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	<title>Comments on: Advice to an Atheist</title>
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		<title>By: Norm Jenson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28454</link>
		<dc:creator>Norm Jenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28454</guid>
		<description>I find  that when conversations involving religion come up as they inevitably do and when asked my opinion I simply say that I&#039;m not a believer, and leave it at that.  If I get questions such as are you an atheist I say yes that a fair description of where I stand.  Further questions are always answered with I don&#039;t see evidence for that and I need good reasons for what I believe.  I don&#039;t argue about it simply stay with a matter of fact I don&#039;t see any reason to believe that and let it go at that. I think that works well with the inlaws, it gives them an opportunity to ask questions if they want or just leave it alone if they choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find  that when conversations involving religion come up as they inevitably do and when asked my opinion I simply say that I'm not a believer, and leave it at that.  If I get questions such as are you an atheist I say yes that a fair description of where I stand.  Further questions are always answered with I don't see evidence for that and I need good reasons for what I believe.  I don't argue about it simply stay with a matter of fact I don't see any reason to believe that and let it go at that. I think that works well with the inlaws, it gives them an opportunity to ask questions if they want or just leave it alone if they choose.</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28441</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28441</guid>
		<description>I went through this thing with my ex- and her family &#039;bout ten years ago.  It wasn&#039;t all that hard, but they were nice folk and I don&#039;t think they had the heart to yell, even if they so desired.  I merely told them I had no faith, and when they asked why, I told them I just didn&#039;t have it, that it wasn&#039;t inside me, and told them I&#039;m fine with them having faith if they understand that I lack it.  They were fine with that and we still happily co-exist seven years after I left their daughter.  Understanding that your situation is quite different, I&#039;d still say that honesty is not only the best policy, it is the only policy, and that to let the fear of intolerance weaken your ethical behavior not only lessens yourself, it also permits that intolerance to remain in your life.  Is that something you really want?  When my sister married a black man [I&#039;m white, and Texan born- and bred] I asked my family members what they thought.  Those who said they&#039;d never talk to him were struck from the list of my family, in my heart.  I don&#039;t need losers who prefer fear to love.  Nor, I submit, do you.  If your wife&#039;s family disown you because you lack faith, that&#039;ll hurt.  But the options?  To live a lie?  To submit?  I don&#039;t know.  These words are mighty easy for me to type, but I&#039;ve always been pretty hard-headed about things.  I guess that wasn&#039;t much in the way of advice.

Regarding her, we agreed not to brainwash my son into either category of thought, and that neither of us would lie to him when he asked the inevitable questions.  Of course, this ceded the battelfield to me.  Instead of crying &quot;there is no god!&quot; at the drop of a hat [which is indeed a form of brainwashing]  I merely made it a habit to question his pronouncements, and answer his questions rationally.  [He may&#039;ve been the only five-year-old in Ventura County who knew what the Rayleigh Effect was].
The pint being is that now, at ten, without being programmed, he has come to understand that rational answers should be pursued, and to say &quot;I don&#039;t know&quot; is  that start of the learning, not the end of it.  His mother lost out because like other Christians, she could not rationally explicate her faith, nor could she answer his questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went through this thing with my ex- and her family 'bout ten years ago.  It wasn't all that hard, but they were nice folk and I don't think they had the heart to yell, even if they so desired.  I merely told them I had no faith, and when they asked why, I told them I just didn't have it, that it wasn't inside me, and told them I'm fine with them having faith if they understand that I lack it.  They were fine with that and we still happily co-exist seven years after I left their daughter.  Understanding that your situation is quite different, I'd still say that honesty is not only the best policy, it is the only policy, and that to let the fear of intolerance weaken your ethical behavior not only lessens yourself, it also permits that intolerance to remain in your life.  Is that something you really want?  When my sister married a black man [I'm white, and Texan born- and bred] I asked my family members what they thought.  Those who said they'd never talk to him were struck from the list of my family, in my heart.  I don't need losers who prefer fear to love.  Nor, I submit, do you.  If your wife's family disown you because you lack faith, that'll hurt.  But the options?  To live a lie?  To submit?  I don't know.  These words are mighty easy for me to type, but I've always been pretty hard-headed about things.  I guess that wasn't much in the way of advice.</p>
<p>Regarding her, we agreed not to brainwash my son into either category of thought, and that neither of us would lie to him when he asked the inevitable questions.  Of course, this ceded the battelfield to me.  Instead of crying "there is no god!" at the drop of a hat [which is indeed a form of brainwashing]  I merely made it a habit to question his pronouncements, and answer his questions rationally.  [He may've been the only five-year-old in Ventura County who knew what the Rayleigh Effect was].<br />
The pint being is that now, at ten, without being programmed, he has come to understand that rational answers should be pursued, and to say "I don't know" is  that start of the learning, not the end of it.  His mother lost out because like other Christians, she could not rationally explicate her faith, nor could she answer his questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28413</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 02:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28413</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It&#039;s far from obvious. It has been said that they &quot;agreed to disagree&quot;, but also that she doesn&#039;t like the husband&#039;s atheistic position. I have no clue whether (or to what extent) the question is important to her.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ya, I don&#039;t know how she feels either; I was basing my uninformed assumption upon this:

I also know that my wife is an intelligent lady, but she knows very little about Atheism or even her own religion. She has simply clung to Christianity because that is what her family believes and that is what she finds comfortable.

&lt;blockquote&gt;But nevertheless my comment was intended more generally, not only to this case.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

To which I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It's far from obvious. It has been said that they "agreed to disagree", but also that she doesn't like the husband's atheistic position. I have no clue whether (or to what extent) the question is important to her.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ya, I don't know how she feels either; I was basing my uninformed assumption upon this:</p>
<p>I also know that my wife is an intelligent lady, but she knows very little about Atheism or even her own religion. She has simply clung to Christianity because that is what her family believes and that is what she finds comfortable.</p>
<blockquote><p>But nevertheless my comment was intended more generally, not only to this case.</p></blockquote>
<p>To which I agree.</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28406</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28406</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In the case of this person, though, it does not sound like religion is very important to this person&#039;s wife.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s far from obvious. It has been said that they &quot;agreed to disagree&quot;, but also that she doesn&#039;t like the husband&#039;s atheistic position. I have no clue whether (or to what extent) the question is important to her. But nevertheless my comment was intended more generally, not only to this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In the case of this person, though, it does not sound like religion is very important to this person's wife.</p></blockquote>
<p>It's far from obvious. It has been said that they "agreed to disagree", but also that she doesn't like the husband's atheistic position. I have no clue whether (or to what extent) the question is important to her. But nevertheless my comment was intended more generally, not only to this case.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28397</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28397</guid>
		<description>prase:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is maybe better to say that those who don&#039;t examine the beliefs  which are important for them  are in some way immature.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, yes, thats true, I&#039;d agree with that. There could be a quibble over whether if someone has an &#039;important&#039; belief, but does not examine it, would we still consider it important? But whatever.

In the case of this person, though, it does not sound like religion is very important to this person&#039;s wife.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>prase:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is maybe better to say that those who don't examine the beliefs  which are important for them  are in some way immature.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, yes, thats true, I'd agree with that. There could be a quibble over whether if someone has an 'important' belief, but does not examine it, would we still consider it important? But whatever.</p>
<p>In the case of this person, though, it does not sound like religion is very important to this person's wife.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28393</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28393</guid>
		<description>Oops, actually meant to say &quot;non-belief&quot;. :-0</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, actually meant to say "non-belief". :-0</p>
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		<title>By: Judy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28388</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28388</guid>
		<description>Ebonmuse, I think the advice you gave him was good. It is how I plan to handle myself if/when the situation arises again in my life where I must let it be known my &quot;disbelief&quot;.

Incidentally, I revealed my atheism to my mother about six months ago (two years after my deconversion), after having listened to her carry on about god&#039;s so-called magnificence for some time. She tried for an hour to dissuade me, using the same lame, illogical junk I&#039;d heard about god all my life. What surprised me was that she didn&#039;t go ballistic, because she loves her god like no other. She was pretty calm with her arguments. Since then, however, I&#039;ve gotten the distinct impression that she thought I was joking, because she continues to talk about religion/god as if we&#039;d never had that brief conversation. I just politely ignore her comments and move on to other topics. I don&#039;t wish to try to change her; that will never happen. I just want her to respect that I don&#039;t believe in gods, understand that nothing she says is ever going to change me back to that useless belief, and to stop talking about religion/god when I&#039;m around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebonmuse, I think the advice you gave him was good. It is how I plan to handle myself if/when the situation arises again in my life where I must let it be known my "disbelief".</p>
<p>Incidentally, I revealed my atheism to my mother about six months ago (two years after my deconversion), after having listened to her carry on about god's so-called magnificence for some time. She tried for an hour to dissuade me, using the same lame, illogical junk I'd heard about god all my life. What surprised me was that she didn't go ballistic, because she loves her god like no other. She was pretty calm with her arguments. Since then, however, I've gotten the distinct impression that she thought I was joking, because she continues to talk about religion/god as if we'd never had that brief conversation. I just politely ignore her comments and move on to other topics. I don't wish to try to change her; that will never happen. I just want her to respect that I don't believe in gods, understand that nothing she says is ever going to change me back to that useless belief, and to stop talking about religion/god when I'm around.</p>
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		<title>By: King Aardvark</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28381</link>
		<dc:creator>King Aardvark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28381</guid>
		<description>Alex: if it&#039;s more WIS than INT, why is WIS the prime requisite for clerics?

Hrmph, the prime requisite for clerics should be CHA, with penalties for high INT and WIS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex: if it's more WIS than INT, why is WIS the prime requisite for clerics?</p>
<p>Hrmph, the prime requisite for clerics should be CHA, with penalties for high INT and WIS.</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28355</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28355</guid>
		<description>It is maybe better to say that those who don&#039;t examine the beliefs &lt;i&gt; which are important for them &lt;/i&gt; are in some way immature. You can&#039;t of course absorbe an infinite amount of information, but if there is something that you are ready to fight for, then you are expected to be well informed about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is maybe better to say that those who don't examine the beliefs <i> which are important for them </i> are in some way immature. You can't of course absorbe an infinite amount of information, but if there is something that you are ready to fight for, then you are expected to be well informed about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28338</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28338</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I said that a lack of interest in learning about the details of the beliefs to which one subscribes, or the details of other beliefs, is a sign of immaturity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not sure if I&#039;d agree with this, because it might mean we are all immature in some way. Surely we have no interest in learning about the details of all our beliefs. We certainly don&#039;t have interest in learning the details of most of our trivial beliefs, so I&#039;ll ignore them. More importantly, however, there are arguably non-trivial beliefs that different people think important to know the details. For example, I believe, for better or worse, that capitalism is the best economic system, even with all of its flaws. However, I am not aware of all the details of this belief; I&#039;m not even sure I could give a coherent description of it or its competetors. Perhaps if I studied the many forms of socialism I would find one that I would think worked better than capitalism (if I could define what a &#039;better&#039; economic system is.) I only have time, however, to thoroughly examine so many belief systems, trivial or not. Does this make me somehow immature? Perhaps, but I think you&#039;ve defined your definiton of immaturity too broadly.

I could interpret it another way, and assume your talking about only that people who have no interest in examining &lt;i&gt;religious&lt;/i&gt; beliefs are immature, but I dont agree with that either. People may grow up atheists or theists without much interest in examining those beliefs, and I don&#039;t think it correct to label them &#039;immature.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I said that a lack of interest in learning about the details of the beliefs to which one subscribes, or the details of other beliefs, is a sign of immaturity.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm not sure if I'd agree with this, because it might mean we are all immature in some way. Surely we have no interest in learning about the details of all our beliefs. We certainly don't have interest in learning the details of most of our trivial beliefs, so I'll ignore them. More importantly, however, there are arguably non-trivial beliefs that different people think important to know the details. For example, I believe, for better or worse, that capitalism is the best economic system, even with all of its flaws. However, I am not aware of all the details of this belief; I'm not even sure I could give a coherent description of it or its competetors. Perhaps if I studied the many forms of socialism I would find one that I would think worked better than capitalism (if I could define what a 'better' economic system is.) I only have time, however, to thoroughly examine so many belief systems, trivial or not. Does this make me somehow immature? Perhaps, but I think you've defined your definiton of immaturity too broadly.</p>
<p>I could interpret it another way, and assume your talking about only that people who have no interest in examining <i>religious</i> beliefs are immature, but I dont agree with that either. People may grow up atheists or theists without much interest in examining those beliefs, and I don't think it correct to label them 'immature.'</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Simmonds</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28337</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Simmonds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28337</guid>
		<description>Hmmm ... There seems to be a lot of good advice here.  Here&#039;s my two cents (a more mechanical approach),
I think I would start by being very specific about what outcomes are okay for you specifically.  Basically determine what you want and what your intention is (and what you want to avoid absolutely).
These next bits are not in any order (just what is coming from my head)...
I would engage in conversation with your wife (and parents) about what they think about atheists.  I would be attempting to make it a sideways conversation (like &quot;I was reading about this guy Mr X who is an atheist and how he is being discriminated against because of his position....&quot;) What you want specifically are the value judgements made in association with atheism or atheists are. &quot;I don&#039;t like them because ...&quot; or &quot;They are ...&quot; and so on.
I would practise doing direct rapport with your wife - like breathing in time with her (or preferably moving another part of your body in time with her breathing - blinking every other breath out, or changing your voice rhythm to match the breathing pattern) in a way that she does not consciously become aware of it.  Put your body in similar positions to hers (also the main idea to to do this without her becoming aware of it).  
Notice any differences in the quality of the conversations you have when you do this and when you don&#039;t.  Keep doing what improves her disposition towards what you are saying.
Discover what her most important values are:  when discussing something asking things like &quot;what about that it important to you...&quot; Keep rapport put questions in relevant context (like &quot;I really like finding about you...&quot; or whatever it appropriate.
Find out what values she has associated with religion.

You could then for instance do your breathing rapport and present information about people who are atheist and match your wife&#039;s values in someway.  You could demonstrate that you match her values in a particular context that are specifically those that atheists aren&#039;t supposed to do.
Basically look for and present counter examples of the negative behaviours she has associated with atheism (you are reworking she believes as regards to atheism).  Present them as non-personal items of interest rather than statements of your position.  Generally better do this with as much rapport as you can arrange.
Over time you should be able to soften the ground and/or find out if her beliefs can ever be compatible with your own.
(sorry very for rambling on ... supposed to be working ;-) )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm ... There seems to be a lot of good advice here.  Here's my two cents (a more mechanical approach),<br />
I think I would start by being very specific about what outcomes are okay for you specifically.  Basically determine what you want and what your intention is (and what you want to avoid absolutely).<br />
These next bits are not in any order (just what is coming from my head)...<br />
I would engage in conversation with your wife (and parents) about what they think about atheists.  I would be attempting to make it a sideways conversation (like "I was reading about this guy Mr X who is an atheist and how he is being discriminated against because of his position....") What you want specifically are the value judgements made in association with atheism or atheists are. "I don't like them because ..." or "They are ..." and so on.<br />
I would practise doing direct rapport with your wife - like breathing in time with her (or preferably moving another part of your body in time with her breathing - blinking every other breath out, or changing your voice rhythm to match the breathing pattern) in a way that she does not consciously become aware of it.  Put your body in similar positions to hers (also the main idea to to do this without her becoming aware of it).<br />
Notice any differences in the quality of the conversations you have when you do this and when you don't.  Keep doing what improves her disposition towards what you are saying.<br />
Discover what her most important values are:  when discussing something asking things like "what about that it important to you..." Keep rapport put questions in relevant context (like "I really like finding about you..." or whatever it appropriate.<br />
Find out what values she has associated with religion.</p>
<p>You could then for instance do your breathing rapport and present information about people who are atheist and match your wife's values in someway.  You could demonstrate that you match her values in a particular context that are specifically those that atheists aren't supposed to do.<br />
Basically look for and present counter examples of the negative behaviours she has associated with atheism (you are reworking she believes as regards to atheism).  Present them as non-personal items of interest rather than statements of your position.  Generally better do this with as much rapport as you can arrange.<br />
Over time you should be able to soften the ground and/or find out if her beliefs can ever be compatible with your own.<br />
(sorry very for rambling on ... supposed to be working ;-) )</p>
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		<title>By: MJJP</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28334</link>
		<dc:creator>MJJP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/advice-to-an-atheist.html#comment-28334</guid>
		<description>Posted too soon. The behaviors you&#039;ve listed are either harmless, attitudes rather than behaviors, or not at all common among atheists except the fictional ones invented as antagonists from the dishonest school of Jack Chick and similar hucksters.

As for &quot;intolerant&quot;, that&#039;s rich coming from the person responsible for much of this comment thread. 

Comment by: Alex Weaver
================
You seem to be awfully sensitive today Alex. You come off here as trying to be mightier than thou but the reality is you again failed to understand what is being written. It is all about perceptions of the atheist and who he is. The sad fact is that what you consider &quot;harmless&quot; most people do not. That is the reality. Atheists are the most despised group in America . There are reasons for it and its not because they are like your everyday neighbor but that is the perception.So get that chip off your shoulder and get a life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Posted too soon. The behaviors you've listed are either harmless, attitudes rather than behaviors, or not at all common among atheists except the fictional ones invented as antagonists from the dishonest school of Jack Chick and similar hucksters.</p>
<p>As for "intolerant", that's rich coming from the person responsible for much of this comment thread. </p>
<p>Comment by: Alex Weaver<br />
================<br />
You seem to be awfully sensitive today Alex. You come off here as trying to be mightier than thou but the reality is you again failed to understand what is being written. It is all about perceptions of the atheist and who he is. The sad fact is that what you consider "harmless" most people do not. That is the reality. Atheists are the most despised group in America . There are reasons for it and its not because they are like your everyday neighbor but that is the perception.So get that chip off your shoulder and get a life.</p>
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