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	<title>Comments on: Inducing Superstition</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 15:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: misanthropope</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-36465</link>
		<dc:creator>misanthropope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 04:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-36465</guid>
		<description>by and large, during most of the period of human evolution, failing to observe an actual pattern was considerably riskier than imputing a pattern where none existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>by and large, during most of the period of human evolution, failing to observe an actual pattern was considerably riskier than imputing a pattern where none existed.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikko</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-26133</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-26133</guid>
		<description>The result of the japanese experiment may not be the effect of "superstition", but "avoiding mistakes". The most simple example is that of asking someone to continue the set 2,4,6,8,... and then deduce the rule behind that set. Most people would answer the continuation to be 10, 12, 14,... and so on, and the rule be the even numbers or increments of 2. Now the trick-answer is that the rule is: "The next number must be greater than the previous", allowing almost any continuation. Most people wish to stick to the "obvious" rule in order to avoid mistakes. Of course the correct strategy to find the rule would be to make deliberate mistakes to find the "limits" of the rule (a bit like the Mastermind-game). But that´s just not what we like to do, is it?

So those poor test subjects tried to do their best (and yes, I think they were led to think, though not explicitly, that the levers had, or should have had effect on the result), in order not to be embarrassed and lose face.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The result of the japanese experiment may not be the effect of "superstition", but "avoiding mistakes". The most simple example is that of asking someone to continue the set 2,4,6,8,... and then deduce the rule behind that set. Most people would answer the continuation to be 10, 12, 14,... and so on, and the rule be the even numbers or increments of 2. Now the trick-answer is that the rule is: "The next number must be greater than the previous", allowing almost any continuation. Most people wish to stick to the "obvious" rule in order to avoid mistakes. Of course the correct strategy to find the rule would be to make deliberate mistakes to find the "limits" of the rule (a bit like the Mastermind-game). But that´s just not what we like to do, is it?</p>
<p>So those poor test subjects tried to do their best (and yes, I think they were led to think, though not explicitly, that the levers had, or should have had effect on the result), in order not to be embarrassed and lose face.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24097</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 19:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24097</guid>
		<description>Very nice post.  As for Lynet's thoughts:

&lt;blockquote&gt;My own hypothesis would be that pattern-recognition is a fundamental part of how the brain works, not just in terms of how we gain conscious knowledge about the world, but actually in how we learn all sorts of things. Riding a bicycle (or walking!) involves finding and getting used to the right pattern of movements. I suspect the early stages of learning to talk have a lot to do with children learning that they get particular reactions when they repeat particular sounds (Mumumumumum… is sure to get a reaction whether the baby knows it refers to his/her mother or not). I'd guess that pattern recognition is built into us at a far deeper level than the one on which we do scientific induction. Mind you, I don't to what extent that hypothesis has been tested.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Everything I have studied about the brain (keeping in mind that I am not a full-fledged neuroscientist) points to this kind of situation.  If you're interested in reading more, &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Mountcastle" rel="nofollow"&gt;Vernon Mountcastle&lt;/a&gt; proposed a common modular architecture throughout the human cortex in 1978.  More recently, based on Mountacstle's idea, Jeff Hawkins postulated a memory-predicition theory about how all parts of our cortex basically store spatio-temporal patterns and use these stored associations to predict what will happen next in any given situation.  Our larger cortex essentially allows us humans to store much more abstract and complicated patterns (ie: language, culture, scientific reasoning, religion etc) than other animals.  I highly recommend reading Hawkins' book &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Jeff-Hawkins/dp/0805078533/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9644851-2551312?ie=UTF8&#38;s=books&#38;qid=1179861306&#38;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow"&gt;On Intelligence&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice post.  As for Lynet's thoughts:</p>
<blockquote><p>My own hypothesis would be that pattern-recognition is a fundamental part of how the brain works, not just in terms of how we gain conscious knowledge about the world, but actually in how we learn all sorts of things. Riding a bicycle (or walking!) involves finding and getting used to the right pattern of movements. I suspect the early stages of learning to talk have a lot to do with children learning that they get particular reactions when they repeat particular sounds (Mumumumumum… is sure to get a reaction whether the baby knows it refers to his/her mother or not). I'd guess that pattern recognition is built into us at a far deeper level than the one on which we do scientific induction. Mind you, I don't to what extent that hypothesis has been tested.</p></blockquote>
<p>Everything I have studied about the brain (keeping in mind that I am not a full-fledged neuroscientist) points to this kind of situation.  If you're interested in reading more, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Mountcastle" rel="nofollow">Vernon Mountcastle</a> proposed a common modular architecture throughout the human cortex in 1978.  More recently, based on Mountacstle's idea, Jeff Hawkins postulated a memory-predicition theory about how all parts of our cortex basically store spatio-temporal patterns and use these stored associations to predict what will happen next in any given situation.  Our larger cortex essentially allows us humans to store much more abstract and complicated patterns (ie: language, culture, scientific reasoning, religion etc) than other animals.  I highly recommend reading Hawkins' book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Jeff-Hawkins/dp/0805078533/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9644851-2551312?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1179861306&amp;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">On Intelligence</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Polly</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24068</link>
		<dc:creator>Polly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 17:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24068</guid>
		<description>Loved this post! suggested alt title: &lt;i&gt;PRAYING PIGEONS&lt;/i&gt;! I hold no superstitions...other than a belief in my own rationality.

At work, when I first took over my current position from a co-worker whose intellect I greatly admired, I found irregularities that some would have called "mistakes." He's no longer around to ask. I steadfastly stuck to a presumption that anything odd probably had a sound, logical basis. (This guy was very invested in his work) In the face of evidence to the contrary I trusted his work and tried to figure out what it was he was tying to accomplish. In the end, I changed the way things are done because it was simply wrong.
When you start out presuming there's order, you end up looking for explanations, any explanations and, by golly, you WILL find them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loved this post! suggested alt title: <i>PRAYING PIGEONS</i>! I hold no superstitions...other than a belief in my own rationality.</p>
<p>At work, when I first took over my current position from a co-worker whose intellect I greatly admired, I found irregularities that some would have called "mistakes." He's no longer around to ask. I steadfastly stuck to a presumption that anything odd probably had a sound, logical basis. (This guy was very invested in his work) In the face of evidence to the contrary I trusted his work and tried to figure out what it was he was tying to accomplish. In the end, I changed the way things are done because it was simply wrong.<br />
When you start out presuming there's order, you end up looking for explanations, any explanations and, by golly, you WILL find them.</p>
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		<title>By: AJS</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24063</link>
		<dc:creator>AJS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 14:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24063</guid>
		<description>This is interesting.

I'm guessing it probably worked well for our prehistoric ancestors.  "Good superstitions"  (which resulted in a survival advantage and may have contained a grain of truth; the two are not necessarily correlated)  would be reinforced by natural selection and, over the years, as knowledge advanced, refined until eventually a rational explanation emerged.  "Bad superstitions"  (which resulted in a survival disadvantage)  would be rapidly selected against, and so would perish along with their believers.

What has changed is that it's a lot harder for us today to get killed accidentally than it would have been for our cave-man ancestors.  "Indifferent superstitions"  (which would not affect your survival chances one way or the other whether you believed and acted upon them or not)  are no longer selected against, and have a chance to thrive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is interesting.</p>
<p>I'm guessing it probably worked well for our prehistoric ancestors.  "Good superstitions"  (which resulted in a survival advantage and may have contained a grain of truth; the two are not necessarily correlated)  would be reinforced by natural selection and, over the years, as knowledge advanced, refined until eventually a rational explanation emerged.  "Bad superstitions"  (which resulted in a survival disadvantage)  would be rapidly selected against, and so would perish along with their believers.</p>
<p>What has changed is that it's a lot harder for us today to get killed accidentally than it would have been for our cave-man ancestors.  "Indifferent superstitions"  (which would not affect your survival chances one way or the other whether you believed and acted upon them or not)  are no longer selected against, and have a chance to thrive.</p>
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		<title>By: NM</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24060</link>
		<dc:creator>NM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 12:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24060</guid>
		<description>What an excellent post! Except that I think I am now more alarmed; how on earth does one even confront a superstition that is so widely shared and so deeply embedded that it has immunised itself from challenge?  I should add that of course the superstition has a chance, however infinitesimal, of being true.  

There seems to be a sort of breakdown even in the possibility of a bridgehead lexical understanding between atheists and the religious (which disturbs me because they are big and strong and rich and bullies. so there.) We can't agree on a common conceptualisation/provenance/domain of any of the following words really, as far as I can see: fact, evidence, theory, cause, logic, argument, proof, fallacy, contradiction, existence, matter, religion, morals, history, meaning, people, superstition, rationality and probability, just off the top of my head.  It's like two perfect strangers who speak different languages trying to communicate over a bad land line through a defunct exchange. 

So here's my question: shall we all just run screaming from the building? I can see how dialogue, discussion and debate would be important for atheists who have been feeling isolated, or agnostics who aren't sure, or even the doubting religious. However, I just don't see the point in carrying out any further conversation with committed believers, and I find that deeply shocking somehow. It's impenetrable.

How do people get to a post-superstition stage? I was trying to remember things I was superstitious about, and I couldn't (probably proving that I have so many superstitions that I can't keep them straight.) How does one communicate across gaps of surrealism?  Sorry for the rambling on, but I just cannot get a handle on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an excellent post! Except that I think I am now more alarmed; how on earth does one even confront a superstition that is so widely shared and so deeply embedded that it has immunised itself from challenge?  I should add that of course the superstition has a chance, however infinitesimal, of being true.  </p>
<p>There seems to be a sort of breakdown even in the possibility of a bridgehead lexical understanding between atheists and the religious (which disturbs me because they are big and strong and rich and bullies. so there.) We can't agree on a common conceptualisation/provenance/domain of any of the following words really, as far as I can see: fact, evidence, theory, cause, logic, argument, proof, fallacy, contradiction, existence, matter, religion, morals, history, meaning, people, superstition, rationality and probability, just off the top of my head.  It's like two perfect strangers who speak different languages trying to communicate over a bad land line through a defunct exchange. </p>
<p>So here's my question: shall we all just run screaming from the building? I can see how dialogue, discussion and debate would be important for atheists who have been feeling isolated, or agnostics who aren't sure, or even the doubting religious. However, I just don't see the point in carrying out any further conversation with committed believers, and I find that deeply shocking somehow. It's impenetrable.</p>
<p>How do people get to a post-superstition stage? I was trying to remember things I was superstitious about, and I couldn't (probably proving that I have so many superstitions that I can't keep them straight.) How does one communicate across gaps of surrealism?  Sorry for the rambling on, but I just cannot get a handle on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24059</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 10:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24059</guid>
		<description>Let me tell you about something my youngest sister did when she was two or three weeks old.

We hung up this mobile above her changing table.  After a while she seemed to have noticed that she could make the mobile move.  She was repeating a pattern of behaviour that went like this:
1.  Kick legs for a while
2.  Pause
3.  Wave arms
Upon the arm-waving stage, her hand would usually hit the mobile at some point and it would move.

Eventually I think she must have figured out that the first two stages were unnecessary.  Still, I think this tells you something.  My own hypothesis would be that pattern-recognition is a fundamental part of how the brain works, not just in terms of how we gain conscious knowledge about the world, but actually in how we learn all sorts of things.  Riding a bicycle (or walking!) involves finding and getting used to the right pattern of movements.  I suspect the early stages of learning to talk have a lot to do with children learning that they get particular reactions when they repeat particular sounds (Mumumumumum... is sure to get a reaction whether the baby knows it refers to his/her mother or not).  I'd guess that pattern recognition is built into us at a far deeper level than the one on which we do scientific induction.  Mind you, I don't to what extent that hypothesis has been tested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me tell you about something my youngest sister did when she was two or three weeks old.</p>
<p>We hung up this mobile above her changing table.  After a while she seemed to have noticed that she could make the mobile move.  She was repeating a pattern of behaviour that went like this:<br />
1.  Kick legs for a while<br />
2.  Pause<br />
3.  Wave arms<br />
Upon the arm-waving stage, her hand would usually hit the mobile at some point and it would move.</p>
<p>Eventually I think she must have figured out that the first two stages were unnecessary.  Still, I think this tells you something.  My own hypothesis would be that pattern-recognition is a fundamental part of how the brain works, not just in terms of how we gain conscious knowledge about the world, but actually in how we learn all sorts of things.  Riding a bicycle (or walking!) involves finding and getting used to the right pattern of movements.  I suspect the early stages of learning to talk have a lot to do with children learning that they get particular reactions when they repeat particular sounds (Mumumumumum... is sure to get a reaction whether the baby knows it refers to his/her mother or not).  I'd guess that pattern recognition is built into us at a far deeper level than the one on which we do scientific induction.  Mind you, I don't to what extent that hypothesis has been tested.</p>
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		<title>By: The Vicar</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24055</link>
		<dc:creator>The Vicar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 01:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24055</guid>
		<description>You're probably right, but for purposes of intellectual honesty, that assertion has to be labelled "untested hypothesis" and we have to keep that in mind. After all, it's possible (unlikely, but possible) that humans do not have this assumption built in, that it is culturally induced, and that it appeared through a fluke (or via divine/alien/other unlikely being intervention). Yes, I'm nitpicking, and I know it.

I'm not even sure how you could go about testing the idea, without hitting an ethical wall. Children raised by other humans (parents or otherwise) would learn the expectation from their parents -- there's no way around it, really; proper childcare involves reacting to what the children do -- and you can't leave a bunch of babies alone to see what happens when they grow up, because they wouldn't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You're probably right, but for purposes of intellectual honesty, that assertion has to be labelled "untested hypothesis" and we have to keep that in mind. After all, it's possible (unlikely, but possible) that humans do not have this assumption built in, that it is culturally induced, and that it appeared through a fluke (or via divine/alien/other unlikely being intervention). Yes, I'm nitpicking, and I know it.</p>
<p>I'm not even sure how you could go about testing the idea, without hitting an ethical wall. Children raised by other humans (parents or otherwise) would learn the expectation from their parents -- there's no way around it, really; proper childcare involves reacting to what the children do -- and you can't leave a bunch of babies alone to see what happens when they grow up, because they wouldn't.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24052</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 22:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24052</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...the subjects were led to believe that relationships existed between their actions and the number of points scored, while presumably humans didn't start off believing that about the universe.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don't necessarily agree. Yes, no one &lt;i&gt;told&lt;/i&gt; early humans that they could control the workings of the cosmos through their actions, but I'd argue that humans instinctively believe this; it doesn't have to be taught. If a primitive group of people performed some action and noticed that a good result happened soon afterward, it's a natural tendency to think that the two are somehow connected. If they repeated the behavior and, by chance, the good result repeated also, this association would only be reinforced. 

And once a superstition of this kind gets going, people can be amazingly resilient in overlooking or explaining away the times when it didn't work. ("The rain dance &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; have worked, if only I had taken one more step to the left!!")</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>...the subjects were led to believe that relationships existed between their actions and the number of points scored, while presumably humans didn't start off believing that about the universe.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't necessarily agree. Yes, no one <i>told</i> early humans that they could control the workings of the cosmos through their actions, but I'd argue that humans instinctively believe this; it doesn't have to be taught. If a primitive group of people performed some action and noticed that a good result happened soon afterward, it's a natural tendency to think that the two are somehow connected. If they repeated the behavior and, by chance, the good result repeated also, this association would only be reinforced. </p>
<p>And once a superstition of this kind gets going, people can be amazingly resilient in overlooking or explaining away the times when it didn't work. ("The rain dance <i>would</i> have worked, if only I had taken one more step to the left!!")</p>
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		<title>By: tobe38</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24050</link>
		<dc:creator>tobe38</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 21:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/inducing-superstition.html#comment-24050</guid>
		<description>@ Alex,

Last comment off topic (promise!), but that's encouraging to hear (that you like football, not that the networks won't broadcast it). If you want to discuss "footy", there's an email address on my blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Alex,</p>
<p>Last comment off topic (promise!), but that's encouraging to hear (that you like football, not that the networks won't broadcast it). If you want to discuss "footy", there's an email address on my blog.</p>
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