Comments on: The Veil Is Dehumanizing http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:05:07 +0000 By: Ta Da http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25721 Ta Da Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:39:58 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25721 There isn't a very simple solution, and it's naive to think so, I would love to hear how "simple" your solution is. The mass media stereotypes and characterizes muslims on a mass scale, and ontop of that, Muslims don't have any real say in what the media spews out onto its' viewers. Asking muslims to stop these extremists is like telling North American cultures to abolish all people with racist, or sexist mind frames, it isn't that simple to try to single out people and get them to change, don't look at things in hypothetical situations, look at it realistically. There isn't a very simple solution, and it's naive to think so, I would love to hear how "simple" your solution is. The mass media stereotypes and characterizes muslims on a mass scale, and ontop of that, Muslims don't have any real say in what the media spews out onto its' viewers. Asking muslims to stop these extremists is like telling North American cultures to abolish all people with racist, or sexist
mind frames, it isn't that simple to try to single out people and get them to change, don't look at things in hypothetical situations, look at it realistically.

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25707 Alex Weaver Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:12:17 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25707 <blockquote>The majority of conciously aware muslims understand that Hijab is an optional accessory that is left to the decision of the woman herself, and to force it upon her is cruel. So try not to direct your attention on extremists, or hard headed religious followers who are focused on archaic habits or else you are going to get stuck seeing one side of the issue.</blockquote> If your characterization of "the majority of consciously aware Muslims" is accurate, what you're basically asking us to do is spray the entire street with water instead of the building that's actually on fire. And if Muslims in general object to being lumped in with the "extremists" because so far they haven't done anything effective to curb the damage said extremists do, there's a VERY simple solution.

The majority of conciously aware muslims understand that Hijab is an optional accessory that is left to the decision of the woman herself, and to force it upon her is cruel. So try not to direct your attention on extremists, or hard headed religious followers who are focused on archaic habits or else you are going to get stuck seeing one side of the issue.

If your characterization of "the majority of consciously aware Muslims" is accurate, what you're basically asking us to do is spray the entire street with water instead of the building that's actually on fire. And if Muslims in general object to being lumped in with the "extremists" because so far they haven't done anything effective to curb the damage said extremists do, there's a VERY simple solution.

]]> By: Ta Da! http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25703 Ta Da! Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:34:21 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25703 The evidence is that it is NOT written in the Qu'ran, and there no where in the religion that specifically tells women to wear the Hijab. The reason why so many muslims think that women HAVE to wear Hijab is due to the fact that they are following something called a Hadith, and not the Qu'ran itself. The Hadith was written after the Qu'ran, and is simply a collection of scholars trying to interpret the Qu'ran, however, people mistaken this as the actual religion and follow. Hijab mainly stems from a cultural agenda that has been practiced for such an extensive period of time, that people ignorantly accept it without any true reasoning on why. It isn't the Islamic religion itself that punishes women, it's the blind followers who impose what they think is "religion", onto their children, which soon becomes a habit that is passed down through generations. The majority of conciously aware muslims understand that Hijab is an optional accessory that is left to the decision of the woman herself, and to force it upon her is cruel. So try not to direct your attention on extremists, or hard headed religious followers who are focused on archaic habits or else you are going to get stuck seeing one side of the issue. The evidence is that it is NOT written in the Qu'ran, and there no where in the religion that specifically tells women to wear the Hijab. The reason why so many muslims think that women HAVE to wear Hijab is due to the fact that they are following something called a Hadith, and not the Qu'ran itself. The Hadith was written after the Qu'ran, and is simply a collection of scholars trying to interpret the Qu'ran, however, people mistaken this as the actual religion and follow. Hijab mainly stems from a cultural agenda that has been practiced for such an extensive period of time, that people ignorantly accept it without any true reasoning on why. It isn't the Islamic religion itself that punishes women, it's the blind followers who impose what they think is "religion", onto their children, which soon becomes a habit that is passed down through generations.

The majority of conciously aware muslims understand that Hijab is an optional accessory that is left to the decision of the woman herself, and to force it upon her is cruel. So try not to direct your attention on extremists, or hard headed religious followers who are focused on archaic habits or else you are going to get stuck seeing one side of the issue.

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25295 Alex Weaver Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:17:54 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25295 Care to back that assertion up with some evidence to counter what's been provided to the contrary? Care to back that assertion up with some evidence to counter what's been provided to the contrary?

]]> By: jen http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25292 jen Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:45:11 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-25292 Just a quick note... women are NOT required to veil in islam. If you hear of a woman being made to do something, it is her misguided husband and NOT islam that is making her. Just a quick note... women are NOT required to veil in islam. If you hear of a woman being made to do something, it is her misguided husband and NOT islam that is making her.

]]> By: Tommykey http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24789 Tommykey Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:19:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24789 What is really damaging about these strict dress codes and the ban on contact between men and women is that they make it virtually impossible for women to participate meaningfully in the workforce or in civil society. Simple acts of friendship, like when that female Pakistani tourism minister hugged her European skydiving coach after a jump, become twisted into something scandalous and indecent. I blogged about this last month, inspired by that t-shirt design I saw which features two niqab wearing women and a caption that reads "Thank you for not provoking my uncontrollable lust." What is really damaging about these strict dress codes and the ban on contact between men and women is that they make it virtually impossible for women to participate meaningfully in the workforce or in civil society. Simple acts of friendship, like when that female Pakistani tourism minister hugged her European skydiving coach after a jump, become twisted into something scandalous and indecent. I blogged about this last month, inspired by that t-shirt design I saw which features two niqab wearing women and a caption that reads "Thank you for not provoking my uncontrollable lust."

]]> By: Richard Rosalion http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24763 Richard Rosalion Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:42:48 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24763 <b>Alex</b> - I certainly agree that it's possible there is no real choice, but this post suggests that even if they DO have a choice (assuming, therefore, that that is a possibility) that it's still just as bad. I've hopefully explained myself a little better on the <a href="http://20gramsoul.com/2007/06/14/response-to-the-veil-is-dehumanizing/" rel="nofollow">blog post </a> I linked to earlier. Alex - I certainly agree that it's possible there is no real choice, but this post suggests that even if they DO have a choice (assuming, therefore, that that is a possibility) that it's still just as bad.

I've hopefully explained myself a little better on the blog post I linked to earlier.

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24761 Alex Weaver Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:21:16 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24761 <blockquote>This is a really difficult one for me, while I agree with most of what you've said, I think taking it to the point where any veil is dehumanising "even if the woman freely chooses them for herself" might be taking things a little far.</blockquote> There's nothing illogical about a person choosing to be "dehumanized", and the choice wouldn't necessarily influence the outcome. However, I suspect this was put in mainly to counter arguments in defense of veiling that women are "choosing" to wear them, conveniently ignoring a degree of culture pressure and prejudice, and doctrinal anxiety, that arguably makes the choice, even if it is one, rather less than free.

This is a really difficult one for me, while I agree with most of what you've said, I think taking it to the point where any veil is dehumanising "even if the woman freely chooses them for herself" might be taking things a little far.

There's nothing illogical about a person choosing to be "dehumanized", and the choice wouldn't necessarily influence the outcome. However, I suspect this was put in mainly to counter arguments in defense of veiling that women are "choosing" to wear them, conveniently ignoring a degree of culture pressure and prejudice, and doctrinal anxiety, that arguably makes the choice, even if it is one, rather less than free.

]]> By: CJ http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24758 CJ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:33:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24758 Just out of curiosity, to all the above posters who wrote about the nude beaches, I was wondering what you think the Bible's stance on the subject is? The Eden story seems to give way to two very different conclusions on the matter, 1) Adam and Eve were naked and "not ashamed" before there was any sin, so therefore "God" did not intend them to cover up, or 2) Adam and Eve covered up when they had "knowledge of good and evil," thereby implying that their being naked was evil. Which school of thought do you subscribe to? (I ask this both to the above posters and Adam, who might want to cover this in a future "Morality of" post. For the record, I am an atheist.) Just out of curiosity, to all the above posters who wrote about the nude beaches, I was wondering what you think the Bible's stance on the subject is? The Eden story seems to give way to two very different conclusions on the matter, 1) Adam and Eve were naked and "not ashamed" before there was any sin, so therefore "God" did not intend them to cover up, or 2) Adam and Eve covered up when they had "knowledge of good and evil," thereby implying that their being naked was evil. Which school of thought do you subscribe to? (I ask this both to the above posters and Adam, who might want to cover this in a future "Morality of" post. For the record, I am an atheist.)

]]> By: Antigone http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24755 Antigone Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:08:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/the-veil-is-dehumanizing.html#comment-24755 I suppose if a woman can freely "choose" the hijab kinda goes into the nature of choice. If I didn't get any social benefit from it, I wouldn't choose to wear makeup and a whole slew of other clothing I wear for reasons. In this case, it is not only religion, but society, that are impressing their views onto women and men. Also, wearing scarfs et all probably had very good initial reasons: sand coming up and getting into your hair, hurting your skin et cetera. It is just an example of our culture not being as fast as our evolution. I suppose if a woman can freely "choose" the hijab kinda goes into the nature of choice. If I didn't get any social benefit from it, I wouldn't choose to wear makeup and a whole slew of other clothing I wear for reasons. In this case, it is not only religion, but society, that are impressing their views onto women and men.

Also, wearing scarfs et all probably had very good initial reasons: sand coming up and getting into your hair, hurting your skin et cetera. It is just an example of our culture not being as fast as our evolution.

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