Comments on: Atheists Meek and Mild http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:47:01 +0000 By: G Riggs http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26514 G Riggs Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:23:08 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26514 All of which sounds eminently plausible to me too. Thanks. Just to be fair, I suppose I would still want to hear from <b>Brock</b> on this as well. Cheers, G Riggs All of which sounds eminently plausible to me too. Thanks.

Just to be fair, I suppose I would still want to hear from Brock on this as well.

Cheers,

G Riggs

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26510 OMGF Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:18:17 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26510 I don't know if Stalin was an atheist or not. He was certainly irrational is some regards and simply cold and calculating in others. He was also rather immoral. Marx was an atheist and there's no reason to think he wasn't a "True Atheist." Saying that Stalin (if he was an atheist) was not a true atheist is too close to the no true Scotsman fallacy for my tastes. I don't know if Stalin was an atheist or not. He was certainly irrational is some regards and simply cold and calculating in others. He was also rather immoral.

Marx was an atheist and there's no reason to think he wasn't a "True Atheist." Saying that Stalin (if he was an atheist) was not a true atheist is too close to the no true Scotsman fallacy for my tastes.

]]> By: G Riggs http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26509 G Riggs Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:15:02 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26509 CORRECTION : [FIRST PARAGRAPH CORRECTED] Putting Stalin himself aside, is that possibly an argument against Marx being an atheist as well? Are we saying that he too is a millennialist and therefore not really an atheist? CORRECTION :

[FIRST PARAGRAPH CORRECTED] Putting Stalin himself aside, is that possibly an argument against Marx being an atheist as well? Are we saying that he too is a millennialist and therefore not really an atheist?

]]> By: G Riggs http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26508 G Riggs Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:13:27 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26508 Putting Stalin himself aside, is that possibly an argument against Marx being an atheist as well? Are we saying that he too is amillennialist and therefore not really an atheist? FWIW, I suppose I view Marx as far less threatening a figure, ethically, than Stalin. This is why (I guess) I'm somewhat more intrigued by any apparent attempt to segregate Marx from "the honored ranks of atheists". Marx strikes me as simply a (relatively) cerebral thinker separate and apart from the abuses of Stalinist Russia. And I'd guess there are any number of historians of skepticism today who are 1) comfortable with the point of view reflected on most of this board, and 2) accepting of Marx as not just an atheist but a leading atheist of his time. Wouldn't lots of atheists have to be removed from the ranks of atheists if we remove Marx? Sincerely, G Riggs Putting Stalin himself aside, is that possibly an argument against Marx being an atheist as well? Are we saying that he too is amillennialist and therefore not really an atheist?

FWIW, I suppose I view Marx as far less threatening a figure, ethically, than Stalin. This is why (I guess) I'm somewhat more intrigued by any apparent attempt to segregate Marx from "the honored ranks of atheists". Marx strikes me as simply a (relatively) cerebral thinker separate and apart from the abuses of Stalinist Russia. And I'd guess there are any number of historians of skepticism today who are

1) comfortable with the point of view reflected on most of this board, and

2) accepting of Marx as not just an atheist but a leading atheist of his time.

Wouldn't lots of atheists have to be removed from the ranks of atheists if we remove Marx?

Sincerely,

G Riggs

]]> By: Brock http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26497 Brock Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:02:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26497 A more compelling reason to deny Stalin access to the honored ranks of atheists is his commitment to the millenial belief of Communism, which shares most of the earmarks of religious belief, except of course the existence of God. Communism has its prophet(Marx), its apostles (Lenin, Mao) and its ritualistic demand on the individual to live her life in accordance with its precepts for the sake of a future life of bliss, i.e., the worker's paradise. A more compelling reason to deny Stalin access to the honored ranks of atheists is his commitment to the millenial belief of Communism, which shares most of the earmarks of religious belief, except of course the existence of God. Communism has its prophet(Marx), its apostles (Lenin, Mao) and its ritualistic demand on the individual to live her life in accordance with its precepts for the sake of a future life of bliss, i.e., the worker's paradise.

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26487 OMGF Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:56:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26487 FWIW, I'd say Stalin believed in something, and that was the subversive power that religion holds over people. Being a megalomaniac, he could not countenance sharing his power with the church, so he pragmatically (to him at least) outlawed the church and eliminated the competition. It's similar to the same reason why Saddam never got along with Al Qaeda and fundamentalist Islam. FWIW, I'd say Stalin believed in something, and that was the subversive power that religion holds over people. Being a megalomaniac, he could not countenance sharing his power with the church, so he pragmatically (to him at least) outlawed the church and eliminated the competition. It's similar to the same reason why Saddam never got along with Al Qaeda and fundamentalist Islam.

]]> By: G Riggs http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26486 G Riggs Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:48:55 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26486 So your point would still confirm that there was a coercive quality to the atheism in Stalin's Russia, regardless of Stalin's own genuine or pretended lack of belief. The initial question here was whether or not there has ever been a case in which atheist beliefs have been compelled from the general populace in the same way that theist beliefs have been frequently compelled in culture after culture. Since there is at least a possibility that even Stalin may have trembled before the atheism of mid-20th-century Russia, that would confirm, regardless of Stalin's own beliefs, that mid-20th-century Russia was unequivocally a place where atheism was compelled/coerced by the state. Clearly, mid-20th-century Russia remains a bizarre exception to the coerced theism of other historic cultures. But it is an exception that definitely existed anyway -- I suppose the exception that proves the rule. G Riggs So your point would still confirm that there was a coercive quality to the atheism in Stalin's Russia, regardless of Stalin's own genuine or pretended lack of belief. The initial question here was whether or not there has ever been a case in which atheist beliefs have been compelled from the general populace in the same way that theist beliefs have been frequently compelled in culture after culture. Since there is at least a possibility that even Stalin may have trembled before the atheism of mid-20th-century Russia, that would confirm, regardless of Stalin's own beliefs, that mid-20th-century Russia was unequivocally a place where atheism was compelled/coerced by the state. Clearly, mid-20th-century Russia remains a bizarre exception to the coerced theism of other historic cultures. But it is an exception that definitely existed anyway -- I suppose the exception that proves the rule.

G Riggs

]]> By: Thumpalumpacus http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26484 Thumpalumpacus Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:38:53 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26484 Mr Riggs -- It's not at all certain that Stlain was an atheist. According to Solzhenitsyn in Gulag archipelago (admittedly not a neutral source) Stalin was in his youth a seminary student. And while many, myself included, had a religious youth and atheist adulthood, many too have hidden their [lack of] belief in god for the sake of temporary benefit. And in a totalitarian state, which officially espoused atheism, with an efficient camp system, even Stalin may've trembled at the thought of admitting faith. Not all the faithful are St. Stephen. Mr Riggs --

It's not at all certain that Stlain was an atheist. According to Solzhenitsyn in Gulag archipelago (admittedly not a neutral source) Stalin was in his youth a seminary student. And while many, myself included, had a religious youth and atheist adulthood, many too have hidden their [lack of] belief in god for the sake of temporary benefit. And in a totalitarian state, which officially espoused atheism, with an efficient camp system, even Stalin may've trembled at the thought of admitting faith. Not all the faithful are St. Stephen.

]]> By: G Riggs http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26455 G Riggs Mon, 27 Aug 2007 03:24:16 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26455 "I've never heard any atheist say that religious people should not be permitted to guide their own lives according to their beliefs. If you have any examples of atheists who feel otherwise, please present them." So far, Ebonmuse, I'm only aware of one, and one doth not a mob make: Stalin. Not sure, BTW, if one should trust a strictly anecdotal account, but on another forum, I found this autobiographical account of a family member with vivid memories of Stalin: "But here's the thing........my parents are ex-patriots of this time and place. My father tells the story of how all the people in all regions being summoned to their local town halls, having to publicly deny the existence of god, and to state publicly that Stalin was god. My father, amongst others, said don't be bloody rediculous, and knew that at that moment, his days were numbered. So he got out of the country, so as not to be one of the 20 million murdered by Stalin." http://forum.darwinawards.com/index.php?showtopic=8400 Cheers, G Riggs "I've never heard any atheist say that religious people should not be permitted to guide their own lives according to their beliefs. If you have any examples of atheists who feel otherwise, please present them."

So far, Ebonmuse, I'm only aware of one, and one doth not a mob make: Stalin. Not sure, BTW, if one should trust a strictly anecdotal account, but on another forum, I found this autobiographical account of a family member with vivid memories of Stalin:

"But here's the thing........my parents are ex-patriots of this time and place. My father tells the story of how all the people in all regions being summoned to their local town halls, having to publicly deny the existence of god, and to state publicly that Stalin was god. My father, amongst others, said don't be bloody rediculous, and knew that at that moment, his days were numbered. So he got out of the country, so as not to be one of the 20 million murdered by Stalin."

http://forum.darwinawards.com/index.php?showtopic=8400

Cheers,

G Riggs

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26421 OMGF Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:00:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/08/atheists-meek-and-mild.html#comment-26421 <blockquote>P.S. The commenter on my blog who said that I was "forcing a materialistic, Godless view onto others by claiming that you know there is no God" later tried to defend biblical atrocities by arguing that genocide and the infanticide of one's enemies was, in some cases, morally defensible. Just thought you'd like to know.</blockquote> Any theist that holds that god is good and is confronted with the attrocities of the Bible is forced to somehow justify mass murder. Other responses I've seen have been, "It was judgement by god, so therefore just," "I don't know why god did it, but he had to have a good reason because he is good and just," "That's not genocide because god doesn't do that," etc.

P.S. The commenter on my blog who said that I was "forcing a materialistic, Godless view onto others by claiming that you know there is no God" later tried to defend biblical atrocities by arguing that genocide and the infanticide of one's enemies was, in some cases, morally defensible. Just thought you'd like to know.

Any theist that holds that god is good and is confronted with the attrocities of the Bible is forced to somehow justify mass murder. Other responses I've seen have been, "It was judgement by god, so therefore just," "I don't know why god did it, but he had to have a good reason because he is good and just," "That's not genocide because god doesn't do that," etc.

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