Comments on: Opting Out http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:09:52 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27158 OMGF Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:13:17 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27158 OK Polly, I gets it. Thanks for clarifying and for the others who pitched in. OK Polly, I gets it. Thanks for clarifying and for the others who pitched in.

]]> By: Thumpalumpacus http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27145 Thumpalumpacus Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:32:15 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27145 All Christians are human beings, and deserving of simple courtesy for that reason alone (unless and until they themselves abandon said courtesy). And I think James is onto something when he points up our comfort with having our beliefs questioned. Perhaps if Christians had their beliefs questioned more, their comfort-level might also rise? All Christians are human beings, and deserving of simple courtesy for that reason alone (unless and until they themselves abandon said courtesy). And I think James is onto something when he points up our comfort with having our beliefs questioned. Perhaps if Christians had their beliefs questioned more, their comfort-level might also rise?

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27141 Polly Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:54:04 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27141 Valhar2000, You summarized my point, perfectly. Valhar2000,

You summarized my point, perfectly.

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27140 Polly Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:41:44 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27140 OMGF & JB Yes, you got it. My nonbelief in deity doesn't have the same <i>emotional</i> impact on me as having a best friend (or an invisible but present Father). I should have qualified my statement above. This is only <i>one kind</i> of believer. I shouldn't have made it sound like ALL xians. When I sense that I'm arguing with someone who's really emotionally invested (in any topic), I tread more carefully. I don't think one can get through to the brain while the heart is in the way. OMGF & JB

Yes, you got it. My nonbelief in deity doesn't have the same emotional impact on me as having a best friend (or an invisible but present Father). I should have qualified my statement above. This is only one kind of believer. I shouldn't have made it sound like ALL xians. When I sense that I'm arguing with someone who's really emotionally invested (in any topic), I tread more carefully. I don't think one can get through to the brain while the heart is in the way.

]]> By: Valhar2000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27139 Valhar2000 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:00:58 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27139 I think Polly may have been talking about Jesus specifically. In that case, she is probably right; Jesus is, after all, their best friend (or so they say), whereas to us he is somebody else's imaginary friend, so discussing his historicity or the faults in his alleged character is not quite as momentous for us as it is for them. I think Polly may have been talking about Jesus specifically. In that case, she is probably right; Jesus is, after all, their best friend (or so they say), whereas to us he is somebody else's imaginary friend, so discussing his historicity or the faults in his alleged character is not quite as momentous for us as it is for them.

]]> By: James Bradbury http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27133 James Bradbury Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:09:09 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27133 Polly, OMGF: I don't think our beliefs are any less personal, but we might be less disturbed by them being questioned. I would guess at some combination of the following as reasons for this: - We're unlikely to suffer ostracism for questioning or changing our beliefs. - We're used to questioning beliefs, for many of us that's how we arrived here. - Atheism is not brought into doubt by the mere existence of those who don't agree. Polly, OMGF:

I don't think our beliefs are any less personal, but we might be less disturbed by them being questioned. I would guess at some combination of the following as reasons for this:
- We're unlikely to suffer ostracism for questioning or changing our beliefs.
- We're used to questioning beliefs, for many of us that's how we arrived here.
- Atheism is not brought into doubt by the mere existence of those who don't agree.

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27118 OMGF Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:40:31 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27118 Polly, <blockquote>This is why I am careful in how I respond to Xians. I realize that for them, this is a much more personal matter than it is for me.</blockquote> Why would you say that? I don't understand why you think beliefs are somehow more personal for theists than for atheists. Do you mean that because our beliefs are grounded in reason instead of emotion that we are not as invested in them in an emotional sense? Polly,

This is why I am careful in how I respond to Xians. I realize that for them, this is a much more personal matter than it is for me.

Why would you say that? I don't understand why you think beliefs are somehow more personal for theists than for atheists. Do you mean that because our beliefs are grounded in reason instead of emotion that we are not as invested in them in an emotional sense?

]]> By: Rastaban http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27115 Rastaban Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:04:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27115 <blockquote>...nothing is more threatening to a faith-based consensus than reasonable dissent.</blockquote> That reminds me of a poem called "Talk of Faith" by DH Lawrence, <blockquote>And people who talk about faith usually want to force somebody to agree with them, as if there were safety in numbers, even for faith.</blockquote> which summarizes pretty well the insecurity of faith and the resulting insatiable need to make everyone agree.

...nothing is more threatening to a faith-based consensus than reasonable dissent.

That reminds me of a poem called "Talk of Faith" by DH Lawrence,

And people who talk about faith usually want to force somebody to agree with them, as if there were safety in numbers, even for faith.

which summarizes pretty well the insecurity of faith and the resulting insatiable need to make everyone agree.

]]> By: Lynet http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27111 Lynet Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:03:58 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27111 I haven't read that Christian's whole post, but frankly, I don't think it was wrong of her to describe the reactions of other people as 'gushing' at all. Sure, she might not have called them 'gushing' if they were on her side, but we probably would call Christians 'gushing' in exactly that sense when they are not on our side. Fair's fair. And this way, if a non-Christian describes Christians as 'gushing' to her, she'll know exactly where they are coming from. Right? I haven't read that Christian's whole post, but frankly, I don't think it was wrong of her to describe the reactions of other people as 'gushing' at all. Sure, she might not have called them 'gushing' if they were on her side, but we probably would call Christians 'gushing' in exactly that sense when they are not on our side. Fair's fair. And this way, if a non-Christian describes Christians as 'gushing' to her, she'll know exactly where they are coming from. Right?

]]> By: javaman http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27110 javaman Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:48:03 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27110 Xian's are also kept in line by spliting the world's people into two groups, the other group being under the control of satan.If you dare to question and disagree with the leaders of your church you must be under the control of satan or his partner.These disfellowed ones are shunned and cutoff completely from the main group so as to serve as an example of what will happen to you.If you are a child or young teens this must be a very effective method of control that carrys over to adulthood. I addition to proudlly stating my atheism viewpoints to others, this also includes disbelieve in satan and hell, which also freaks xians out. Xian's are also kept in line by spliting the world's people into two groups, the other group being under the control of satan.If you dare to question and disagree with the leaders of your church you must be under the control of satan or his partner.These disfellowed ones are shunned and cutoff completely from the main group so as to serve as an example of what will happen to you.If you are a child or young teens this must be a very effective method of control that carrys over to adulthood. I addition to proudlly stating my atheism viewpoints to others, this also includes disbelieve in satan and hell, which also freaks xians out.

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27107 Polly Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:44:16 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27107 I am going to try to speak my opinions more often. I do censor myself a lot. It makes a big difference knowing someone in "real" life who thinks like me in this regard. So, I shouldn't be hiding myself when there might be others who could benefit from a kindred mind. I think it was sensitive and perceptive of the writer to think about the atheist position in the midst of her own discomfort. I hope she takes something away from the experience that goes beyond the (for her) negativity of it. <blockquote>it was like hearing your closest friend be cruelly made fun of behind their back and you are too ashamed to say anything. all the darkened faces tossed back in laughter as they watch a mockery made of christ's death. the defining moment of your heart's life simplified to absurdity, to fluff, to jibberish. not just meaningless, but humorously so. </blockquote> - the quoted writer This is why I am careful in how I respond to Xians. I realize that for them, this is a much more personal matter than it is for me. I am going to try to speak my opinions more often. I do censor myself a lot. It makes a big difference knowing someone in "real" life who thinks like me in this regard. So, I shouldn't be hiding myself when there might be others who could benefit from a kindred mind.

I think it was sensitive and perceptive of the writer to think about the atheist position in the midst of her own discomfort. I hope she takes something away from the experience that goes beyond the (for her) negativity of it.

it was like hearing your closest friend be cruelly made fun of behind their back and you are too ashamed to say anything. all the darkened faces tossed back in laughter as they watch a mockery made of christ's death. the defining moment of your heart's life simplified to absurdity, to fluff, to jibberish. not just meaningless, but humorously so.

- the quoted writer

This is why I am careful in how I respond to Xians. I realize that for them, this is a much more personal matter than it is for me.

]]> By: Valhar2000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27088 Valhar2000 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:52:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/09/opting-out.html#comment-27088 There was nothing perceptive about that author; it was just the same paranoid self-pitying rubbish that beleivers can't seem to let go of. Rather than feeling peer pressure during the Q&A session, what she felt was scared by the lack of the ussual pro-religion peer pressure that she requires to feel safe. How insecure can you be? Then all the usual rubbish about better knowing the fact but not using them to decide (what the hell?), the fatc that she feels god in her heart and no-one can prove she does not, that she has hope and people who don't beleive don't. If she had that much hope, why would she feel attacked by being in the same room as people who do not share her delusions? Well, there you have the reason why I might be inclined to say beleivers are weak and stupid: if I were to generalize from her case, that would be the only conlusion possible. There was nothing perceptive about that author; it was just the same paranoid self-pitying rubbish that beleivers can't seem to let go of. Rather than feeling peer pressure during the Q&A session, what she felt was scared by the lack of the ussual pro-religion peer pressure that she requires to feel safe. How insecure can you be?

Then all the usual rubbish about better knowing the fact but not using them to decide (what the hell?), the fatc that she feels god in her heart and no-one can prove she does not, that she has hope and people who don't beleive don't. If she had that much hope, why would she feel attacked by being in the same room as people who do not share her delusions?

Well, there you have the reason why I might be inclined to say beleivers are weak and stupid: if I were to generalize from her case, that would be the only conlusion possible.

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