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	<title>Comments on: Do You Really Believe That? (III)</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Robin Lionheart</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-54168</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Lionheart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-54168</guid>
		<description>Since reading this, this has become a favorite topic of mine to bring up when someone argues the historical accuracy of the Bible.

A detail that also bears mentioning is that the ancient Egyptians were a record-keeping people who valued literacy. We have ancient records of crop yields, land holdings, and taxes. This is the civilization that invented paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since reading this, this has become a favorite topic of mine to bring up when someone argues the historical accuracy of the Bible.</p>
<p>A detail that also bears mentioning is that the ancient Egyptians were a record-keeping people who valued literacy. We have ancient records of crop yields, land holdings, and taxes. This is the civilization that invented paper.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45856</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45856</guid>
		<description>Johnny might be referring to the Ipuwer Papyrus, which was likely composed during the collapse of Egypt&#039;s Old Kingdom. Meaning that it is too early to fit.

My own pet theory about the Exodus is that it is a garbled memory of the expulsion of the Hyksos, as told by the Hyksos themselves when they arrived in Canaan. The Egyptians were led by Pharaoh Ahmose, whose name sounds like &quot;Brother of Moses&quot; in Hebrew (&lt;i&gt;Akh Moshe&lt;/i&gt;). Later generation of storytellers then invented a whole biography for Moses, and turned &quot;we were driven out of Egypt by Ahmose&quot; into &quot;we were led out of Egypt by Moses&quot;.

The Red Sea? That&#039;s the Septuagint mistranslation of Hebrew &lt;i&gt;yam suph&lt;/i&gt; (Reed Sea). So they went through some marsh that seemed like a sea of reeds. The Egyptians getting drowned in it? That&#039;s more dramatic than the Egyptians stopping chasing the escaping Hyksos and going home.

And when the Hyksos were in Egypt, they could have learned of the Thera disaster from Cretan refugees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnny might be referring to the Ipuwer Papyrus, which was likely composed during the collapse of Egypt's Old Kingdom. Meaning that it is too early to fit.</p>
<p>My own pet theory about the Exodus is that it is a garbled memory of the expulsion of the Hyksos, as told by the Hyksos themselves when they arrived in Canaan. The Egyptians were led by Pharaoh Ahmose, whose name sounds like "Brother of Moses" in Hebrew (<i>Akh Moshe</i>). Later generation of storytellers then invented a whole biography for Moses, and turned "we were driven out of Egypt by Ahmose" into "we were led out of Egypt by Moses".</p>
<p>The Red Sea? That's the Septuagint mistranslation of Hebrew <i>yam suph</i> (Reed Sea). So they went through some marsh that seemed like a sea of reeds. The Egyptians getting drowned in it? That's more dramatic than the Egyptians stopping chasing the escaping Hyksos and going home.</p>
<p>And when the Hyksos were in Egypt, they could have learned of the Thera disaster from Cretan refugees.</p>
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		<title>By: jane hay</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45825</link>
		<dc:creator>jane hay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45825</guid>
		<description>There are many factual problems with the Exodus story - one being that fundies can&#039;t agree on the timeline - some say 1500 BC, some 1400 BC, all the way down to 1200.  Another problem is, the New Kingdom controlled most of Canaan in the late Bronze Age, and this involved Egyptian garrisons, temples, etc. in Canaanite cities.  Even if the Israelites had escaped, Canaan wasn&#039;t available for colonizing.  Egypt, Mitanni, the Hittites and other powers fought over control of the region continually clear down to the general collapse in 1200 - somehow this all seems to have escaped the authors of the Torah. Sorry, they&#039;ll have to change the timeline or their story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many factual problems with the Exodus story - one being that fundies can't agree on the timeline - some say 1500 BC, some 1400 BC, all the way down to 1200.  Another problem is, the New Kingdom controlled most of Canaan in the late Bronze Age, and this involved Egyptian garrisons, temples, etc. in Canaanite cities.  Even if the Israelites had escaped, Canaan wasn't available for colonizing.  Egypt, Mitanni, the Hittites and other powers fought over control of the region continually clear down to the general collapse in 1200 - somehow this all seems to have escaped the authors of the Torah. Sorry, they'll have to change the timeline or their story.</p>
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		<title>By: MountainHumanist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45504</link>
		<dc:creator>MountainHumanist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45504</guid>
		<description>Johnny...please give sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnny...please give sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnny</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45368</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 07:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-45368</guid>
		<description>There are a few errors in the article, one of which is the belief there is no evidence of Egypt ever suffering such a castrophe. Egyptian records tell of Egypt being in such a stat of destruction, and foreign people were able to enter without any problem. People were starving,cattle were dead, fruit trees were destroyed,people were being killed by hail,fires were everywhere, people were looting,the wealthy lost everything, princes were dieing. Archeologists have verified the destruction and found out it took years for Egypt to recover. Buildings were destroyed and a major famine followed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a few errors in the article, one of which is the belief there is no evidence of Egypt ever suffering such a castrophe. Egyptian records tell of Egypt being in such a stat of destruction, and foreign people were able to enter without any problem. People were starving,cattle were dead, fruit trees were destroyed,people were being killed by hail,fires were everywhere, people were looting,the wealthy lost everything, princes were dieing. Archeologists have verified the destruction and found out it took years for Egypt to recover. Buildings were destroyed and a major famine followed.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-39388</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-39388</guid>
		<description>This reminds me of something that Greta Christina has blogged on: &lt;a href=&quot;http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/07/the-pick-two-game.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The &quot;Pick Two&quot; Game, Or, Do Believers Really Believe What They Say They Believe?&lt;/a&gt;.

She proposes that many people who profess to believe in a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent really believe in a God who is only two of those -- or less.

Catholicism: God is not omniscient because you need to perform an elaborate liturgy to get his attention. Also, you pray to saints to intercede with God, which seems rather bureaucratic.

Fundamentalism: God is always right, but he is not only far from omnibenevolent, he has an absolute right to be as malevolent as he wants to. That seems like the position of certain people here.

Liberalism: God is far from omnipotent; he&#039;s very nice and concerned, and he knows all about your suffering, but he couldn&#039;t help you even if he wanted to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This reminds me of something that Greta Christina has blogged on: <a href="http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/07/the-pick-two-game.html" rel="nofollow">The "Pick Two" Game, Or, Do Believers Really Believe What They Say They Believe?</a>.</p>
<p>She proposes that many people who profess to believe in a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent really believe in a God who is only two of those -- or less.</p>
<p>Catholicism: God is not omniscient because you need to perform an elaborate liturgy to get his attention. Also, you pray to saints to intercede with God, which seems rather bureaucratic.</p>
<p>Fundamentalism: God is always right, but he is not only far from omnibenevolent, he has an absolute right to be as malevolent as he wants to. That seems like the position of certain people here.</p>
<p>Liberalism: God is far from omnipotent; he's very nice and concerned, and he knows all about your suffering, but he couldn't help you even if he wanted to.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-39359</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-39359</guid>
		<description>[b]I ask this question: if there actually is an almighty God, is he unjust in the taking of life if He created it? He would be the rightful owner, so to speak. Logic here, nothing more.[/b]

Something given is no longer owned.  Even if god gave us life, he&#039;d have no right to take it back.  Saying god only loaned you life, under a long list of strict terms and conditions and reserving the right to reposess it at any time without justification, doesn&#039;t make him sound so benevolent, does it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[b]I ask this question: if there actually is an almighty God, is he unjust in the taking of life if He created it? He would be the rightful owner, so to speak. Logic here, nothing more.[/b]</p>
<p>Something given is no longer owned.  Even if god gave us life, he'd have no right to take it back.  Saying god only loaned you life, under a long list of strict terms and conditions and reserving the right to reposess it at any time without justification, doesn't make him sound so benevolent, does it?</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-38960</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-38960</guid>
		<description>My pet theory about the plagues of Egypt is that they were memories of the 1650-BCE Minoan caldera eruption of Thera, a volcano also known as Santorini. Those memories were brought to Egypt by refugees, who related them to the Hyksos rulers of northern Egypt.

When the Hyksos were expelled, they took those memories with them back to their original homes in Canaan. On the way, they traveled through some marshes that seemed like a sea of reeds. The Egyptian pharaoh who led this effort was Ahmose, whose name sounds like &quot;Brother of Moses&quot; in Hebrew.

Later storytellers elaborated on who &quot;Moses&quot; was, turned &quot;the Brother of Moses drove us out of Egypt&quot; into &quot;Moses led us out of Egypt&quot;, and &quot;explained&quot; how someone in the royal court of Egypt had changed sides. They also wove those dimly-remembered Thera disasters into that narrative as those plagues of Egypt.

So the Exodus story is a tangled mess of fact and fiction.

I don&#039;t mean to do argument-by-scenario, but the hypothesis is a bit easier to follow when presented as a scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My pet theory about the plagues of Egypt is that they were memories of the 1650-BCE Minoan caldera eruption of Thera, a volcano also known as Santorini. Those memories were brought to Egypt by refugees, who related them to the Hyksos rulers of northern Egypt.</p>
<p>When the Hyksos were expelled, they took those memories with them back to their original homes in Canaan. On the way, they traveled through some marshes that seemed like a sea of reeds. The Egyptian pharaoh who led this effort was Ahmose, whose name sounds like "Brother of Moses" in Hebrew.</p>
<p>Later storytellers elaborated on who "Moses" was, turned "the Brother of Moses drove us out of Egypt" into "Moses led us out of Egypt", and "explained" how someone in the royal court of Egypt had changed sides. They also wove those dimly-remembered Thera disasters into that narrative as those plagues of Egypt.</p>
<p>So the Exodus story is a tangled mess of fact and fiction.</p>
<p>I don't mean to do argument-by-scenario, but the hypothesis is a bit easier to follow when presented as a scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-38939</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-38939</guid>
		<description>At least in the story of the plagues we see the origins of Abrahmaic terrorism.  Did God tell his followers to gird their loins and face the Egyptians &lt;i&gt;mano a mano&lt;/i&gt;?  No, he poisoned the water, destroyed the food, killed children, etc.  Standard terror techniques.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least in the story of the plagues we see the origins of Abrahmaic terrorism.  Did God tell his followers to gird their loins and face the Egyptians <i>mano a mano</i>?  No, he poisoned the water, destroyed the food, killed children, etc.  Standard terror techniques.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Swanson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-37384</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Swanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-37384</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m doing a project on my blog where I&#039;m going through and reading the Bible, blogging about it as I go (an idea I stole from Slate.com). Later today I&#039;ll be posting the part about the Plagues, and I gotta say... what an icky, awful, nasty, horrible story. God comes off basically as an arrogant jerk who goes around doing all these things simply to make himself look better. It&#039;s probably the least pleasant part of the Bible I&#039;ve read so far. :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm doing a project on my blog where I'm going through and reading the Bible, blogging about it as I go (an idea I stole from Slate.com). Later today I'll be posting the part about the Plagues, and I gotta say... what an icky, awful, nasty, horrible story. God comes off basically as an arrogant jerk who goes around doing all these things simply to make himself look better. It's probably the least pleasant part of the Bible I've read so far. :(</p>
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		<title>By: goyo</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-33085</link>
		<dc:creator>goyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-33085</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I ask this question: if there actually is an almighty God, is he unjust in the taking of life if He created it? He would be the rightful owner, so to speak. Logic here, nothing more.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Wow, I remember using this same logic when I used to argue in favor of god.
Yes, he would be unjust. Just think about it, it would be reducing your creation to play-doh creatures that you could torture and kill at your whim. How is that love?
How is that intelligence? 
It&#039;s pretty sad when the old testament is so bad that you have to argue that torture and murder is actually ok, because you can&#039;t interpret the bible any other way.
So rather than admit that it&#039;s all fiction, you have to say that god&#039;s ways are mysterious, and it&#039;s all good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I ask this question: if there actually is an almighty God, is he unjust in the taking of life if He created it? He would be the rightful owner, so to speak. Logic here, nothing more.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wow, I remember using this same logic when I used to argue in favor of god.<br />
Yes, he would be unjust. Just think about it, it would be reducing your creation to play-doh creatures that you could torture and kill at your whim. How is that love?<br />
How is that intelligence?<br />
It's pretty sad when the old testament is so bad that you have to argue that torture and murder is actually ok, because you can't interpret the bible any other way.<br />
So rather than admit that it's all fiction, you have to say that god's ways are mysterious, and it's all good.</p>
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		<title>By: Brit-nontheist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-33075</link>
		<dc:creator>Brit-nontheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/do-you-really-believe-that-iii.html#comment-33075</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; We certainly seem to have a lot of Egyptologists writing here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Sarcasm doesn&#039;t become you, Jerry.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Almost all seem to claim that the historic records of Egypt do not substantiate the biblical story of the plagues. This point will be in dispute anywhere people talk about it.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Whether it&#039;s disputed has no bearning on whether it is true, and does not reflect whether it is genuinely disputed within academic circles - those who claim biblical accuracy always seem to come up woefully short on evidence, surprisingly enough.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Are there any in this forum who have given the bible any scholarly research time?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Why would biblical scholarship (I dislike the term, since I don&#039;t think that the Abrahamic texts have much worth beyond being examples of bad literature, bad history and questionable sociology) matter to us?  The exodus story is pretty clear, unlike some of the rest of the biblical texts, and egyptian history is pretty well documented too.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I ask this question: if there actually is an almighty God, is he unjust in the taking of life if He created it? He would be the rightful owner, so to speak.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Is a parent unjust in taking the life of a child he/she has brought into the world?  Is s/he the rightful owner? (I&#039;d really hope you answer &quot;no&quot; to those questions.) Christians are so fond of calling their god &#039;father&#039; while never stopping to think what an abusive father their god would appear to be!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> We certainly seem to have a lot of Egyptologists writing here.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sarcasm doesn't become you, Jerry.</p>
<blockquote><p>Almost all seem to claim that the historic records of Egypt do not substantiate the biblical story of the plagues. This point will be in dispute anywhere people talk about it.</p></blockquote>
<p> Whether it's disputed has no bearning on whether it is true, and does not reflect whether it is genuinely disputed within academic circles - those who claim biblical accuracy always seem to come up woefully short on evidence, surprisingly enough.</p>
<blockquote><p>Are there any in this forum who have given the bible any scholarly research time?</p></blockquote>
<p>Why would biblical scholarship (I dislike the term, since I don't think that the Abrahamic texts have much worth beyond being examples of bad literature, bad history and questionable sociology) matter to us?  The exodus story is pretty clear, unlike some of the rest of the biblical texts, and egyptian history is pretty well documented too.</p>
<blockquote><p>I ask this question: if there actually is an almighty God, is he unjust in the taking of life if He created it? He would be the rightful owner, so to speak.</p></blockquote>
<p> Is a parent unjust in taking the life of a child he/she has brought into the world?  Is s/he the rightful owner? (I'd really hope you answer "no" to those questions.) Christians are so fond of calling their god 'father' while never stopping to think what an abusive father their god would appear to be!</p>
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