Comments on: Poetry Sunday: Dirge Without Music http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:17:16 +0000 By: james http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-34256 james Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:15:13 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-34256 I really don't think the poem has anyting to do with denying or beating death or not accepting death as an eventuality. Rather I think it is a beautiful and powerfully worded proclomation that death, although full of grief, is not an end of the person and we should not be so transfixed on the "buriel" of the body and in doing so fully smother the life of the deceased. Instead I think she is saying we should allow for the continued life of the person in cherished thoughts and memories by holding them as precious as we do life itself. It's very soulful and much like Christ's message on the cross. I really don't think the poem has anyting to do with denying or beating death or not accepting death as an eventuality. Rather I think it is a beautiful and powerfully worded proclomation that death, although full of grief, is not an end of the person and we should not be so transfixed on the "buriel" of the body and in doing so fully smother the life of the deceased. Instead I think she is saying we should allow for the continued life of the person in cherished thoughts and memories by holding them as precious as we do life itself. It's very soulful and much like Christ's message on the cross.

]]> By: Jim Baerg http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28952 Jim Baerg Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:26:06 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28952 OK Rob, now I see what variant of the idea you are thinking of. Some SF futures have a way of making a backup of all ones memories & restoring them to a clone if one dies. This variant means that there are two mes, the one at the time of the backup that in effect woke up after unconsciousness & the me that developed from the time of backup to the point of 'death'. The second one is dead even though a very similar me continues. Your variant covers the objection I had. OK Rob, now I see what variant of the idea you are thinking of.

Some SF futures have a way of making a backup of all ones memories & restoring them to a clone if one dies. This variant means that there are two mes, the one at the time of the backup that in effect woke up after unconsciousness & the me that developed from the time of backup to the point of 'death'. The second one is dead even though a very similar me continues.

Your variant covers the objection I had.

]]> By: Rob http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28940 Rob Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:20:30 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28940 Thanks for sharing that Chappell piece. He's witty. That is probably about where I am. I like Daniel Dennett's <u>Consciousness Explained</u>. It share's a lot with Parfit, but he also ties everything together with some very interesting research in cognitive psychology and neuroscience. Dennett is a great writer to boot! I think the important question in this regard is the pragmatic question of "What am I comfortable with?" I see us gradually handing over more and more of the work of our brains to neural prostheses. These devices will not only interface with our individual brains, but also with all other brains (and artificial intelligences) through the internet (or whatever replaces it). When I have the same access to your thoughts and experiences as you do, the question of where I start and you begin starts to lose its meaning. Eventually we will be entirely synthetic and distributed throughout the network. But we will still stand in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Parfit#Self_identity" rel="nofollow">R Relation</a> (to use Parfit's phrase) to our former selves and thus we'll hardly notice or object at each stage in the transformation. I personally don't feel like "I" would be "lost" in the process, but <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=yKt&defl=en&q=define:YMMV&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title" rel="nofollow">YMMV</a>. Thanks for sharing that Chappell piece. He's witty. That is probably about where I am.

I like Daniel Dennett's Consciousness Explained. It share's a lot with Parfit, but he also ties everything together with some very interesting research in cognitive psychology and neuroscience. Dennett is a great writer to boot!

I think the important question in this regard is the pragmatic question of "What am I comfortable with?" I see us gradually handing over more and more of the work of our brains to neural prostheses. These devices will not only interface with our individual brains, but also with all other brains (and artificial intelligences) through the internet (or whatever replaces it). When I have the same access to your thoughts and experiences as you do, the question of where I start and you begin starts to lose its meaning. Eventually we will be entirely synthetic and distributed throughout the network. But we will still stand in R Relation (to use Parfit's phrase) to our former selves and thus we'll hardly notice or object at each stage in the transformation. I personally don't feel like "I" would be "lost" in the process, but YMMV.

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28930 Ebonmuse Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:44:55 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28930 I like <a href="http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/02/personal-identity.html" rel="nofollow">Richard Chappell's take</a> on that question: once we've described all the physical and psychological facts about a situation like that, there's nothing else to discover. The hypothesis "the computer copy actually is me" and the hypothesis "the computer copy is a conscious being exactly like me" are not competing possibilities. There is no further fact that could differentiate between those two. Whether a copy of me really is me isn't a question that can be decided by some suitably careful study of the world, but merely a matter of how we decide the term "me" should be used. I like Richard Chappell's take on that question: once we've described all the physical and psychological facts about a situation like that, there's nothing else to discover. The hypothesis "the computer copy actually is me" and the hypothesis "the computer copy is a conscious being exactly like me" are not competing possibilities. There is no further fact that could differentiate between those two. Whether a copy of me really is me isn't a question that can be decided by some suitably careful study of the world, but merely a matter of how we decide the term "me" should be used.

]]> By: Jim Baerg http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28929 Jim Baerg Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:02:45 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28929 I've read SF stories in which the contents of the human brain can be copied to a computer system. This gets into interesting philosophical dilemmas about the nature of identity. Does it make sense to say the copy is 'me'? I've read SF stories in which the contents of the human brain can be copied to a computer system. This gets into interesting philosophical dilemmas about the nature of identity. Does it make sense to say the copy is 'me'?

]]> By: Rob http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28928 Rob Sun, 02 Dec 2007 04:12:31 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28928 "Actually even if tomorrow a way to stop & reverse aging was discovered, eventually some accident would take out each of us." Yes. Probably true enough, but I don't mean by immortality that my body is somehow going to being preserved and protected like it is for eternity. Eliminating the aging of my meat machine is just a start! Not to sound too new-agey, but I think we are very rapidly evolving (literally, not spititually) towards something greater than what we are now. Our conception of ourselves will change with time in ways we can scarce imagine. Something of me--some continuity, if not identity--will remain. I'm still getting all this clear in my head, but more and more I'm thinking of myself as a cyberneticist. See http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/CYBIMM.html for details if you haven't already written me off as a kook. "Actually even if tomorrow a way to stop & reverse aging was discovered, eventually some accident would take out each of us."

Yes. Probably true enough, but I don't mean by immortality that my body is somehow going to being preserved and protected like it is for eternity. Eliminating the aging of my meat machine is just a start!

Not to sound too new-agey, but I think we are very rapidly evolving (literally, not spititually) towards something greater than what we are now. Our conception of ourselves will change with time in ways we can scarce imagine. Something of me--some continuity, if not identity--will remain. I'm still getting all this clear in my head, but more and more I'm thinking of myself as a cyberneticist. See http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/CYBIMM.html for details if you haven't already written me off as a kook.

]]> By: Jim Baerg http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28844 Jim Baerg Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:35:01 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28844 "I find it sad that so many–even atheists–seem to give in to the idea that death is an inevitability." Actually even if tomorrow a way to stop & reverse aging was discovered, eventually some accident would take out each of us. I would be delighted to have centuries of good physical & mental health to look forward to, even not knowing just how many. "I find it sad that so many–even atheists–seem to give in to the idea that death is an inevitability."

Actually even if tomorrow a way to stop & reverse aging was discovered, eventually some accident would take out each of us. I would be delighted to have centuries of good physical & mental health to look forward to, even not knowing just how many.

]]> By: Rob http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-28843 Rob Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:54:47 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-28843 This is my favorite poem. I must strongly disagree with your interpretation though. You say she is "reluctantly accepting"? Where do you get that? What part of I am NOT resigned don't you get? a I find it sad that so many--even atheists--seem to give in to the idea that death is an inevitability. This may have been the case not so long ago, but I believe escape velocity with regards to death is within our grasp for the first time. We need only dare to hope and commit the resources necessary to find a "cure." Be not resigned! See the Methuselah Mouse Prize at mprize.org for details. This is my favorite poem.

I must strongly disagree with your interpretation though. You say she is "reluctantly accepting"? Where do you get that? What part of I am NOT resigned don't you get?
a
I find it sad that so many--even atheists--seem to give in to the idea that death is an inevitability. This may have been the case not so long ago, but I believe escape velocity with regards to death is within our grasp for the first time. We need only dare to hope and commit the resources necessary to find a "cure." Be not resigned! See the Methuselah Mouse Prize at mprize.org for details.

]]> By: yinyang http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-27854 yinyang Sun, 21 Oct 2007 04:41:31 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-27854 I'm glad I didn't get around to reading this until today. It's fitting. I'm glad I didn't get around to reading this until today. It's fitting.

]]> By: Lynet http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-v.html#comment-27765 Lynet Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:35:15 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/poetry-sunday-dirge-without-music.html#comment-27765 There can be true beauty in tragedy, but actually the thing I like most about this poem is that it -- or parts of it -- can also speak to tragedy where that's <i>not</i> the case, tragedy that is ugly and shattering and wasteful and that won't teach you anything beyond the fact that sometimes you can feel quite unromantically like shit for months or years on end in ways that won't teach you anything beyond the fact that... 'I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned' breaks the cycle of that thought quite nicely :) There can be true beauty in tragedy, but actually the thing I like most about this poem is that it -- or parts of it -- can also speak to tragedy where that's not the case, tragedy that is ugly and shattering and wasteful and that won't teach you anything beyond the fact that sometimes you can feel quite unromantically like shit for months or years on end in ways that won't teach you anything beyond the fact that...

'I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned' breaks the cycle of that thought quite nicely :)

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