Comments on: On Atheist Janitors http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Fri, 5 Sep 2008 17:12:29 +0000 By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37181 Alex Weaver Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:33:05 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37181 What exactly is the question? What exactly is the question?

]]> By: Virginia http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37148 Virginia Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:39:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37148 I am also looking for input from Ebon on a matter. I believe imbalance relationship, especially those from feudalistic society, for example, like the father deserves more respect then his child and that the father can freely hurt the children's pride/dignity, is no way justifiable -- based on the humanists approach I read so far. Yet religions (organized ones) stipulates the kind of "dividing" people into classes which some get more respect than others (e.g. man over woman, old over young) regardless of the person's deed, objective evidences etc. Is there anything that can shed some light ? I am also looking for input from Ebon on a matter. I believe imbalance relationship, especially those from feudalistic society, for example, like the father deserves more respect then his child and that the father can freely hurt the children's pride/dignity, is no way justifiable -- based on the humanists approach I read so far.
Yet religions (organized ones) stipulates the kind of "dividing" people into classes which some get more respect than others (e.g. man over woman, old over young) regardless of the person's deed, objective evidences etc.
Is there anything that can shed some light ?

]]> By: Virginia http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37147 Virginia Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:30:01 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-37147 I have met with a Christian who said if there's no God, our lives will be meaningless and like wild animals. To which I replied, "You totally leave out your very capability of choice and freethinking in the equation". People do not want to take up the heavy "duty" to search / define meaning of lives by themselves because they are never ever enpowered to do so -- and taught by others not to trust humanity I have met with a Christian who said if there's no God, our lives will be meaningless and like wild animals. To which I replied, "You totally leave out your very capability of choice and freethinking in the equation".

People do not want to take up the heavy "duty" to search / define meaning of lives by themselves because they are never ever enpowered to do so -- and taught by others not to trust humanity

]]> By: meg http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33892 meg Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:05:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33892 As a person on the lower end of the economic scale who has spent many years drudging on the bottom as a certified nursing assistant in a long term care facility, I can assure you as an "average" person atheism is pretty viable. Doing post-mortem care on shriveled, disease ridden bodies is actually pretty condusive to an atheistic point of view!!! Also, I manage to find time to read books and make myself happy. Oh the shock of it all!!! I know I am contributing late to this dicussion, but I felt it needed to be said. As a person on the lower end of the economic scale who has spent many years drudging on the bottom as a certified nursing assistant in a long term care facility, I can assure you as an "average" person atheism is pretty viable. Doing post-mortem care on shriveled, disease ridden bodies is actually pretty condusive to an atheistic point of view!!! Also, I manage to find time to read books and make myself happy. Oh the shock of it all!!! I know I am contributing late to this dicussion, but I felt it needed to be said.

]]> By: c http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33073 c Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:29:31 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-33073 My answer to the argument that atheism makes society collapse is Sweden. Now hear me out before you laugh. Many studies have found Sweden to be the most atheistic country on Earth (about 60-80% depending mostly on definition). Is Sweden a cesspool of crime and violence? In fact, the general trend is that wealthy, developed nations tend to be far more atheistic than nations in deep poverty (with some exceptions like the US and Vietnam). The evidence does not suggest that religious countries are more successful, in fact, it implies the exact opposite. My answer to the argument that atheism makes society collapse is Sweden. Now hear me out before you laugh. Many studies have found Sweden to be the most atheistic country on Earth (about 60-80% depending mostly on definition). Is Sweden a cesspool of crime and violence? In fact, the general trend is that wealthy, developed nations tend to be far more atheistic than nations in deep poverty (with some exceptions like the US and Vietnam). The evidence does not suggest that religious countries are more successful, in fact, it implies the exact opposite.

]]> By: Angie http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27807 Angie Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:27:11 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27807 Same here - arrived late but really appreciate this forum. Same here - arrived late but really appreciate this forum.

]]> By: ZekeCDN http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27805 ZekeCDN Fri, 19 Oct 2007 02:25:03 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27805 It seems I've arrived too late to contribute to this discussion, but I'd still like to pass along my thanks to all of the contributors for a terrific, thought-provoking thread. It seems I've arrived too late to contribute to this discussion, but I'd still like to pass along my thanks to all of the contributors for a terrific, thought-provoking thread.

]]> By: Vicki Baker http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27617 Vicki Baker Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:09:23 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27617 Chiming in late, but I wanted to say how much I appreciated this article and subseqent comments. For me, many of the comments spoke to how the process of achieving more truth and openness in relationships is so much more complicated than just getting our metaphysical facts straight. I thought the article was a beautiful contrast to an undercurrent I see in some streams of the "New Atheist" (for lack of a better word) movement: the idea that the forces of reason are beset by "barbarians at the gates" - ignorant aggressors infected by harmful mind viruses, with whom there is no chance of reasonable discussion. Probably some people will vehemently deny that such an undercurrent exists, but I think Serban's comments are a good example of what I mean, though he seems to be saying that it's okay for "those people" to have religion if it keeps them under control. To Serban - you might want to get hold of a copy of "The Human Documents of the Victorian Age" In it you'll find as much horror and shock at the "unchurched" underclasses as you could possibly muster today. Many of these documents are transcripts of interviews with child factory workers and the like who have heard the name Jesus but have no idea who he was, or who otherwise display shocking ignorance of England's state religion. Many Victorian reformers found this ignorance even more disturbing than the appalling material conditions of these workers. To them, the problems of the underclass - prostitution, venereal disease, alcoholism, poor hygiene- were caused by moral failings that could be addressed by Sunday Schools. This seems ridiculous to most people today, because we recognize the economic vise in which the Victorian poor were trapped. Chiming in late, but I wanted to say how much I appreciated this article and subseqent comments. For me, many of the comments spoke to how the process of achieving more truth and openness in relationships is so much more complicated than just getting our metaphysical facts straight.
I thought the article was a beautiful contrast to an undercurrent I see in some streams of the "New Atheist" (for lack of a better word) movement: the idea that the forces of reason are beset by "barbarians at the gates" - ignorant aggressors infected by harmful mind viruses, with whom there is no chance of reasonable discussion. Probably some people will vehemently deny that such an undercurrent exists, but I think Serban's comments are a good example of what I mean, though he seems to be saying that it's okay for "those people" to have religion if it keeps them under control.
To Serban - you might want to get hold of a copy of "The Human Documents of the Victorian Age" In it you'll find as much horror and shock at the "unchurched" underclasses as you could possibly muster today. Many of these documents are transcripts of interviews with child factory workers and the like who have heard the name Jesus but have no idea who he was, or who otherwise display shocking ignorance of England's state religion. Many Victorian reformers found this ignorance even more disturbing than the appalling material conditions of these workers. To them, the problems of the underclass - prostitution, venereal disease, alcoholism, poor hygiene- were caused by moral failings that could be addressed by Sunday Schools. This seems ridiculous to most people today, because we recognize the economic vise in which the Victorian poor were trapped.

]]> By: Serban Tanasa http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27552 Serban Tanasa Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:43:27 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27552 Thanks, Ebon. "Kicking the Crutches Away" is a very thoughtful article I hadn't read, and it comes very close to addressing what I <i>should</i> have actually asked. That said, I still stand by the comments I made on this page. Sincerely, Serban Thanks, Ebon.

"Kicking the Crutches Away" is a very thoughtful article I hadn't read, and it comes very close to addressing what I should have actually asked. That said, I still stand by the comments I made on this page.

Sincerely,
Serban

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27551 Ebonmuse Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:55:21 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/on-atheist-janitors.html#comment-27551 I'd like to briefly address an earlier comment in this thread by C.L. Hanson: <blockquote>For example, take someone on his death bed who has no possibility of pulling through. Suppose all he wants is some reassurance that he'll get to see his dead loved ones again (his wife, his son, etc). Is atheism better than false hopes in this case?</blockquote> I touched on this topic last year, in "<a href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/03/kicking-the-crutches-away.html" rel="nofollow">Kicking the Crutches Away</a>". I don't think we should preach at the bedsides of the dying - that would be rude and disrespectful. On the other hand, if the person's crisis is caused by his own faith, like a Jehovah's Witness who's refusing a blood transfusion, then I think it would be appropriate to try to persuade them to consent to lifesaving treatment. I'd like to briefly address an earlier comment in this thread by C.L. Hanson:

For example, take someone on his death bed who has no possibility of pulling through. Suppose all he wants is some reassurance that he'll get to see his dead loved ones again (his wife, his son, etc). Is atheism better than false hopes in this case?

I touched on this topic last year, in "Kicking the Crutches Away". I don't think we should preach at the bedsides of the dying - that would be rude and disrespectful. On the other hand, if the person's crisis is caused by his own faith, like a Jehovah's Witness who's refusing a blood transfusion, then I think it would be appropriate to try to persuade them to consent to lifesaving treatment.

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