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	<title>Comments on: A Legal Development</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26491</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 02:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26491</guid>
		<description>It appears Pivar's suit &lt;a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/the_inevitable_has_occurred.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;has now been dropped&lt;/a&gt;. That didn't take long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It appears Pivar's suit <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/the_inevitable_has_occurred.php" rel="nofollow">has now been dropped</a>. That didn't take long.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26368</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 04:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26368</guid>
		<description>Some more posts on the case: Andrea Bottaro at &lt;a href="http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/08/so_sue_me.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Panda's Thumb&lt;/a&gt;, Timothy Sandefur at &lt;a href="http://positiveliberty.com/2007/08/pivar's-libel-suit-against-pz-myers.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Positive Liberty&lt;/a&gt;, Jim Lippard at &lt;a href="http://lippard.blogspot.com/2007/08/libel-lawsuit-against-science-blogger.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Lippard Blog&lt;/a&gt; (with a copy of the actual complaint).

The opinions I've seen are uniformly critical of Pivar, most of them strongly so. I don't know what response he was hoping for, but I doubt this is it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some more posts on the case: Andrea Bottaro at <a href="http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/08/so_sue_me.html" rel="nofollow">The Panda's Thumb</a>, Timothy Sandefur at <a href="http://positiveliberty.com/2007/08/pivar's-libel-suit-against-pz-myers.html" rel="nofollow">Positive Liberty</a>, Jim Lippard at <a href="http://lippard.blogspot.com/2007/08/libel-lawsuit-against-science-blogger.html" rel="nofollow">The Lippard Blog</a> (with a copy of the actual complaint).</p>
<p>The opinions I've seen are uniformly critical of Pivar, most of them strongly so. I don't know what response he was hoping for, but I doubt this is it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26350</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26350</guid>
		<description>Chris: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;I doubt much will come from this, though I wish there were laws that would punish the people who make frivolous lawsuits...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are: they're called &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLAPP" rel="nofollow"&gt;SLAPP laws&lt;/a&gt;. I note that New York, where this case was filed, has one.

P4limpsest:

&lt;blockquote&gt;However, I'm not sure that entirely addresses my friend's core argument–which is that a private citizen is not barred from trying to shut someone up. Does this guy cross the line by trying to bring it into the courts instead of just vociferously complaining?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes. The First Amendment protects your right to speak, but it does not require that other people provide you a forum or pay you for doing so. Organizing a boycott, or complaining to someone's sponsors, because you don't like what they have to say is entirely legitimate activity. But when you bring the &lt;i&gt;government&lt;/i&gt; into it - when you demand, through the courts, that the state itself punish someone for saying something - then that is a different matter, and one that is covered by the First Amendment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: </p>
<blockquote><p>I doubt much will come from this, though I wish there were laws that would punish the people who make frivolous lawsuits...</p></blockquote>
<p>There are: they're called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLAPP" rel="nofollow">SLAPP laws</a>. I note that New York, where this case was filed, has one.</p>
<p>P4limpsest:</p>
<blockquote><p>However, I'm not sure that entirely addresses my friend's core argument–which is that a private citizen is not barred from trying to shut someone up. Does this guy cross the line by trying to bring it into the courts instead of just vociferously complaining?</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. The First Amendment protects your right to speak, but it does not require that other people provide you a forum or pay you for doing so. Organizing a boycott, or complaining to someone's sponsors, because you don't like what they have to say is entirely legitimate activity. But when you bring the <i>government</i> into it - when you demand, through the courts, that the state itself punish someone for saying something - then that is a different matter, and one that is covered by the First Amendment.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26348</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26348</guid>
		<description>I saw this first on Bad Astronomy, which certainly counts as a science blog. Here's the link: &lt;a href="http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/08/21/pz-being-sued-by-crackpot/" rel="nofollow"&gt;www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/08/21/pz-being-sued-by-crackpot&lt;/a&gt;

I doubt much will come from this, though I wish there were laws that would punish the people who make frivolous lawsuits (other than paying the other party's legal fees, which never truly cover the costs incurred). Throwing on 100 hours of community service would probably help prevent so many stupid cases coming to court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw this first on Bad Astronomy, which certainly counts as a science blog. Here's the link: <a href="http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/08/21/pz-being-sued-by-crackpot/" rel="nofollow">http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/08/21/pz-being-sued-by-crackpot</a></p>
<p>I doubt much will come from this, though I wish there were laws that would punish the people who make frivolous lawsuits (other than paying the other party's legal fees, which never truly cover the costs incurred). Throwing on 100 hours of community service would probably help prevent so many stupid cases coming to court.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26345</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26345</guid>
		<description>Sheesh--I need to read more carefully. I thought, when responding to P4limpsest, that Pivar is the person trying to stop D.L. Hughley. I am obviously wrong. The person I identify as Pivar in my post is actually the woman who is calling for the boycotts. I'm sorry for the misunderstandings on my part. Shutting up now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheesh--I need to read more carefully. I thought, when responding to P4limpsest, that Pivar is the person trying to stop D.L. Hughley. I am obviously wrong. The person I identify as Pivar in my post is actually the woman who is calling for the boycotts. I'm sorry for the misunderstandings on my part. Shutting up now.</p>
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		<title>By: John P</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26344</link>
		<dc:creator>John P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26344</guid>
		<description>Yes, as an attorney, I'm not so sure First Amendment law is what the Myers case will turn on. It's defamation (libel and slander - one is written, the other spoken) law that he's being sued under (I don't understand the assault aspect - need more info). 

While we all have 1st Amendment rights to free speech, defamation is actually a limitation to that right. You are not allowed to say things about others that are untrue, &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; that cause actual hard damages. Both points must occur, unless you get into the area of defamation &lt;i&gt;per se&lt;/i&gt;, where if the untruth alleges a crime, immoral act, loathsome disease, etc, then you don't need actual out of pocket damages. 

Defamation is a tort, i.e. a claim for a personal injury. A good defense may be the First Amendment, especially if the Defendant is deemed a public figure, which an author might be. Under &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;NY Times v. Sullivan, &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; there must be a showing of actual malice, something that is very difficult to show.  

So, I'd say that Pivar probably has a snowball's chance in hell (assuming such a location existed) of winning the case.

However, don't forget the costs of litigation. Many rich, powerful people, (and I understand that Pivar is a wealthy businessman) often use the defamation cases to try to dampen or chill the free speech rights of people who don't have the financial wherewithal of paying for a defense. The mere threat of litigation will often cause people of modest means to back down quickly, and the chilling effect on others is often the actual intent of the litigation. It's not something to be taken lightly. 

Myers is a professor at a small college, with a family. I don't know the financial resources of Seed, but this could be seriously expensive if the litigation drags on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, as an attorney, I'm not so sure First Amendment law is what the Myers case will turn on. It's defamation (libel and slander - one is written, the other spoken) law that he's being sued under (I don't understand the assault aspect - need more info). </p>
<p>While we all have 1st Amendment rights to free speech, defamation is actually a limitation to that right. You are not allowed to say things about others that are untrue, <i>and</i> that cause actual hard damages. Both points must occur, unless you get into the area of defamation <i>per se</i>, where if the untruth alleges a crime, immoral act, loathsome disease, etc, then you don't need actual out of pocket damages. </p>
<p>Defamation is a tort, i.e. a claim for a personal injury. A good defense may be the First Amendment, especially if the Defendant is deemed a public figure, which an author might be. Under <i><b>NY Times v. Sullivan, </b></i> there must be a showing of actual malice, something that is very difficult to show.  </p>
<p>So, I'd say that Pivar probably has a snowball's chance in hell (assuming such a location existed) of winning the case.</p>
<p>However, don't forget the costs of litigation. Many rich, powerful people, (and I understand that Pivar is a wealthy businessman) often use the defamation cases to try to dampen or chill the free speech rights of people who don't have the financial wherewithal of paying for a defense. The mere threat of litigation will often cause people of modest means to back down quickly, and the chilling effect on others is often the actual intent of the litigation. It's not something to be taken lightly. </p>
<p>Myers is a professor at a small college, with a family. I don't know the financial resources of Seed, but this could be seriously expensive if the litigation drags on.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26340</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26340</guid>
		<description>My (admittedly layman's) understanding is as follows: Hughley cannot use the government to force comedy clubs to host him, and Pivar cannot use the government to force the comedy clubs to not host Hughley. He/She is fully free to call for boycotts, and the clubs are fully free to listen to or ignore him/her. Hughley is not having his free speech rights violated by not being able to say them on a stage, when the owner of the stage doesn't want him there. I.e. being a celebrity, and obtaining a majority of your income from speaking does not give you any more right to speak freely than anyone else in the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My (admittedly layman's) understanding is as follows: Hughley cannot use the government to force comedy clubs to host him, and Pivar cannot use the government to force the comedy clubs to not host Hughley. He/She is fully free to call for boycotts, and the clubs are fully free to listen to or ignore him/her. Hughley is not having his free speech rights violated by not being able to say them on a stage, when the owner of the stage doesn't want him there. I.e. being a celebrity, and obtaining a majority of your income from speaking does not give you any more right to speak freely than anyone else in the country.</p>
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		<title>By: P4limpsest</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26337</link>
		<dc:creator>P4limpsest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26337</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the 14th amendment point.  I went and read some sites about it, and although it's still apparently controversial, most legal scholars seem to agree that at least most of the Bill of Rights (including definitely the right of free speech and religion) now apply to the states.  However, I'm not sure that entirely addresses my friend's core argument--which is that a private citizen is not barred from trying to shut someone up.  Does this guy cross the line by trying to bring it into the courts instead of just vociferously complaining?  Does that make it rise to the level of a First Amendment violation?  What's confusing me is this:  although it would seem to be a violation of the amendment for the government to restrict speech, I don't see how a court could hold that a private citizen is violating it.  It seems like a weird Catch-22--if a court finds in favor of Pivar, then government force will be getting used to violate the right to free speech; but the court can't say that Pivar is violating the right to free speech in order to rule against him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the 14th amendment point.  I went and read some sites about it, and although it's still apparently controversial, most legal scholars seem to agree that at least most of the Bill of Rights (including definitely the right of free speech and religion) now apply to the states.  However, I'm not sure that entirely addresses my friend's core argument--which is that a private citizen is not barred from trying to shut someone up.  Does this guy cross the line by trying to bring it into the courts instead of just vociferously complaining?  Does that make it rise to the level of a First Amendment violation?  What's confusing me is this:  although it would seem to be a violation of the amendment for the government to restrict speech, I don't see how a court could hold that a private citizen is violating it.  It seems like a weird Catch-22--if a court finds in favor of Pivar, then government force will be getting used to violate the right to free speech; but the court can't say that Pivar is violating the right to free speech in order to rule against him.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26336</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26336</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Bechamel. You're right; I'm wrong. That's what I get for posting before completely checking the facts.

P4limpsest,

Your friend needs to realize that the 14th Amendment incorporated all the other amendments down to the states. Speech is considered one of the fundamental rights, which will be protected without any strong compelling interest to prohibit said speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Bechamel. You're right; I'm wrong. That's what I get for posting before completely checking the facts.</p>
<p>P4limpsest,</p>
<p>Your friend needs to realize that the 14th Amendment incorporated all the other amendments down to the states. Speech is considered one of the fundamental rights, which will be protected without any strong compelling interest to prohibit said speech.</p>
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		<title>By: P4limpsest</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26334</link>
		<dc:creator>P4limpsest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/a-legal-development.html#comment-26334</guid>
		<description>This is a point that is lateral to the one being discussed, but it's something I've been thinking about recently and I'd like to see some thoughts on this.

I was discussing a similar issue with a friend and he roundly criticized me for referring to First Amendment.  He pointed out that people tend to over use the First Amendment in such discussions, because all it guarantees is that Congress shall make no law prohibiting free speech.  This is more limited than the sweeping protection Ebonmuse seems to be calling on in this article.  This is also a big point in the recent controversy involving D.L. Hughley--wherein another private citizen is urging a boycott of his performances and trying to pressure comedy clubs to not allow him in.  Hughley keeps bringing up his first amendment rights, and the woman that's mad at him keeps pointing out that isn't the Congress.

Are we coming back to the issue of negative liberty vs. positive liberty that Ebonmuse brought up in an earlier libertarianism post?  Should we be advocating a more expansive form of the First Amendment that forbids other entities such as the courts and private citizens from harming freedom of speech?  Or does the current form already give us such protections and my friend is just being overly literal?  Or am I missing the point entirely?  Very possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a point that is lateral to the one being discussed, but it's something I've been thinking about recently and I'd like to see some thoughts on this.</p>
<p>I was discussing a similar issue with a friend and he roundly criticized me for referring to First Amendment.  He pointed out that people tend to over use the First Amendment in such discussions, because all it guarantees is that Congress shall make no law prohibiting free speech.  This is more limited than the sweeping protection Ebonmuse seems to be calling on in this article.  This is also a big point in the recent controversy involving D.L. Hughley--wherein another private citizen is urging a boycott of his performances and trying to pressure comedy clubs to not allow him in.  Hughley keeps bringing up his first amendment rights, and the woman that's mad at him keeps pointing out that isn't the Congress.</p>
<p>Are we coming back to the issue of negative liberty vs. positive liberty that Ebonmuse brought up in an earlier libertarianism post?  Should we be advocating a more expansive form of the First Amendment that forbids other entities such as the courts and private citizens from harming freedom of speech?  Or does the current form already give us such protections and my friend is just being overly literal?  Or am I missing the point entirely?  Very possible.</p>
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