OMGF, Mrnaglfar, Matt, and Brock
I sincerely enjoyed our lively discussions.

I just read Ebonmuse's remark and I do not want to contribute to further derailing. I'm punching out.

Cheers,

Matt

That really is not how the post came across to me. It seemed like a question framed in a Biblical-Christian context.

Cheers,

Matt

Also, as I pointed out, sending anyone to hell for eternity is simply unjust. You can not assert that god is just if he does something that is definitionally unjust. Squares can not be circles, and sending people to hell can not be just.

Oh, and BTW hereigns, Rwanda is a country, not a part of South Africa.

Quoting the bible (the book claimed to have been written, or at least inspired by god,) to justify that deity as being just and loving is kind of strange, and here's why. You can be sure of what god is because you're sure he meant what he himself wrote. I could write a book about how loving and just I am, but that doesn't automatically make it so. If a human did any of the things god did, even to a lesser extent, they would be branded as a genocidal, incompetent fuckhead to say the least.

In his post, Rob seems to be addressing the question of how a loving God could kill innocent people. Oftentimes, such questions are framed by the context of the Bible because the Bible records instances of God killing people who seem to be innocent.

Because the question is framed in the context of God's (hypothetical) existence and based on claims made in the Bible, it is perfectly reasonable for Rob to answer in kind by explaining the Bible.

Cheers,

Matt

Good point. Another thing that I think hasn't been mentioned yet is that most of us remember one period of our lives especially poorly: our childhood. Is childhood therefore meaningless? Or do we have to assume that the memories of our childhood will be restored in the afterlife to make them meaningful? How would that work?

Quoting the bible (the book claimed to have been written, or at least inspired by god,) to justify that deity as being just and loving is kind of strange, and here's why. You can be sure of what god is because you're sure he meant what he himself wrote. I could write a book about how loving and just I am, but that doesn't automatically make it so. If a human did any of the things god did, even to a lesser extent, they would be branded as a genocidal, incompetent fuckhead to say the least.

Some examples from the bible, since we're taking ideas from that: If god wanted people to obey him, why not just make them obey him; counter to that, if he wants people to have free will why then command them to do things and punish them eternally for exercising that free will in a manner that displeases him (seems cruel, or at the very least, incompetent). If I felt that people in the middle east aren't treating each other right, would it be acceptable for me to go over there and kill every man, woman, child, and animal because of that? Likewise, if we are supposedly all 'wicked' creatures, it's only because god made us this way (according to your logic), in which case we're being punished for his screw ups. If sin is so terrible, why a) did god create sin and b) why does god sin himself (look at the 10 commandments, which of them does god himself break in the bible? or the 7 deadly sins, which are displayed in his actions; sloth [resting on the 7th day], anger [killing everything that displeases him], jealously [commanding that all who worship anything else be killed], etc).

How about the story of Job, where god punishes the best (supposedly) person who worships him in terrible ways just to prove a point to the devil (who is supposed to tempt people to sin, who is also someone god created). Where's the justice there?

Or how about the whole Jesus story; if god wanted to forgive people why couldn't he just forgive them? why does he need to send himself down to earth into a virgin to be tortured and killed by the people he's trying to save so he can die in order to forgive people? Can't he just forgive them without having to go through all that? It's just a giant courtroom where god is at once judge, defendant, prosecutor, and jury.

Or how about all the parts of the bible that contradict each other? Since the bible has obvious errors it can't be the absolute truth (if you can't find any start right at the beginning and read about how a man and woman where created at the same time, then about how a man was created first and then a woman from his rib).

The point of all this is, quoting the bible means nothing without evidence. It's no more legitimate then the flying spaghetti monster, or the koran, or wicca, or listing greek or roman gods as answers.

In regards to whether or not God is just...on the surface the Old Testament seems to show many aspects of Gods personality; cruel, unjust, kind, loving, etc. But let's dig a little deeper and see what we come up with.

Because God is perfect, Holy, and Just His love requires justice, 100% of the time (unlike man) and He's not moved by things that move us. Because of man's sin God would be just in wiping out man-kind because of our disobedience to Him. But because of His amazing love and wonderful grace we have been offered a free gift, His loving, obedient, even to death, Son.

Question: How could a loving God kill "innocent" people?

Deuteronomy 9:5 "...it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you..."

God said the people He was driving out were wicked, guess the "innocent" weren't so innocent. Which begs the question, 'What kind of wickedness could they be doing that would cause God to drive them out'?

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

It becomes painfully clear the people were wicked. God, who is Holy and Perfect, therefore anything that is not, if He is Just, MUST be corrected. God's righteousness requires the judgment of all sin. Please keep in mind too that God is long-suffering and mericiful, much more than you and I. The covenant He made with Abraham He kept (every promise), in spite of the rebellious house of Israel. How many times did He warn the Kings of Israel to stop their wickedness before He was forced to act and correct them? Men and women killed, women raped, villages destoryed, taken captive, because of their own wickedness; they broke the Lord's covenant made with Abraham and God kept His promise to correct them as well.

If God loves us why did He flood the earth?

Gensis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Notice God used two very important words in this verse that should not be overlooked, "every" and "only", when describing the intent and thought of mans heart. I can't even begin to phathom or imagine what the world must have looked like during this time. This is some crazy stuff going on here...talk about total chaos. Probably the closest thing we've seen in our lifetime is Darfur or Rwhanda, South Africa.

2 Peter 2:5 Seems God even called Noah to be a preacher of righteousness, yet the people still refused to listen and continued in their wickedness. God even went so far as to offer a way of salvation! He provided an Ark through Noah and his family and yet no one else followed. The means of salvation, preaching of righteousness, and God’s patience were there, yet everyone else refused them and received their judgment.

Fast forward a couple millenium later and we can clearly see we are now back in the times of Noah; as the ark was a shadow of things to come. Today the ark is being built and scoffers are all around. Believers are sharing the Good News of Jesus throughout the world, even unto death.

So what about Sodom and Gomorrah - Genesis 18-19. The Lord revealed to Abraham that Sodom and Gomorrah have sinned exceedingly. The fullness of their wickedness was revealed in Ezekiel 16:49-50 "...She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit."

Abraham asked if God would sweep away the righteous with the wicked. He asked the Lord if there were 50 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 40 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 30 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 20 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 10 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. This reveals how wicked and sinful the people were. They were without excuse and judgment was finally coming.

Lot and his family numbered less than 10 in Sodom and Gomorrah (Lot, his wife, his two daughters, his two sons-in-law, and two angels only made 8, the same as the Flood). Yet, God provided a means of salvation for them. The angels came and helped them get to safety.

God is nothing if He is not just! He has always and will always punish/correctunrighteousness. Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Interestingly enough, people who say God is cruel or unjust are the same ones who want justice when they are attacked, which is a double-standard. In both the Old Testament and New Testament God judges sin people had or have the opportunity to get back to a right relationship with Him. Mercy and patience were to be found through God’s vessels Noah, with his preaching for years. Abraham, with his pleading for Sodom and Gomorrah. His mercy and patience are still available today (2 Peter 3:9). And God has provided a means of salvation, a new ark if you will, in Jesus.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So, the lesson, we should hate sin (Romans 12:9) and love God (Deuteronomy 6:5) who acts justly against sin (2 Thessalonians 1:5–10). Yet he offers abundant mercy to those who love Him (Exodus 20:6; Deuteronomy 7:9; Ephesians 2:4). I pray this helps.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Mercy and Justice are the foundations of His throne.

Rob

Eternity or forever is a difficult concept in that I think it can be defined in several ways. If it is considered to be the totality of all time, then I've never understood why people think it is so important that they continue to exist after they are dead, when it is never considered very important whether we exist before we become alive. Maybe some religious traditions consider it and consider it an important period of time, but I grew up Christian and I never remember it being given much thought at all. It would seem to me that the most important time while I'm alive is just that particularly short period. And as you say that moment is eternal in some sense.

I find it a comforting way to frame existence, then again, so far my life has generally been pretty good. Definitely there's been some rough patches, but overall I'm satisfied so far. But when I consider some of the more horrible things that can happen to a person: being murdered, having a child murdered, being gang-raped, being pregnant from such a rape, etc. Other than being the murdered person, people often talk of letting it go, moving on with the passage of time. A perception of linear progression of time then seems like it would be much more comforting than thinking of the event as an "eternal moment", even if one knows it (as much as they know anything) to be true.

But that leads to the question of whether it better for a person to let themselves believe a lie, just because it comforting. I know Christians who have had some of these horrible things happen to them, and I really don't think it is possible to deprogram someone after such an event. I never really try very hard at convincing theists against the idea of God. There is the hope of meeting the lost love one again and/or the divine justice. But I have said before that if their beliefs are correct, then I'm the one who will be in hell and the murderer/rapist is very likely going to be in heaven according to their own beliefs. I mean God doesn't really care about rape and murder as long as you believe in him and make your best attempt, even if you are a sinner, right?

But I digress. I guess I'm not completely sure how the "eternity of the moment" adds to the meaning of life. But I'm glad I'm here.

People have a personal agenda based on their personal needs and desires. usually the people I deal with have needs and desires that differ from mine, so that if I don't allow for this I find their actions unreasonable and hurtful, because they are acting in accordance with their own agenda, not mine. Consequently, I feel "sinned" against. If I understand that everybody has their own agenda, I can adjust my actions to account for this, and if I help others meet their needs and desires, they tend to reciprocate. I feel this is probably a better basis for "love" than if I were to forgive them, bless them and pray for them, which helps them not at all, but merely makes me feel superior and "loving." The flip side of this is that if someone is angry at me, it's because I failed to consider their agenda in my actions. I therefore need to look at my own actions, rather than putting the entire blame on them.
If this seems simplistic, it's because it's a simple concept...at least it is if my mind isn't all cluttered up with prescientific notions of psychology.