's claim that Harris had made no constructive suggestions.

    As far as the difference between Muslims becoming more liberal or deconverting completely, I think we'd call the latter our 'Plan A'. We're not in a position to be choosy, and any step Islam takes in the direction of liberalism will be gratefully welcomed.

    I agree that democracy is essential for development, and that Bush and Blair are not going about delivering it the right way. But do you really think the Middle East will be receptive any other way? And, if fundamentalist Muslims won't consider atheism, do you really think they'll be any more receptive to the idea of liberalism? Maybe a bit, but negligible, I think.

    tobe38: I didn't know that Harris made that suggestion in "End of Faith." I did read it but I guess not that thoroughly. You're right, it's definitely a practical idea that would defuse conflicts in/over the Middle East. Again, reducing dependency on fossil fuels is something that people from all different viewpoints, beliefs, and non-beliefs are going to have to work together to achieve. I walk, ride my bike, and belong to a car co-op for the times when I can't avoid driving.

    Archi: Wow, that's a lot of verbiage. The point I'm trying to make is that especially when it comes to Westerners prescribing to other cultures what to believe or not to believe, it might be in order to consider how the message might be received in the light of the history of Western intervention in that particular culture. Usually, and especially in the Mid-East, this intervention has not had the effect of increasing justice, peace, or economic equity. As Thich Nhat Hahn has said "Save us from your salvation." Sorry if some of my comments came across as ad hominem attacks.

    I'm pretty aware of the problems with Buddhism, having both studied it and worked with Buddhist mutual aid associations for Indochinese refugees. My point in mentioning Buddhism at all was its goal of ridding oneself of delusions and conditioned thinking, and the ideal of enlightened ones re-engaging with the world of delusion out of compassion for those trapped in suffering. To make the point that privileged, enlightened atheists might be more effective with a modicum of compassion. No reflection on the author of this blog, who seems a better advocate for his cause than the atheist-celebrities I was criticizing.

    As for Hitchens, I love a brilliant, cranky, articulate, alcoholic, chain-smoking Brit as much as the next gal. He had a point about Mother Theresa needing people to be poor.

    Love the essay, love the comments even more. Very energetic, very thought-provoking.

    Is it me, though, or does anyone else notice that quibbling over the labeling of atheists focuses the matter away from the argument, and more on the arguer?

    It's almost seems as if it is a well designed tactic to get us (atheists, rationalists, whatever) bickering among ourselves. While major news magazines spend ink and trees discussing the atheists, atheism itself is left unscrutinized.

    And if there is one thing that always works in our favor, it's scrutiny.

    Vicky,

    "Archi: Wow, that's a lot of verbiage."

    My apologies. There were many points to address. BTW, there is a history of negative interventions on both sides (Islam vs West, or Islam vs Africa or India) historically, but I don't think that's necessarily a reason for diluting the criticism on either side. Yes, from a persuasive standpoint hostile or insulting rhetoric should obviously be avoided, though some strongly-worded criticisms can have the benefit of getting people talking (e.g., Wafa Sultan's dispute with an imam on al-Jazeera last year, which got lots of attention).

    Returning to the cause of truth as the fundamental basis for justice and respect, I would just like to add my observation that religion apologists seem particulary fearful that an atheist's claim that there's no evidence for a god might become too well publicized in main stream media. As a child, raised as a catholic, I remember the shock I felt the first time I talked to a jewish boy, who in no uncertain terms told me he had no faith,whatsoever,in the dinity of Jesus. Suddenly, the world became a more confusing, yet exciting, place. If young people become aware through face to face or media introductions of intelligent, respected Atheists, who are quite sure of themselves, suddenly religion's received "truth" becomes very relative and the nature of Truth may become an object for investigation. I also want to say that, perhaps it is somewhat arrogant of us to refer to another nation's culture as a reason for not discussing with them what we consider to be the nature of truth as a basis for a just society. We need not imperially force our conclusions on anyone, but to avoid the dialogue because of a "cultural difference" is not helpful. We are all human beings,(even women, believe it or not).

    MKateS writes "perhaps it is somewhat arrogant of us to refer to another nation's culture as a reason for not discussing with them what we consider to be the nature of truth as a basis for a just society." I'm guessing that was directed at my comments, but where did I say that we have to avoid dialogue? I'm just saying, it's sound pedagogy to consider how your message is likely to be received and a modicum of cultural sensitivity and awareness of the historical setting can actually aid an ongoing dialogue. Also, consider what mode of discourse might be most effective. Are political polemics really the best way to reach hearts and minds? What about the arts? What if there was a way to fund travelling theater troupes, novelists, film-makers,and radio dramas to counter Islamic extremism and start discussions within those cultures, without seeming to co-opt the artists?
    What I see in some of Sam Harris' writings is the echo of the right-wing policy of "being tough on X", where X is crime, drugs or Islam, and that any attempt to analyze or contextualize these problems is "being soft." Yes, I'm a liberal, quelle horreur!

    Archi Medez makes a good point:

    I think, on our (atheist) side, there have been some statements that could have been phrased a little better. I find it is necessary to write defensively in anticipation of having any given statement taken out of context and misrepresented.

    I think that "writing defensively" is an excellent way to describe it. There are many religious apologists who are only too glad to tear our comments out of context, and we should anticipate that and foil them by writing with an eye to how our words could be misused. Unfortunately, when you have people like Sam Harris use the quite apt term "psychotic" to describe the Old Testament God, and back it up with pages of evidence, only to have journalists seize on the one word and ignore the evidence supporting it - well, there's only so much you can do to head off misrepresentation.

    Also, for Vicki Baker:

    I agree that "fundamentalist" may not be the best term here, but wouldn't you agree that someone who says "Religion poisons everything" has left the world of reasoned, factually supported debate behind? Do you really think that the whole history of religion has been one of evil, that people of faith have never made positive contributions to culture because of and not in spite of their faith?

    No, I don't think that, and I don't believe you'll find any well-known atheists (or any regular commenters on this blog) who do. Religion has brought some great art, architecture and music into the world, it has promoted many good teachings on morality, and it has inspired some ordinary people to astounding acts of charity. Those are plain, undisputable facts. It has also brought huge amounts of war, hatred, bloodshed and division into the world, has promoted many evil and horrendous teachings on morality, and has inspired ordinary people to hideous acts of evil. Those, too, are undisputable facts. The question is whether we have to take the good with the bad, and I don't think we do.

    However, even given Hitchens' well-deserved reputation as an all-around crank, I think you're giving that phrase the worst possible interpretation and one that is not necessarily supported by the context. It is not necessary to believe that religion has never brought any good into the world in order to believe that it has brought about a huge amount of animosity and division, even on trivial matters that no rational person would ever see the need to fight over otherwise. That is an equally valid interpretation of Hitchens' words, and one that I would definitely support.

    What really is the aim of this "New Atheism" movement? Is it just one more flavor of identity politics? Is that really what the world needs today? Or can we find ways to work together on the really serious problems we are facing - environmental degradation, economic inequity, and so on?

    I am perfectly willing to work together with Christians and other believers on issues of common concern to humanity. However, I reserve the right to criticize them on areas where we still disagree. This is especially true when it is the positions of some other believers that are in large measure contributing to these problems - like the apocalypse fanatics who claim there's no good reason to protect the environment since Jesus is coming back soon anyway.

    So how does it really help for Sam Harris to "freely and openly" criticize the Koran in New York or Los Angeles or wherever he lives?

    Because that is the only way we will ever get an Islamic reformation going. The moderate version of Islam you mention is an enemy of the fundamentalists just as much as atheism is. The only way to advance either is to attack the stifling ideals of oppression and militarism that are now popular in those countries.

    In addition, I reject the notion that for a Westerner to speak out against unacceptable practices of Islamic societies amounts to "cultural imperialism". The undeniably shameful history of colonialism does not mean that Islamic states today can do no wrong, nor does it mean Westerners have lost the right to criticize them when they do. Morality is universal, and therefore the right to condemn those who transgress it is also universal. Humanism is a creed that knows no national or ethnic boundaries, and there are freethinkers among Muslim societies just as there are freethinkers here. How could we not support them by promoting the repeal of the barbaric customs that have so far kept so many of them silenced?

    So what should we ornery atheists call ourselves?

    It's not nice to annoy a fellow atheist, but once again we've got someone bound and determined to promote himself by dividing atheists into artificial camps and slamming the side with which he doesn't identify. Greg Epstein, a "humanist chaplain"...

    I've read a lot of good articles on this site, but this is the greatest single treatise on atheism I've ever read. I couldn't help but comment; great job, Ebonmuse.

    I hope this article winds up in your book. Actually, I hope this article winds up in history books someday; I don't know of a single passage that more clearly communicates atheist ideas and passion.

    Ebonmuse, do you really think that non-Muslims writing fierce denunciations of the Koran "is the only way we will ever get an Islamic reformation going"?

    "The only way to advance either is to attack the stifling ideals of oppression and militarism that are now popular in those countries." Look how well it's working in Iraq and Afghanistan! How about we in this country try to prevent our government from arming the oppressive militarists in the first place?

    I say: "it's sound pedagogy to consider how your message is likely to be received and a modicum of cultural sensitivity and awareness of the historical setting can actually aid an ongoing dialogue"

    And you apparently hear: "The... shameful history of colonialism [means] that Islamic states today can do no wrong."

    Just an example of how communication can be difficult. How about instead of fighting about who has the right to criticize whom, we all listen to each other and try to figure out some solutions to common problems in which we are all deeply implicated?

    "Cross-cultural outreach is hard! Let's go blogging!" - Barbie

    Meanwhile I've been inspired by this discussion to research foundations or NGO's supporting creative expression in the Islamic world.

    John P. wrote: Is it me, though, or does anyone else notice that quibbling over the labeling of atheists focuses the matter away from the argument, and more on the arguer? It's almost seems as if it is a well designed tactic to get us (atheists, rationalists, whatever) bickering among ourselves.

    Nope not just you. I have thought to myself many times while reading all the various debates since this issue came up that this whole thing has a Rovian stench attached to it. Divide and distract is a very old and effective tactic. Like I said, it all has a Rovian stench to it.

    Ebonmuse, do you really think that non-Muslims writing fierce denunciations of the Koran "is the only way we will ever get an Islamic reformation going"?

    Yes. Why not? There are, without a doubt, secularists, freethinkers and potential freethinkers in Muslim societies just like there are in every other society on the planet. How can we get these people to speak out and mobilize as a force for positive social change other than by letting them know that they are not alone and that they have allies around the world?

    "The only way to advance either is to attack the stifling ideals of oppression and militarism that are now popular in those countries." Look how well it's working in Iraq and Afghanistan! How about we in this country try to prevent our government from arming the oppressive militarists in the first place?

    That is a good idea too, and I have worked to oppose the abhorrent militarism of the Bush administration. But even if America's foreign policy changed completely overnight, there can be no doubt that fundamentalist Muslims would not stop hating us. It was certainly not American imperialism that inspired the Saudis or the Taliban to enact brutal sharia law or force their women to wear burqas. Islam is not the whole of the problem; but it is a major part of the problem. As Sam Harris and others, such as Dr. Tawfik Hamid point out, there are many other cultures that have suffered the injustice of Western imperialism and colonialism without giving rise to persistent terrorism.

    "How can we get these people to speak out and mobilize as a force for positive social change other than by letting them know that they are not alone and that they have allies around the world?"

    How about writing a check, or a letter:

    Project Itjihad: http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ijtihad.html

    Amnesty International: http://web.amnesty.org/pages/aboutai-goodnews-eng

    Revolutionary Assn. of the Women of Afghanistan: http://www.rawa.org/index.php

    Refugees International: http://www.refugeesinternational.org/section/waystohelp

    More on the Atheist Feud

    Daylight Atheist has more information on the apparent feud with “fundamentalist” atheists.
    It seems that Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain at Harvard is sponsoring an event in criticism of these “fundamentalist” atheists. Mos...

    Are we Atheist Fundamentalists? GOOD GOD YES!

    Atheists have a central common creed, and follow it word by word, in that regard Atheists are SIGNIFICANTLY more fundamentalist than Islamic or Christian fundamentalists.

    Religious fundamentalists are only moderates when it comes to the fundamental question of Fundamentalism! Religious Fundies are conservatives when convenient and their texts have been selectively sanitized by religious elites for ages and even so they are interpreted in a manner conducive to the cause of gaining or maintaining power. (Or so history would tell us)

    Thus Religious Fundamentalists can really not be called Fundamentalist, because they lack the fundamental characteristic of fundamentally following the textual fundamentals. :)

    Having said that, I also acknowledge that those who coined this term are likely exploitative people, whose ends it serves to control the young, undereducated and indoctrinated and stay their decline into senility.

    By "Fundamentalist" I believe Colin Slee really was suggesting that Atheists are beginning to defend and spread their "belief" as aggressively and violently as the most extreme religious fundamentalists. I believe that Slee is two-fold wrong! He is wrong first because of the misnomer, and second because, as Atheists we do not organize. Our tenants exalt human life, and those which are codified are codes of conduct, which acknowledge the other's humanity and individuality.

    No reasonable person would attack so illusive and disunited a group as Atheists and call them "Fundamentalists" i mean come on! The only reason anyone has a problem with Religious Fundamentalists is because of their high levels of coordinated organization and their willingness to "burn for christ" burn for yourself!

    Thus Atheists are "Fundamentalists" in that we ardently follow the tenants of our (somewhat codefied)beliefs regarding how we treat each other, so we are Political Fundamentalists.

    Religious Fundamentalists are Moderate Nancy's!

    All excellent groups, Vicki, and all worthy of support. The question still remains, will we choose to speak out in defense of human rights and against militant fundamentalism, and if so, what do we say? If our issue is not merely with violent interpretations of Islam but with Islam itself, do we say that forthrightly? Or do we hold back, urging less than we want or even remaining silent altogether, so as not to further enrage the fundamentalists and potentially impede the efforts of those people working for reform from within the tradition?

    You linked to Irshad Manji's site, and if you click through and read her story you'll find something interesting. She was born a Muslim and still is. She is not an atheist, but a reformer who wants to revitalize her faith from the inside. What has that gotten her? Have the fundamentalists looked upon her more kindly as a fellow believer in Islam? On the contrary: her book has been banned, threats have been made on her life. She lives in a home with bulletproof windows. The response to her, as far as I can tell, has been every bit as savage and murderous as that directed against non-Muslims like Salman Rushdie.

    So what, then, do we say? What words of support do we offer? Please note that it is not only Muslims who are calling for the reform of Islam, but nonbelievers as well - people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, like Ibn Warraq, like Wafa Sultan, like Younus Shaikh, like Salman Rushdie - who come from these nations, who come from these cultures, and who had the courage and the strength of character to reject Islam despite tremendous social pressure, vicious threats, and even actual attempts on their lives. They are freethinkers, they are atheists, they are my brothers and sisters in mind and heart; and they are risking everything by calling for reform in the face of societies that would gladly see them dead. Should I leave them twisting in the wind? Should I not add my voice to theirs, even though I agree wholeheartedly with the principles they defend, because they are "too radical"?

    To ask me to do that is to ask me to betray myself. I will never remain silent rather than speak out in defense of what I feel is right. Their cause is a noble and worthy one, and I will stand by them without apology and without hesitation. If the fundamentalists want to rage, let them. If they want to slander us, let them. Our cause is the right one, and we will win in the end.

    In regard to your first paragraph Ebon:

    I agree, its a difficult position Atheists are placed in when our simple incredulity offends, and when we cannot question their beliefs forthrightly for fear of violent retaliation while they gasp and awe at our godlessness? And for that matter, Atheists don't even share a thing such as a 'belief' because history and science is our direct evidence.

    We have to realize that religious institutions are so ingrained into the functions of our society that our secular culture has developed methods not to piss off the fundamentalists... Thus people have found ways to remain silent and... let them come around in their own good time :)... If we speak out, and force our position on the "God question" upon Theists(and I acknowledge that there really is no question here) we will be directly imposing on their freedom of belief. So speak but don't tell - We are part of a great historical movement, a movement, which moves naturally, without pushing... let them come around and look to your own.

    Vellvoot,

    How, exactly, is forcing our position on the "God question" directly imposing on their "freedom of belief"? What do you mean by "force"? If you mean, as I think you do, being outspoken and blunt about what we think, then this has no effect on anyone's freedom to believe. You may as well say that a Christian's statement of belief in God imposes on our right not to believe.

    If we stand perfectly still, hold our breath, don't make eye contact and keep complete silence, maybe they won't notice we're here and get all offended and hurt, right? Nonsense. Time is not on our side. We don't have the luxury of leaving people to come around in their own time. We will never, as long as I've got anything to say about it, directly impose on anyone's right to believe, but this is the time to speak out and make ourselves heard.

    Ebonmuse:

    Let me repeat what I'm trying to say:

    "... it's sound pedagogy to consider how your message is likely to be received and a modicum of cultural sensitivity and awareness of the historical setting can actually aid an ongoing dialogue. Also, consider what mode of discourse might be most effective."

    Why this gets interpreted as an attempt to silence you I really don't know. Just consider it free advice from an elder (44 yrs.) who's done a fair amount of advocacy for human rights in cultures different from her own. Take it or leave it.

    In the realm of human rights, our first responsibility as citizens of a democracy is the human rights violations our government commits in our name. I'd be willing to bet that even as we've been having this conversation, our Homeland Security Dept. has rejected an asylum application from a gay person, feminist, or apostate from a hard-line Islamic country. These people deserve our support too. Not to mention what is going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo.

    Free speech is a wonderful thing, but one final suggestion: The next time you are in dialog with a Muslim of whatever level of conviction, considering listening at least 50% of the time?

    It's imposing on their freedom of belief if we ostracize them from society, prejudge them irresponsibly and overgeneralize in our classifications. We cannot responsibly make this a black and white issue. Its not Atheists vs. Theists... most Theists are just people who have been indoctrinated and... lied to since they were born, like the Santa Clause ruse that no one remembered to tell them was a cute joke. So we cannot hold them guilty, by our own, sacred standards we cannot hold them guilty. We MUST be out spoken, indeed but we ought not wander into the realm of punishment and persecution.

    that was merely what i was attempting to explain in my previous post.
    I think we agree here, however our sense of urgency differs perhaps... neither of us really know how urgent this need be.

    But don't get me wrong, speak freely, but don't over generalize and don't persecute - most Theists are victims.

    Heroic sentiments, eloquently stated, Ebon. Just one thing,

    "She was born a Muslim and still is."

    tsk tsk. She was born an atheist, like everyone else. :-)

    Vellvoot,

    Yes, overall, I agree that we agree :)

    I certainly don't want to persecute or prejudge anyone, or ostracise them from society or anything else. But I don't think speaking out, no matter how directly, qualifies as any of these.

    All theists are victims in a sense, you're right. But this only buys them so much leniency. Were the 9/11 attackers just victims? In a sense, yes, because religion ended up robbing them of their lives too, but we can't just say they're victims and leave it at that. Whoever the victims are, we need to be working to stop the direct harm that is being caused by religious faith.

    Glad we can agree.
    The line I think we all need draw with personal belief is when it no longer becomes personal, but a matter of public concern and security.

    so no, clearly the 9/11 attackers were not the victims, but the aggressors.

    tsk tsk. She was born an atheist, like everyone else. :-)

    Touché. Mea culpa. :)

    ...though according to the Hadith, everyone is born a Muslim:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah's Apostle said, "Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism, Christianity or Magianism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verses: "The pure Allah's Islamic nature (true faith of Islam) (i.e. worshipping none but Allah) with which He has created human beings. No change let there be in the religion of Allah (i.e. joining none in worship with Allah). That is the straight religion (Islam) but most of men know, not." (30.30) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441)

    As interpreted in Islamic laws, a person who has never voluntarily embraced Islam in the first place is considered Muslim if his/her parents are Muslim. If this person disbelieves and still does not believe in Islam after the age of puberty, and makes this expression of disbelief public, he/she is subject to the apostasy penalty (up to and including death).

    Ebonmuse, on reflection, I can see that it was quite naive of me to assume that your primary goal with this post was to establish how best to liberate others from oppressive delusions. I see now that the main goal was probably to establish your street cred among your cohort as a fierce, uncompromising warrior who's tough on religion. Obviously, you are quite successful at that.

    Good luck with the war on religion. I'm sure it has the potential to be at least as successful as the war on crime, the war on drugs, or the war on terror.

    I have stated my motives and my reasoning as clearly as I wish to, and I stand by what I have said. I find it unfortunate that you've decided my motives are insincere simply because we disagree on the best approach to protecting human rights. Apparently, you're convinced that we should not say or do anything about militant Islam abroad until we have first fixed every single problem in our own home countries, and that is unfortunate as well.

    I suppose reactions like this are a microcosm of what Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris routinely experience for speaking their minds. If that is the case, I'm happy to be numbered among them.

    Vicki wrote:

    "I see now that the main goal was probably to establish your street cred among your cohort as a fierce, uncompromising warrior who's tough on religion."

    and

    "Good luck with the war on religion. I'm sure it has the potential to be at least as successful as the war on crime, the war on drugs, or the war on terror."

    (bolding added)

    What was it you were saying, Vicki, about reaching out to people, and carefully expressing yourself in terms of how your message will be received?

    This thread deals mostly with the subject of over-the-top rhetoric (alleged "fundamentalist" atheists) and misrepresentations of other people's views. I think your statements (the ones quoted, and others) are prime examples of over-the-top rhetoric and misrepresentations.

    The analogy to "war" is misleading, but in particular is misleading in comparison to the (U.S. gov't's) wars on drugs, crime, and terrorism. The analogy fails insofar as what we atheists are doing, by contrast, is (a) non-violent, (b) focussed on beliefs and ideology, education, debate, and truth-seeking; (c) focussed on prevention more than crisis management, (d) operates on a relatively tiny budget, and (e) causing minimal real harm and violates no laws (except maybe blasphemy laws) or human rights. We are doing all of that without compromising our core positions on such issues as freedom of conscience (e.g., to change religions or have no religion), and freedom of expression.

    "Apparently, you're convinced that we should not say or do anything about militant Islam abroad until we have first fixed every single problem in our own home countries, and that is unfortunate as well."

    Ebonmuse, I never said this. I said our first - but not only - responsibility was to address the human rights violations our government commits in our name - including violations that enable persecution of liberal or apostate Muslims by oppressive regimes.

    In regards to conducting dialogue, what I said was "… it's sound pedagogy to consider how your message is likely to be received and a modicum of cultural sensitivity and awareness of the historical setting can actually aid an ongoing dialogue. Also, consider what mode of discourse might be most effective." How do you read that as "don't do or say anything about militant Islam abroad?"

    My criticism is essentially the same criticism Neil deGrasse Tyson makes in this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYBFqse7tiU and which Dawkins brushes off with an obscenity.

    I just encounter this punitive "tough on X' mindset in so many different situations, by so many different types of people. The right wing has been extremely successful at framing the discourse this way. I have a friend who served on the board of an organization which ran a highly successful prison arts program here in CA. There was ample evidence that the program resulted in a number of positive outcomes in prison and after release for the inmates. Nevertheless, our late unlamented Gov., Gray Davis saw fit to gut the program because it was important to his image to be "tough on crime." The fact that the program was actually effective in reducing crime made no difference - being seen to be "tough on crime" was most important.

    Forgive me if I can't help seeing a parallel with the "religion must be destroyed!" advocates.

    Archi writes: "What was it you were saying, Vicki, about reaching out to people, and carefully expressing yourself in terms of how your message will be received?"

    You're absolutely right Archi. Don't listen to me, I'm being a bad example. Listen to DeGrasse-Tyson in the clip above. I think there's a point to be made, but I may have blown it with that comment. It just seemed a good explanatory theory for how my message of "good pedagogy" got distorted to "don't say anything. I'll shut up now.

    http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/

    The term "fundamentalist" was not used literally, and was apparently supposed to be in quotes.

    The thing I most notice when I listen to Dawkins, is that he is gentle and thoughtful. I think most of the bad rap he gets is the rhetoric and propaganda from the Right. In fact, when I first began hearing the name Dawkins years back, I remember it was almost always in a negative light. Only now, upon actually hearing him speak and reading his book "The God Delusion", do I adore his work, and style of arguing, and the good humor (in the face of morons). We all need to spend less time patting eachother on the back, and do the dirty work of going to the Creationist websites. My new schtick is telling people that I am "still a good Christian" even though I no longer believe in the Holy Spirit or any of the other baloney I can't see or touch or that is not in the encylopedia. Another good one I heard lately is "I'm actually a tooth fairy agnostic".

    Here is some vintage Dawkins...
    http://richarddawkins.net/article,34,Der-Digitale-Planet-lecture,Richard-Dawkins

    "Certainly I see the scientific view of the world as incompatible with religion, but that is not what is interesting about it. It is also incompatible with magic, but that also is not worth stressing. What is interesting about the scientific world view is that it is true, inspiring, remarkable and that it unites a whole lot of phenomena under a single heading."

    "Science offers us an explanation of how complexity (the difficult) arose out of simplicity (the easy). The hypothesis of God offers no worthwhile explanation for anything, for it simply postulates what we are trying to explain."

    "It is almost as if the human brain were specifically designed to misunderstand Darwinism, and to find it hard to believe.."

    "There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out."

    "Paranormal phenomena have a habit of going away whenever they are tested under rigorous conditions. This is why the $740,000 reward of James Randi, offered to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal effect under proper scientific controls, is safe."

    http://richarddawkins.net/home

    "I am a truth fundamentalist" ought to be a catch-cry. So I do not apologise for propagating it on my blog (with credit given to the source, of course).

    Thousands or Billions,

    You wrote:

    "We all need to spend less time patting eachother on the back, and do the dirty work of going to the Creationist websites. My new schtick is telling people that I am "still a good Christian" even though I no longer believe in the Holy Spirit or any of the other baloney I can't see or touch or that is not in the encylopedia."

    If you are a non-believer and what you are advocating is the use of deceptive covers like "a good Christian", I think that's wrong morally, and gives us (other non-believers) a bad name. It just gives more examples that the theists can use to portray us in a bad light.

    To use deception, there would have to be some very strong justifications for it (e.g., like some kind of undercover police operation) or an agreement among the parties that deception can be used in a limited way (e.g., in games), etc.

    I do agree, though, that we (non-believers of various kinds) need to engage more in discussion on pro-religion websites.

    Vicki,

    "My criticism is essentially the same criticism Neil deGrasse Tyson makes in this video clip . . . and which Dawkins brushes off with an obscenity."

    This is very mis-leading about Dawkins' reaction. He actually said "I gratefully accept the rebuke", then told an amusing anecdote that had a swear word in. Not quite the same thing.

    DeGrasse Tyson grossly oversimplifies the situation, saying that Dawkins isn't a true educator because he just "puts the facts out there" without "pursuassion". I don't know what he's basing this on. As the true scientist he is, Dawkins always provides examples and evidence to "pursuade" people that he's right. This is why I find terms like "dogmatic" and "fundamentalist" so laughable when applied to him.

    Allright, back to posting after a long time away. Ebon, I just have a few questions about this whole post (or any other atheists who want to answer). First off, you assert repeatedly in the beginning that you think that no needless personal offenses need be made when talking with theists. And I'm wondering, why is this not an issue for you when it comes to people like Dawkins? I looked back through the review you wrote for his most recent book, the God Delusion, and the only reference that you make to this whole thing is worrying about the title of the book. Nowhere did you mention that Dawkins incessantly derides theists as uneducated, ignorant, and just plain stupid. Why is there a double standard here? If you're going to criticize such things here, why don't you use that standard equally and go after people like Dawkins, or more close to home, several of the posters on your site, who seem to have a good time insinuating that I am ignorant, a liar, or as Dawkins might assert, simply stupid. I'm curious as to why this bizarre lapse of objections exists.

    And I'm wondering, why is this not an issue for you when it comes to people like Dawkins? I looked back through the review you wrote for his most recent book, the God Delusion, and the only reference that you make to this whole thing is worrying about the title of the book.

    How can you claim that this is not an issue for me while simultaneously acknowledging that I criticized Dawkins for his choice of title? I hope you don't expect me to go through the book checking off each individual paragraph or sentence I disagreed with. Where I have objections, I have made them clear, and I don't feel I need to belabor the point.

    In any case, I nowhere remember Dawkins calling theists in general uneducated or stupid, either in The God Delusion or anywhere else. If you have evidence supporting this, feel free to cite it.

    Ebonmuse:
    Thanks for the swift response. I appreciate it.
    I made sure to go through The God Delusion and find plenty of evidence for you. Here's the list, with pages numbers and a little summary.
    Page 5: "Dyed-in-the-wool faith heads..." Doesn't really need an explanation.
    Page 6: Top of the page, discussion about religion and movement towards atheism. According to Dawkins, those who can become atheists are those who are either not indoctrinated enough or have enough 'native intelligence' to overcome their brainwashing. Ergo, those who cannot are simply idiots.
    Page 168: Christians (Roman Catholics specifically in this passage) are simply guilt-ridden individuals with "less than normal intelligence." First off, as a Catholic, I know this to be untrue, and secondly, if that's not an insult, I don't know what is.
    Page 199: Ridicules faith as a matter of beliefs defying evidence. Again, very much contrary to a great many strains of Christian thought and little more than a silly, unfounded attack.
    Page 229: Atheism is correlated with higher intelligence, education, etc., ergo, religion is correlated with lower intelligence, etc. This is listed as a 'good possibility,' not something he backs up with evidence.
    Page 231: Ridicules theists for "sucking up to God"; especially hilarious given that his Darwinian view of morality consists of people sucking up to other people.
    Page 316: More straw man construction and religious ridicule, this time about priests as people "whose professional life is largely dedicated to arousing guilt." Has Dawkins stepped inside a Church lately? I've been to plenty and rarely seen a priest who spends all his time arousing guilt. With little basis in reality, this can only be taken as an insulting attack.
    Page 317: Being raised religious is worse than being sexually abused. This one is just plain sick. I know plenty of people who have been raised religious, and in great contrast to sexually abused people, who are often riddled with psychological problems that last a lifetime, these religious individuals are quite balanced, sane, and otherwise well off.
    Page 360: Religious belief in a universe imbued with meaning by God is "infantilism."

    Need I go on? The point is, Dawkins goes well out of his way throughout the book not only to attack theists but to blatantly and unnecessarily ridicule them. Were any theist to come out and say so many insulting things about atheists, I have no doubt he would be fiercely condemned by you. Whether or not Dawkins and other atheists are right in their assumptions, there is no reason for you to try and convince everyone else by heaping scorn on them. As you said yourself, all this does is alienate people, and that is exactly what Dawkins is doing to the very people he's trying to reach. Yes, you did raise objections to the title, but that is a far cry from highlighting the openly arrogant and scornful language that permeates the book. I don't expect you to go through and name every paragraph, sentence, etc. I don't even expect you to name any of them. But given your statement that such brazen hostility is not a good thing, the omission in your review of Dawkins' rampant hostility is rather glaring.
    That said, what about the posters on your site? If you believe that such hostility is bad, and have a forum to voice that view, why not share it in more than just passing for your fellow atheists? I'm one of those theists you once called "civil and sincere," yet in the course of my posts on other threads, I've been incessantly insulted and degraded. This, without any provocation. Why?

    In relation to the topic of this thread, perhaps another one of the reasons some atheists are seen as dogmatic or fundamentalist in a sense because they have a tendency to embrace similar mindsets as those on the far Christian right. Take Dawkins for instance. In The God Delusion, he makes this nice statement on page 123 that in one chapter of Origin of Species (just one chapter!), Darwin "anticipated and disposed of every single one of the alleged difficulties (difficulties on the theory of descent with modification) that have since been proposed." Every. Single. One. I for one find this extraordinarily hard to believe, given the vast number of developments in biology between now and then. If Darwin dealt with all the problems, why the heck are we still investing so much in the study of evolution? Why do scientists argue about all the details? More than anything else Dawkins says, this smacks of dogmatism and unbending faith, not in a God, but in Darwin and his amazing book. I would honestly love to hear an explanation for this one.

    Jarrod, I'm going to respond to this, but this is going to be the end of discussion on this topic. It hasn't been productive and it has very little to do with the subject of this thread.

    I've gone through your list, and my conclusion is that you have either taken your examples out of context or decided that they were intended as insults when the text itself supports no such conclusion. For instance, your first one: "dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads". That term plainly is intended to describe people who are dogmatic believers in a religion and do not intend to change their minds. However, you seem to have read into it an insult directed at believers' intelligence. I see no such thing. Similarly, your complaint about priests "arousing guilt" is just a desire to interpret the situation differently from Dawkins, which does not make his words a personal attack. On the contrary, they are obviously an attack on the dogma itself.

    Or this one, a flagrant example of taking quotes out of context:

    Christians (Roman Catholics specifically in this passage) are simply guilt-ridden individuals with "less than normal intelligence."

    Here is the real quote, which is actually from page 167:

    It is hard to believe, for example, that health is improved by the semi-permanent state of morbid guilt suffered by a Roman Catholic possessed of normal human frailty and less than normal intelligence.

    Again, Dawkins' actual language does not support the implication you are attempting to read into it.

    Page 229: Atheism is correlated with higher intelligence, education, etc., ergo, religion is correlated with lower intelligence, etc. This is listed as a 'good possibility,' not something he backs up with evidence.

    Like it or not, this is true. Studies consistently show that the more educated a person is, the less likely they are to be religious. Here, for example, is one such study (it's the one by Bruce Sacerdote and Edward L. Glaeser). And once again, you have manufactured an insult out of Dawkins' words, rather than finding one in the words themselves.

    Page 317: Being raised religious is worse than being sexually abused.

    I can agree that this is one of the most controversial claims in this book. However, you seem to have neglected a rather important point, which is that Dawkins supports it with evidence. To wit, he cites a woman who was brought up Catholic and subjected to sexual abuse by a priest, and the woman herself states that Catholic teachings about Hell caused her far greater suffering. Here is her quote:

    Being fondled by the priest simply left the impression (from the mind of a 7 year old) as 'yucky' while the memory of my friend going to hell was one of cold, immeasurable fear. I never lost sleep because of the priest - but I spent many a night being terrified that the people I loved would go to Hell. It gave me nightmares.

    You are free to disagree with this woman's assessment, if you wish. What you are not free to do is make up your own facts and claim that this is a slanderous and unfounded insult which that monster Dawkins has invented to use against the religious.

    In closing, I have one additional comment.

    I'm one of those theists you once called "civil and sincere," yet in the course of my posts on other threads, I've been incessantly insulted and degraded. This, without any provocation. Why?

    I do not agree that you have offered no provocation. On the contrary, it seems to me that you have gone out of your way to be combative, to treat others condescendingly, and to cast aspersions on others' motives (such as your previous comment in this thread in which you claimed I had a "double standard"). I once said you were civil and sincere, but you can consider those remarks withdrawn. I've had a great many theist visitors to this site with whom I and others have been able to dialogue without the discussion breaking down. You do not appear to be one of them.

    Even if we accept everything Jarrod claims about Dawkins, when we move to the counter-point we see that the excesses of hostility expressed in the Bible and Koran toward non-believers, blasphemers, etc., clearly exceed by several orders of magnitude anything Dawkins may have said. Surely Jarrod realizes that drowning people in a flood, or stoning them to death for mere words (Lev. 24:16), or condemning them to eternal hell-fires and torture, are worse than mere verbal excesses (even if offensive) of Dawkins?

    Another thing about this accusation of atheist "fundamentalism" -- it's linking atheism with being anti-religion. It's possible to be an atheist and be neutral toward religion, or even pro-religion, in the fashion of Plato's Royal Lie and Marxian opium for the people.

    So are Dawkins and Harris anti-religion fundamentalists? I doubt it.

    And now for some advice for Jarrod:

    Love your enemies.
    Pray for those who persecute you.
    Do not resist an evil person.
    If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    And if someone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your jacket as well.
    If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

    I have said as much myself many times. We can and should strongly criticize religious belief systems with which we disagree, but we should not generalize religious people as stupid, dishonest, or brainwashed. Those terms are not true and using them adds nothing to the conversation except to pointlessly offend and alienate believers. Regardless of how strongly we may disagree with them, there are many people who are sincere in their belief and believe for what are, to them, clear and convincing reasons. We should acknowledge this.

    You and I are on the same page. It is a relief to know that someone else thinks this way!

    One thing that does concern me, however, is when you say:

    ...and it can be discovered, though not everyone who thinks they have done so is correct...

    Say I find the truth. If you disagree with me, it appears that you have a loophole by which you can invalidate my "truth" no matter how much evidence I claim to have. Could you clarify this for me?

    Propositions that are true will be consistently supported by evidence and observation. Believing something doesn't make it true. I think that's where you're confused.

    Just wondering and maybe this is not the place to pose this question but why does there have to be a debate at all?

    I believe in God, others do not. I have no problem with people being atheist or having a different idea of GOD than me. So why do people on both sides have to debate this? Makes no sense to me. Oh and why should you as you say "should strongly criticize religious belief systems with which we disagree". Instead of criticize why not just let people believe what they may and leave it alone.

    Just a thought

    Jim, I think you'll generally find that atheists would be quite content to live and let live, if only religious people would extend us the same courtesy and stop trying to force their religion on us. They started this conflict, not us.

    I am a theistscientist. I am an academic and a consultant.I passionately believe that abortion is both a sin and a terrible moral wrong.I beleive that abortion is one of the greatest evils of our generation(right up there with slavery, jim crow,genocide, etc). I dont advocate violence but I do advocate civil disobedience against abortion, and have participated in this. I have suffered professionally, financially, and physically, from my advocacy for the unborn.I beleive that we have a duty to defend the rights of the defenseless unborn. Does this make me a fundamentalist?

    and if I may add a followup: Mr. Ebon respectfully, I'm not really sure "we" started this. You know, they used to use the McGuffie reader to teach students in public school to read by using verses from the Bible. Prayer used to be commonplace in schools as well as daily Bible reading and teaching. Secular humanist teachers also indoctrinate a lot of stundents today in public schools and colleges. Hollywood, the liberal media also market a very secular, hedonistic "product". I think many would argue it is a two way street.

    That would be an ideal society but critical thinking and faith don't mix by the very definition of the word. It requires you believe despite lack of evidence and discourages change.

    Hi, I was reading the bit where it was said that Richard Dawkins was not a fundamentalist (atheist) because for one he was not forbidding Christians to have children, as Chrisians do other people. And yet he publickly (TV doco) claimed that raising children with a Christian world view is abuse. Doesn't that mean he does not think that Christians should be permitted to have, or raise, children? I met some atheists on the street recently. They happily watched Christians arrested. Would they have wanted someone to stand for their freedom of speach if they where the ones being arrested? I have tried to live faithfull to my belief in Jesus Christ and alow those around me the same freedom. I discuss with and try to 'convert' atheists as they do me, and still leave on friendly terms. This is increasingly difficult as atheists are increasingly as 'fundamentalist'minded as anyone else I meet. It is only a matter of time before atheism will imprison Christians, as they already do in atheist countries. For what its worth, they do not believe in free speech. I do. They believe in persecution. I do not. They are guilty of hate crimes and discrimination. God help us if atheism become free to do to the free world what they have done in Old USSR.
    Love in Christ, Bro Bobby.

    Bro Bobby, I wonder what you mean by atheists happily watching Christians being arrested. Your implication seems clear, but the actual facts are entirely opaque.

    As for Dawkins, he never once, that I know of, advocated legislating anything like preventing Christians from having or raising children. Courts, meanwhile, routinely consider religious households superior to nonreligious ones, so in that respect, it seems like the opposite is happening.In fact, I have never seen or heard of any atheists who tried to disenfranchise Christians in the US in any way. I have never heard of atheists who hope to bar or censor religious speech, only remove it from government and government-sponsored programs, because the establishment of religion by the state is prohibited under the U.S. Constitution.

    And you mention "atheist" countries: I would tell you that today, religious fundamentalist regimes are worse oppressors than any existing communist one. But that is entirely beside the point. American atheists are almost invariably advocates for liberty, while those who would legislate their beliefs and moralities are usually Christian. You, my friend, seem to have it exactly backwards.

    And theistscientist, I remind you that religious oppression of their opponents started before atheism even existed, and atheists have been demonized (literally) for hundreds of years. And I put to you that the government and Hollywood are vastly different things. The First Amendment should guarantee that the Bible is not taught to public school children (prayer is allowed, I remind you, just not if it's led by faculty or school employees), and that the government should be neutral on the matter of religion (which it was definitely not before the 20th Century, and still isn't to a significant degree). Unless you're advocating censorship of Hollywood, I suggest that it can coexist in the market with mega-churches and evangelical literature.

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