10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.

10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

This is before the Babel tale.

I'm a long-time lurker and just wanted to say thank you for what you are doing. It means a lot. I don't say much, because agreement is dull.:-)

@Joseph Kim (who I doubt will have the courage or honesty to reply, like most evangelists):

I am a lesbian. I have one friend who was beaten and hospitalized by a gang of Christian youths, and one friend who was driven to suicide by her Christian family.

If I saw a group of burly men coming out of a Bible study group, I would run like hell.

Any comments?

It is not currently possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the ancient stories of the Bible. However, it is interesting to note that to date, the archaeological spade has uncannily been in agreement with the Bible.

As is par for the course in these matters, Joseph's sweeping claim is presented without any substantiating details. Hardly surprising, because anyone who actually knows anything about archaeology knows that these starry-eyed claims are flatly contradicted by the facts. My essay "Let the Stones Speak" on Ebon Musings shows, in detail, how the claims of the Bible actually fare when compared to the evidence uncovered by archaeologists in the last several decades.

Would you be scared? Would you feel any different knowing that these men had just come from a Bible study?

Christopher Hitchens provides what I think is the decisive refutation of that silly question:

Just to stay within the letter B, I have actually had that experience in Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade, Bethlehem, and Baghdad. In each case I can say absolutely, and can give my reasons, why I would feel immediately threatened if I thought that the group of men approaching me in the dusk were coming from a religious observance.

Suppose you were walking late at night on the streets of South Los Angeles and you encountered a group of very muscular, burly looking men. Would you be scared? Would you feel any different knowing that these men had just come from a Bible study?

Yeah, this question was posed to Christopher Hitchens. His answer, sadly, was not included in the post above. I'll include it for you all:

Just to stay within the letter B, I have actually had that experience in Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade, Bethlehem, and Baghdad. In each case I can say absolutely, and can give my reasons, why I would feel immediately threatened if I thought that the group of men approaching me in the dusk were coming from a religious observance.

For starters, I don't doubt that most professed Christians are decent people, just as most professed atheists or Buddhists, or Jews or Muslims are decent people. So, of course one might feel relief that the burly men in question had just left a Bible study class. Heck, I would feel relief knowing they had just come from a poetry reading too. So what does your question prove?

Of course one would expect archeology to provide some support for the Bible. The people who wrote it, or who put into written form what had previously been passed down through oral tales, lived in the area. It doesn't even come close to proving though that a serpent spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden, that there was a Tower of Babel, or a Noah's Ark. Heck, Homer's tales of the Trojan War describe real places that have been confirmed by archeologists, but that does not warrant consideration as evidence that there was a real Achilles who was dipped as a child in the magic waters of the River Styx, or that different Greek gods really existed and took sides in the Trojan War. Greek legend also speeks of a King Minos of Crete and a half man half bull creature called a minotaur. Archeologists have found the remains of the palace at Knossos, and Cretan paintings show that the bull was a prominent motif in their art work, but no serious person would deduce from that that there was an actual minotaur.

As for the tales of prophecy, anyone can write something down and attribute it to a prediction made by a Hebrew prophet one or two centuries earlier. The Bible does not in any way contain predictions about the future. The book of Isaiah refers to the Nile River drying up, but that has not happened in recorded history.

I know you raised other points, and maybe I will return later on to address them, as my lunch break at work is almost over. As for the hygiene argument, I would not be surprised if the Israelites learned much of that from either the Egyptians or the Mesopotamians.

[off-topic proselytization removed --Ebonmuse]

In closing, I heard an interesting story that I thought was interesting. A well known atheist and Christian were debating in a public forum. Both had excellent arguments for their position, but obviously neither could "prove" their case. At the end of the debate the Christian posed the following question to the atheist. Suppose you were walking late at night on the streets of South Los Angeles and you encountered a group of very muscular, burly looking men. Would you be scared? Would you feel any different knowing that these men had just come from a Bible study? True Christianity is readily evident in the lives of people who have been transformed by the saving truths of the gospel. People who were murderers, drug addicts, adulterers, promiscuous, or who just had a tendency to use swear words, who encountered Jesus and were completely changed are the real "proof" that God is real.

You make a good point and one that I think all theists should listen to as well. (The theists I've spoken with recently seem even more reluctant to discuss other religions than atheism) Have we all really investigated all other religions properly before making a decision? They can't all be right, but they could all be wrong. What if YOU'RE wrong?

So when considering the multitude of beliefs out there I try to keep in mind that many of the big arguments against Christianity are equally effective against other religions. The problem of evil for example causes contradictions for any claims about the existence of all-powerful and all-good beings, which renders quite a few religions unlikely.

From there I would ask if there is any evidence for a particular claim. In the absence of reliable evidence I would assume the simplest situation possible, which of course is as follows: The Universe is a lump of sweetcorn in the faeces of a half-leopard half-goat creature who desires that everything in the world be yellow. Only when we have painted or dyed everything yellow will we all be able to find peace. ;)

Norbert, I disagree with you. I see a lot of recording of a culture's wisdom in the Christian bible. However, most of the people I know who call themselves "Christians" are really Paulists, and they cherry pick from Paul's list which cultural practices they or others should follow. Paul was a cultural engineer. And instead of studying what Jesus of Nazarath actually had to say, they have focused in on his death and missed his message. And, if you are right, what does that say about the president of the U.S.?

Using what has been observable with the natural senses, men have created name after name in an attempt to establish a compelling interest around which all of humanity can be united. However, when men name the interest, politics destroys equality- and and the greater part of society becomes the bearer of loads with counterfeit value created, interminably, by vain men. God wants men to be free.

Um, if uniting humanity under an interest and naming it destroys equality and violates God's wishes... Just what is it you think you Christians are trying to do, hmm?

Now, something science does not see is how we are connected to each other through the measurable brainwaves generated by each of us. Sent out through the liquid iron antenna which our cardio-vascular system is, we are transmitting and receiving to each other raw data in a language understanding of which no one holds.

1) Brainwaves do not work that way.
2) Neither do electrolyes.
3) Evidence plz, thx.

This knowledge might include every experience of every human that ever lived, that super Intelligence using our sleeping minds to store (and, in some cases, analyze) all that knowledge, don't you think God is capable of working a little "software" change in a network like that without hurting anyone?

No, for the same reason I don't think the Great Pumpkin is capable of working a little "software" change.