The naturalistic or evoutionary explanations do not get to the essence of what we understand intuitively by "morality".

I hear this a lot...

The simple fact is that we are evolved as a social animal, much like all other mammals (I think all...) Social animals have also evolved rules for living in social structures, which is where morality comes into play. If there is no such thing as moral behavior, then societies and groups fall apart, and we could not have survived as social animals (which was essential for survival - strength in numbers and all that). It's still something that needs more study, but it makes a lot of sense, especially since we see the same sorts of behavior in other animals.

What I can say is that looking at Omni(everything) and Free will is not addressing the whole equation. Neglecting the other attributes makes the formula incomplete.

"Omni-everything" is all the attributes.

What do you mean by "I will change my argument accordingly"

It means that if I'm arguing against a belief that you don't hold, then I'll stop using that argument. It would be fruitless to argue against free will using an argument against "omni-everythingness" if you don't believe that god is omni-everything.

Not sure how often you get Christians here or if we are welcome, but I have certainly have gotten my share of questions thrown my way. Not that I am complaining, but it is difficult to address them all when it fells like I am being tag-teamed.

You are welcome here so long as you don't start preaching - that's when Ebon starts deleting stuff. As for tag-teaming, I think that's a byproduct of the fact that you happen to be rather out-numbered. It's not meant to stop you from conversing, it's just a natural occurrence. I get the same when I go onto Xian sites.

Many of us were raised in religious, usually christian, traditions and are now atheists because we asked these kinds of questions or came to these realizations and found that there were no good arguments on the other side.

I certainly hope that this discussion does not seem to be an attack in any way, just spirited debate. You are welcome to hang around and I would venture to guess that if anyone was bored or put off by the debate, they would have dropped off by now.

Finally, I don't think anyone on this board has an interest in 'converting' you, but this is a good opportunity for consciousness-raising. Often, christians mis-characterize atheists as being angry with god, rejecting the holy spirit, or not adopting their particular definition of god as the reason we don't play with their invisible friend. Even Francis Collins (remember him? he's what this thread was about!) resorts to a strawman of atheism, critisizing the 'strong' definition of atheism (the positive assertion that god does not exist), as opposed to the much, much more common 'weak' definition: one who has not seen sufficient evidence of gods' existence to believe. If through this discussion, we can have one more believer who understands what atheism is about, the effort will have been worthwhile.

SJL, as long as you keep asking questions and follow them wherever the answers lead you, you will move in the direction of the truth. Even if we can never ultimately find it.

I hope you stick around, as I'm enjoying the debate. Part of the reason you're feeling tag-teamed is that, much as we like the support and enthusiasm of talking to fellow atheists, it's much easier to have a good debate with someone who disagrees with you. Here, that happens when posts get into off-god topics like politics or biased media (also interesting debates) or a thoughtful theist shows up. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss and listen.

I also hope you don't get the idea that because you can't answer an argument you've somehow confirmed problems people have with Christianity or that we really expected you to pull out a good response. After all, the best theologians in the last 2000 years haven't been able to answer these questions. There are two points in bringing them up: to show you some of the irreconcilable problems that (in many cases) drove people away from Christianity or keep them from buying it; to point out to you something you may not have considered in your own religion which may help you see where atheists are coming from; and of course, to open the door in case a god has picked you to share some real answers. Hey, new evidence would surprise me, but I'd listen.

Whoops...ok, there are three points...

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

I do enjoy these discussions, they have opened a bunch of questions that I need to find a way to answer. Most of the time I know what I believe about the answer, but conveying it can be difficult. I'm not as articulate as I would like to be.

So if you are enjoying this dialog, then I am glad to continue. If you feel like I am wasting your time, then I will leave, no harm no foul.

As far as who I am, I am not affiliated with any traditional churches, The grid in which I fit best is the Kingdom Theology( Not Kingdom Now, very different) I also fit into the Post-Charismatic group.

What do you mean by "I will change my argument accordingly"

I apologize if it was received as a personal attack.

No worries.

The point that I was trying to make is that, things are not black and white. You try to paint things that way when they simply are not.

First of all, what Marty said.

Second, it's not about being black and white, it's about logic and illogic. If you believe that god is omni-everything, then I am absolved of any responsibility. Again, I should point out that I don't personally feel that way. I do feel that I am responsible for my actions. I'm simply arguing your beliefs to their logical conclusion. If you hold that god is omni-everything, then logically it leads to determinism and me off the hook.

If you don't hold to omni-everythingness, then I shall change my argument accordingly.

I don't mean to offend, but like I said before, I think you have a very bad understanding of the character of god. His grace is boundless.

If god's grace is boundless, then no one will go to hell. Otherwise, god's grace is not boundless. Actually, I could go further and argue that god's grace is not boundless simply because of suffering in this world, but I'll leave that for later.

I'm telling you right here, right now, that your logic is flawed. God is much bigger than your assumptions. It is not either this or that…it is all of that. Failing to understand that is at the root of your disbelief."

OK, SJL, enlighten us. Tell us the nature of god. Specifically, please address the logical flaw of OMGF's very clearly outlined irreconcilability between god as omniscent and human free will. While you are at it, please tell us YOUR assumptions, because reading this latest round of dialogue, I see us veering into the squishiness that attends so many god claims. By that I mean, an atheist addresses a logical fallacy based on the qualities commonly ascribed to god (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinitely just, loving and merciful, etc.), and the theist says 'no, god's not like that at all'. In this case, OMGF is working off a point of dogma that many Protestant sects hold to be true-- that events are pre-destined. SJL, you've stated that you're not a fundamentalist, and I think you have otherwise indicated that you are not affiliated with more traditional christian churches (information which would give us a better understanding of what flavor god you claim to believe in). Help us get past our limited, un-inspired assumptions.

So what, would you be jealous if I truly was "special" and I actully had coffee with him at Starbucks? (matching sarcasm with sarcasm...sorry ;-)

I apologize if it was received as a personal attack.
The point that I was trying to make is that, things are not black and white. You try to paint things that way when they simply are not. You have the freedom to do what you like. Even if God knew that you would respond in a certain way. Absolving yourself of the blame is not a logical answer. I think we are both seeing the situation from very different view points. I don't mean to offend, but like I said before, I think you have a very bad understanding of the character of god. His grace is boundless.

God is much bigger than your assumptions.

It's disappointing to see you fold under questioning, SJL. Atheists, particularly regulars here, won't dismiss your arguments because we can't counter them. We'll dismiss them because we've seen them before and didn't find them persuasive the last time they were offered.

To define this as close-mindedness is more rhetorical white-flaggery. You seem to want to quit the field so that you can yell from the sidelines.