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	<title>Comments on: On Atheist Janitors</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: ajanitor</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-48786</link>
		<dc:creator>ajanitor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-48786</guid>
		<description>I am also one of the people this emailer is speaking of . I am a janitor as for never reading a book . we janitors have plenty of time to read more than most people i imagine , (except security guards of course ) :P . atheism is appreciable by all you don&#039;t need a life of intellectual  pursuit to enjoy asking yourself the questions raised by life . It just helps to be getting payed for it .Thinking and questioning life is a ability that is free and requires almost no resources. so for every janitor or laborer  who&#039;s never read a book .There are also the ones who like to spend there day trying to understand why space and time are essentially the same thing ,( even if we have a hard time understanding it we still try because its fun ). Tho i may have regrets about were i am in life, i may not have seized all the opportunities.That doesnt stop me from enjoying what i do have and what my mind can conceive of . Truth is the greatest opium :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also one of the people this emailer is speaking of . I am a janitor as for never reading a book . we janitors have plenty of time to read more than most people i imagine , (except security guards of course ) :P . atheism is appreciable by all you don't need a life of intellectual  pursuit to enjoy asking yourself the questions raised by life . It just helps to be getting payed for it .Thinking and questioning life is a ability that is free and requires almost no resources. so for every janitor or laborer  who's never read a book .There are also the ones who like to spend there day trying to understand why space and time are essentially the same thing ,( even if we have a hard time understanding it we still try because its fun ). Tho i may have regrets about were i am in life, i may not have seized all the opportunities.That doesnt stop me from enjoying what i do have and what my mind can conceive of . Truth is the greatest opium :P</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-39094</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-39094</guid>
		<description>I think Serban is on the right lines in assuming that the fading of religions has worsened delinquency in what are generally known as lower classes - not necessarily for giving them a religious motivation to work, but for the structure and strong sense of community they provide.  Speaking from the perspective of the UK, I don&#039;t think it can be denied that youth society has deteriorated - gang membership, delinquency and violence are rising alarmingly, but it&#039;s not really surprising why, considering that the institutions of many Western societies seem to be becoming increasingly sociopathic in a number of ways:

Materialism has come to eclipse all other values in life, people are judged and always encouraged by popular culture to judge others exclusively by what they posess - I have no doubt whatsoever that this is deeply psychologically harmful for the lower classes, those who are indeed, for whatever reason, irredeemably left of the bell curves of intelligence or employability and who are fully aware that they are doomed forever to a low income - enough to stay alive, perhaps even enough to live on comfortably if you&#039;re careful, but, crucially, nowhere near enough to register in material wealth compared to the middle and upper classes.  With no other sense of worth afforded to them in an exclusively materialistic world, and unable to achieve equality to their neighbours in material worth by honest means, is it any wonder that frustration and anger and, of course, muggings and robberies are high amongst that class?  The average religion accepts rich and poor alike, and affords them the status they crave, consciously or unconsciously, for tasks that absolutely anyone can do - typically little more than turning up once a week and loudly affirming faith, so naturally it will tend to provide a natural alternative to material self worth, even if it&#039;s entirely artificial (which, as an atheist, I of course hold it to be)

The world of material wealth production is notoriously sociopathic, and always has been.  Human beings have no value whatsoever to an industrial or economic entity other than as producers of products; if more efficient ones become available elsewhere, you immediately fire the ones you&#039;ve got and hire them instead.  Notions of loyalty, community or simple compassion don&#039;t come into it.  There is no such thing as job security at the present time, no sense that one is of any more value to one&#039;s employer than an inanimate object, and so no real sense of belonging or having found one&#039;s place in life can be gleaned from the pursuit of materialism in the form of western capitalism either.  Religions, by comparison, positively excel at providing a sense of community, of loyalty, of belonging, of family.  Again, when religion vanishes, any sense of security, of community, of being amongst friends, vanishes with it.  This one isn&#039;t, I don&#039;t think, exclusive to the lower classes but damaging to all levels of society - take a look around, people are becoming ever more distrustful and alienated from everyone else, because there&#039;s simply nothing to bring them together.  There&#039;s a current moral panic about gangs, but is it any wonder that they are forming when they provide their members with a sense of loyalty and security that they simply cannot get anywhere else?  Again, the less intelligent and the uneducated are hit the worst, I believe, because the educated and the intellectual have a tendency to automatically feel a certain kinship and community with any other intelligent or educated person they meet - a glance over the logs of this board alone is a testament to that.

At first glance, you might confuse my post as an argument in favour of the return of religion to dominate life, either sincerely or as an Orwellian ruse by the upper classes to keep the lower classes in their place.  It is neither.  The trouble is, Serban seems to have couched his posts only in terms of what was, and what is - and expressly seems to hold that nothing better than one of the two situations can be arrived at.  I disagree.  Many have lamented that atheism, on its own, merely states that religions, for all their benefits as I have described above, are ultimately dangerous delusions based on frequenly insane myths and stories that do more harm than good, but offers nothing in substitute for the good aspects that would be lost along with the bad were religion to disappear; depressingly, this seems to be exactly the way much of secular Western society is headed.

Does it have to be that way, though?  Atheism isn&#039;t an exclusive belief; it&#039;s a starting point for higher things.  Secular humanism has been mentioned already.  While current secular societies certainly, and potentially disastrously, do not offer anything like the socially stabilising effects that traditional religions do, as described above, &lt;i&gt;is there any reason that they couldn&#039;t?&lt;/i&gt;  The problem is clear: we need some new construct, some new system, to provide those beneficial aspects traditionally supplied by organised religions, but based on something sane and rational, something compatible with atheism.  Fundamentalist theists love to accuse atheism of being a religion, even though it patently isn&#039;t; perhaps it could benefit, however, from acting more like one in some practical respects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Serban is on the right lines in assuming that the fading of religions has worsened delinquency in what are generally known as lower classes - not necessarily for giving them a religious motivation to work, but for the structure and strong sense of community they provide.  Speaking from the perspective of the UK, I don't think it can be denied that youth society has deteriorated - gang membership, delinquency and violence are rising alarmingly, but it's not really surprising why, considering that the institutions of many Western societies seem to be becoming increasingly sociopathic in a number of ways:</p>
<p>Materialism has come to eclipse all other values in life, people are judged and always encouraged by popular culture to judge others exclusively by what they posess - I have no doubt whatsoever that this is deeply psychologically harmful for the lower classes, those who are indeed, for whatever reason, irredeemably left of the bell curves of intelligence or employability and who are fully aware that they are doomed forever to a low income - enough to stay alive, perhaps even enough to live on comfortably if you're careful, but, crucially, nowhere near enough to register in material wealth compared to the middle and upper classes.  With no other sense of worth afforded to them in an exclusively materialistic world, and unable to achieve equality to their neighbours in material worth by honest means, is it any wonder that frustration and anger and, of course, muggings and robberies are high amongst that class?  The average religion accepts rich and poor alike, and affords them the status they crave, consciously or unconsciously, for tasks that absolutely anyone can do - typically little more than turning up once a week and loudly affirming faith, so naturally it will tend to provide a natural alternative to material self worth, even if it's entirely artificial (which, as an atheist, I of course hold it to be)</p>
<p>The world of material wealth production is notoriously sociopathic, and always has been.  Human beings have no value whatsoever to an industrial or economic entity other than as producers of products; if more efficient ones become available elsewhere, you immediately fire the ones you've got and hire them instead.  Notions of loyalty, community or simple compassion don't come into it.  There is no such thing as job security at the present time, no sense that one is of any more value to one's employer than an inanimate object, and so no real sense of belonging or having found one's place in life can be gleaned from the pursuit of materialism in the form of western capitalism either.  Religions, by comparison, positively excel at providing a sense of community, of loyalty, of belonging, of family.  Again, when religion vanishes, any sense of security, of community, of being amongst friends, vanishes with it.  This one isn't, I don't think, exclusive to the lower classes but damaging to all levels of society - take a look around, people are becoming ever more distrustful and alienated from everyone else, because there's simply nothing to bring them together.  There's a current moral panic about gangs, but is it any wonder that they are forming when they provide their members with a sense of loyalty and security that they simply cannot get anywhere else?  Again, the less intelligent and the uneducated are hit the worst, I believe, because the educated and the intellectual have a tendency to automatically feel a certain kinship and community with any other intelligent or educated person they meet - a glance over the logs of this board alone is a testament to that.</p>
<p>At first glance, you might confuse my post as an argument in favour of the return of religion to dominate life, either sincerely or as an Orwellian ruse by the upper classes to keep the lower classes in their place.  It is neither.  The trouble is, Serban seems to have couched his posts only in terms of what was, and what is - and expressly seems to hold that nothing better than one of the two situations can be arrived at.  I disagree.  Many have lamented that atheism, on its own, merely states that religions, for all their benefits as I have described above, are ultimately dangerous delusions based on frequenly insane myths and stories that do more harm than good, but offers nothing in substitute for the good aspects that would be lost along with the bad were religion to disappear; depressingly, this seems to be exactly the way much of secular Western society is headed.</p>
<p>Does it have to be that way, though?  Atheism isn't an exclusive belief; it's a starting point for higher things.  Secular humanism has been mentioned already.  While current secular societies certainly, and potentially disastrously, do not offer anything like the socially stabilising effects that traditional religions do, as described above, <i>is there any reason that they couldn't?</i>  The problem is clear: we need some new construct, some new system, to provide those beneficial aspects traditionally supplied by organised religions, but based on something sane and rational, something compatible with atheism.  Fundamentalist theists love to accuse atheism of being a religion, even though it patently isn't; perhaps it could benefit, however, from acting more like one in some practical respects.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37181</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37181</guid>
		<description>What exactly is the question?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What exactly is the question?</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37148</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37148</guid>
		<description>I am also looking for input from Ebon on a matter. I believe imbalance relationship, especially those from feudalistic society, for example, like the father deserves more respect then his child and that the father can freely hurt the children&#039;s pride/dignity, is no way justifiable -- based on the humanists approach I read so far.
Yet religions (organized ones) stipulates the kind of &quot;dividing&quot; people into classes which some get more respect than others (e.g. man over woman, old over young) regardless of the person&#039;s deed, objective evidences etc.
Is there anything that can shed some light ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also looking for input from Ebon on a matter. I believe imbalance relationship, especially those from feudalistic society, for example, like the father deserves more respect then his child and that the father can freely hurt the children's pride/dignity, is no way justifiable -- based on the humanists approach I read so far.<br />
Yet religions (organized ones) stipulates the kind of "dividing" people into classes which some get more respect than others (e.g. man over woman, old over young) regardless of the person's deed, objective evidences etc.<br />
Is there anything that can shed some light ?</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37147</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37147</guid>
		<description>I have met with a Christian who said if there&#039;s no God, our lives will be meaningless and like wild animals. To which I replied, &quot;You totally leave out your very capability of choice and freethinking in the equation&quot;.

People do not want to take up the heavy &quot;duty&quot; to search / define meaning of lives by themselves because they are never ever enpowered to do so -- and taught by others not to trust humanity</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have met with a Christian who said if there's no God, our lives will be meaningless and like wild animals. To which I replied, "You totally leave out your very capability of choice and freethinking in the equation".</p>
<p>People do not want to take up the heavy "duty" to search / define meaning of lives by themselves because they are never ever enpowered to do so -- and taught by others not to trust humanity</p>
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		<title>By: meg</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33892</link>
		<dc:creator>meg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33892</guid>
		<description>As a person on the lower end of the economic scale who has spent many years drudging on the bottom as a certified nursing assistant in a long term care facility, I can assure you as an &quot;average&quot; person atheism is pretty viable.  Doing post-mortem care on shriveled, disease ridden bodies is actually pretty condusive to an atheistic point of view!!!  Also, I manage to find time to read books and make myself happy.  Oh the shock of it all!!!  I know I am contributing late to this dicussion, but I felt it needed to be said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a person on the lower end of the economic scale who has spent many years drudging on the bottom as a certified nursing assistant in a long term care facility, I can assure you as an "average" person atheism is pretty viable.  Doing post-mortem care on shriveled, disease ridden bodies is actually pretty condusive to an atheistic point of view!!!  Also, I manage to find time to read books and make myself happy.  Oh the shock of it all!!!  I know I am contributing late to this dicussion, but I felt it needed to be said.</p>
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		<title>By: c</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33073</link>
		<dc:creator>c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33073</guid>
		<description>My answer to the argument that atheism makes society collapse is Sweden.  Now hear me out before you laugh.  Many studies have found Sweden to be the most atheistic country on Earth (about 60-80% depending mostly on definition).  Is Sweden a cesspool of crime and violence?  In fact, the general trend is that wealthy, developed nations tend to be far more atheistic than nations in deep poverty (with some exceptions like the US and Vietnam).  The evidence does not suggest that religious countries are more successful, in fact, it implies the exact opposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My answer to the argument that atheism makes society collapse is Sweden.  Now hear me out before you laugh.  Many studies have found Sweden to be the most atheistic country on Earth (about 60-80% depending mostly on definition).  Is Sweden a cesspool of crime and violence?  In fact, the general trend is that wealthy, developed nations tend to be far more atheistic than nations in deep poverty (with some exceptions like the US and Vietnam).  The evidence does not suggest that religious countries are more successful, in fact, it implies the exact opposite.</p>
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		<title>By: Angie</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27807</link>
		<dc:creator>Angie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27807</guid>
		<description>Same here - arrived late but really appreciate this forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Same here - arrived late but really appreciate this forum.</p>
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		<title>By: ZekeCDN</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27805</link>
		<dc:creator>ZekeCDN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 02:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27805</guid>
		<description>It seems I&#039;ve arrived too late to contribute to this discussion, but I&#039;d still like to pass along my thanks to all of the contributors for a terrific, thought-provoking thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems I've arrived too late to contribute to this discussion, but I'd still like to pass along my thanks to all of the contributors for a terrific, thought-provoking thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Vicki Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27617</link>
		<dc:creator>Vicki Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27617</guid>
		<description>Chiming in late, but I wanted to say how much I appreciated this article and subseqent comments. For me, many of the comments spoke to how the process of achieving more truth and openness in relationships is so much more complicated than just getting our metaphysical facts straight.
I thought the article was a beautiful contrast to an undercurrent I see in some streams of the &quot;New Atheist&quot; (for lack of a better word) movement: the idea that the forces of reason are beset by &quot;barbarians at the gates&quot; - ignorant aggressors infected by harmful mind viruses, with whom there is no chance of reasonable discussion. Probably some people will vehemently deny that such an undercurrent exists, but I think Serban&#039;s comments are a good example of what I mean, though he seems to be saying that it&#039;s okay for &quot;those people&quot; to have religion if it keeps them under control.
To Serban - you might want to get hold of a copy of &quot;The Human Documents of the Victorian Age&quot;  In it you&#039;ll find as much horror and shock at the &quot;unchurched&quot; underclasses as you could possibly muster today. Many of these documents are transcripts of interviews with child factory workers and the like who have heard the name Jesus but have no idea who he was, or who otherwise display shocking ignorance of England&#039;s state religion. Many Victorian reformers found this ignorance even more disturbing than the appalling material conditions of these workers. To them, the problems of the underclass - prostitution, venereal disease, alcoholism, poor hygiene- were caused by moral failings that could be addressed by Sunday Schools. This seems ridiculous to most people today, because we recognize the economic vise in which the Victorian poor were trapped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chiming in late, but I wanted to say how much I appreciated this article and subseqent comments. For me, many of the comments spoke to how the process of achieving more truth and openness in relationships is so much more complicated than just getting our metaphysical facts straight.<br />
I thought the article was a beautiful contrast to an undercurrent I see in some streams of the "New Atheist" (for lack of a better word) movement: the idea that the forces of reason are beset by "barbarians at the gates" - ignorant aggressors infected by harmful mind viruses, with whom there is no chance of reasonable discussion. Probably some people will vehemently deny that such an undercurrent exists, but I think Serban's comments are a good example of what I mean, though he seems to be saying that it's okay for "those people" to have religion if it keeps them under control.<br />
To Serban - you might want to get hold of a copy of "The Human Documents of the Victorian Age"  In it you'll find as much horror and shock at the "unchurched" underclasses as you could possibly muster today. Many of these documents are transcripts of interviews with child factory workers and the like who have heard the name Jesus but have no idea who he was, or who otherwise display shocking ignorance of England's state religion. Many Victorian reformers found this ignorance even more disturbing than the appalling material conditions of these workers. To them, the problems of the underclass - prostitution, venereal disease, alcoholism, poor hygiene- were caused by moral failings that could be addressed by Sunday Schools. This seems ridiculous to most people today, because we recognize the economic vise in which the Victorian poor were trapped.</p>
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		<title>By: Serban Tanasa</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27552</link>
		<dc:creator>Serban Tanasa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27552</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Ebon. 

&quot;Kicking the Crutches Away&quot; is a very thoughtful article I hadn&#039;t read, and it comes very close to addressing what I &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; have actually asked. That said, I still stand by the comments I made on this page.

Sincerely,
Serban</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Ebon. </p>
<p>"Kicking the Crutches Away" is a very thoughtful article I hadn't read, and it comes very close to addressing what I <i>should</i> have actually asked. That said, I still stand by the comments I made on this page.</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Serban</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27551</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27551</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to briefly address an earlier comment in this thread by C.L. Hanson:

&lt;blockquote&gt;For example, take someone on his death bed who has no possibility of pulling through. Suppose all he wants is some reassurance that he&#039;ll get to see his dead loved ones again (his wife, his son, etc). Is atheism better than false hopes in this case?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I touched on this topic last year, in &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/kicking-the-crutches-away.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kicking the Crutches Away&lt;/a&gt;&quot;. I don&#039;t think we should preach at the bedsides of the dying - that would be rude and disrespectful. On the other hand, if the person&#039;s crisis is caused by his own faith, like a Jehovah&#039;s Witness who&#039;s refusing a blood transfusion, then I think it would be appropriate to try to persuade them to consent to lifesaving treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd like to briefly address an earlier comment in this thread by C.L. Hanson:</p>
<blockquote><p>For example, take someone on his death bed who has no possibility of pulling through. Suppose all he wants is some reassurance that he'll get to see his dead loved ones again (his wife, his son, etc). Is atheism better than false hopes in this case?</p></blockquote>
<p>I touched on this topic last year, in "<a href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/kicking-the-crutches-away.html" rel="nofollow">Kicking the Crutches Away</a>". I don't think we should preach at the bedsides of the dying - that would be rude and disrespectful. On the other hand, if the person's crisis is caused by his own faith, like a Jehovah's Witness who's refusing a blood transfusion, then I think it would be appropriate to try to persuade them to consent to lifesaving treatment.</p>
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