Comments on: An Incident in the Senate http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:17:23 +0000 By: The Ridger http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25520 The Ridger Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:11:04 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25520 Plus - despite the words of Jesus about praying in public (rather, not doing so) - for most Christians the notion that someone <i>might not be praying</i> when they are is, apparently, horrible. Hence the shaming practice of sending students into the hall if they don't want to participate. The moment of silence is the last thing they accept - and only if they're forced to. The office of the chaplain has been in existence from the beginning:<blockquote>Throughout the years, the United States Senate has honored the historic separation of Church and State, but not the separation of God and State. The first Senate, meeting in New York City on April 25, 1789, elected the Right Reverend Samuel Provost, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, as its first Chaplain. During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate. The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian. <a href="http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm" rel="nofollow">source: senate.gov</a>)</blockquote>Apparently, "nonsectarian" is to be interpreted as "some form of 'mere Christianity'" (to cite CS Lewis) but definitely Christian! This despite the clear intention of the Founders - to your quotes I'll add this one from Jefferson:<blockquote>[A]n amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ,"€™ so that [the preamble] should read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion"; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. </blockquote>See - he even mentions Hindus! Plus - despite the words of Jesus about praying in public (rather, not doing so) - for most Christians the notion that someone might not be praying when they are is, apparently, horrible. Hence the shaming practice of sending students into the hall if they don't want to participate. The moment of silence is the last thing they accept - and only if they're forced to.

The office of the chaplain has been in existence from the beginning:

Throughout the years, the United States Senate has honored the historic separation of Church and State, but not the separation of God and State. The first Senate, meeting in New York City on April 25, 1789, elected the Right Reverend Samuel Provost, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, as its first Chaplain. During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate. The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian. source: senate.gov)

Apparently, "nonsectarian" is to be interpreted as "some form of 'mere Christianity'" (to cite CS Lewis) but definitely Christian! This despite the clear intention of the Founders - to your quotes I'll add this one from Jefferson:

[A]n amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ,"€™ so that [the preamble] should read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion"; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

See - he even mentions Hindus!

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25518 OMGF Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:51:17 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25518 <a href="http://www.pandachute.com/videos/extremists_disrupt_hindu_senate" rel="nofollow">The video</a> I found a video of the happenings. The video

I found a video of the happenings.

]]> By: Todd Sayre http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25515 Todd Sayre Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:15:09 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25515 <blockquote>a moment of silence for members to reflect or pray as they deem appropriate</blockquote> That wouldn't work. The two most important rules in Christian prayer seem to be: 1. The prayer is said aloud. 2. Everybody says the same prayer together. Maybe the Christian god is hard of hearing and you need so many voices shouting to get its attention? Maybe the Christian god only picks out a certain number of prayers to answer every day and you need to buy more tickets in the "prayer lottery" to increase your chance of winning? I've been observing them for two decades now and I'm still have no idea. I think most Christians would prefer a single vague and ecumenical prayer said aloud over allowing every person to make up their own minds about whether or not to pray and to whom and for what.

a moment of silence for members to reflect or pray as they deem appropriate

That wouldn't work. The two most important rules in Christian prayer seem to be:
1. The prayer is said aloud.
2. Everybody says the same prayer together.

Maybe the Christian god is hard of hearing and you need so many voices shouting to get its attention? Maybe the Christian god only picks out a certain number of prayers to answer every day and you need to buy more tickets in the "prayer lottery" to increase your chance of winning? I've been observing them for two decades now and I'm still have no idea.

I think most Christians would prefer a single vague and ecumenical prayer said aloud over allowing every person to make up their own minds about whether or not to pray and to whom and for what.

]]> By: John P http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25513 John P Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:27:09 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25513 Why can't they simply open each session with a statement to the effect: "We will now observe a moment of silence for members to reflect or pray as they deem appropriate". Wouldn't that be enough? It satisfies everyone other than those who insist on conspicuous legitimation of their beliefs. Why can't they simply open each session with a statement to the effect:

"We will now observe a moment of silence for members to reflect or pray as they deem appropriate".

Wouldn't that be enough? It satisfies everyone other than those who insist on conspicuous legitimation of their beliefs.

]]> By: BlackSun http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25512 BlackSun Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:51:11 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25512 Hear, hear, Ebonmuse. That circus in the Senate was a national disgrace. I'm totally with you. If there's going to be any prayer, it seems only constitutional that it be rotated equally among religious and non-religious so that the Senate doesn't give the appearance of "...respecting an establishment of religion" Hear, hear, Ebonmuse. That circus in the Senate was a national disgrace. I'm totally with you. If there's going to be any prayer, it seems only constitutional that it be rotated equally among religious and non-religious so that the Senate doesn't give the appearance of "...respecting an establishment of religion"

]]> By: Alex, FCD http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25511 Alex, FCD Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:34:57 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25511 <blockquote>Why does the U.S. Senate open with a prayer? What the heck happened to "Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion?"</blockquote>If I had to guess, I would say that there is no law that says the Senate has to open with a prayer, but they do it out of tradition.

Why does the U.S. Senate open with a prayer?

What the heck happened to "Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion?"

If I had to guess, I would say that there is no law that says the Senate has to open with a prayer, but they do it out of tradition.

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25509 Polly Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:17:02 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25509 <blockquote>...Atheism section at a Borders bookstore, and prominently at the front of the Religion section, not hidden away in some corner</blockquote> I saw it for the first time last weekend when I made one of my frequent trips to Borders. I was really surprised...and gratified! I thought it was unusually daring of them. I took a few minutes to peruse "God is not Great". (I was there to window shop) It really is a testament to the cultural inroads big-name atheists are making, here in the US. One person in a Starbucks who was reading "Letter to a Christian Nation" told me that he hoped it would spark some conversation. This is in a suburban city with church<i>es</i> on every block. These kinds of books are taking atheism out of the "nerdy"/science arena and into mainstream culture. So, for all the criticism Dawkins and others get, it seems to be working. Looking forward to seeing your book out there too, Adam.

...Atheism section at a Borders bookstore, and prominently at the front of the Religion section, not hidden away in some corner

I saw it for the first time last weekend when I made one of my frequent trips to Borders. I was really surprised...and gratified! I thought it was unusually daring of them. I took a few minutes to peruse "God is not Great". (I was there to window shop)
It really is a testament to the cultural inroads big-name atheists are making, here in the US.
One person in a Starbucks who was reading "Letter to a Christian Nation" told me that he hoped it would spark some conversation. This is in a suburban city with churches on every block. These kinds of books are taking atheism out of the "nerdy"/science arena and into mainstream culture. So, for all the criticism Dawkins and others get, it seems to be working.
Looking forward to seeing your book out there too, Adam.

]]> By: Darren http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25507 Darren Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:13:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25507 Well written, as ever. As a non-US citizen, I do think that America is a great nation, yet suffering from a debilitating disease known as Pervasive Religion. However, I was greatly pleased to see signs of recovery yesterday, in the form of an Atheism section at a Borders bookstore, and prominently at the front of the Religion section, not hidden away in some corner. Keep up the good work, and continue to show that there is an alternative. Perhaps one day your own book will grace that small section...? Well written, as ever. As a non-US citizen, I do think that America is a great nation, yet suffering from a debilitating disease known as Pervasive Religion. However, I was greatly pleased to see signs of recovery yesterday, in the form of an Atheism section at a Borders bookstore, and prominently at the front of the Religion section, not hidden away in some corner. Keep up the good work, and continue to show that there is an alternative. Perhaps one day your own book will grace that small section...?

]]> By: vjack http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25506 vjack Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:07:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25506 But why have any prayer at all? Isn't that the real question we should all be asking? But why have any prayer at all? Isn't that the real question we should all be asking?

]]> By: Todd Sayre http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25503 Todd Sayre Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:59:30 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/07/an-incident-in-the-senate.html#comment-25503 <blockquote>"Operation Save America" also claimed that this invocation "would never have been allowed by our Founding Fathers".</blockquote> I don't think "our Founding Fathers" would have allowed a woman or a black man to deliver an invocation either. I, for one, am glad we don't continue the prejudices of our ancestors.

"Operation Save America" also claimed that this invocation "would never have been allowed by our Founding Fathers".

I don't think "our Founding Fathers" would have allowed a woman or a black man to deliver an invocation either. I, for one, am glad we don't continue the prejudices of our ancestors.

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