There, now that's out of my system: You're essentially saying that Christianity is the only belief system that makes people immortal? Have I understood you correctly? Because if that's the case, then you've still got to answer OMGF's question about "How do you know you're immortal?", and possibly Thump's point that God, by making us all mortal and then only allowing a few of us to become immortal, is cruel and unworthy of worship. (Especially if we were immortal originally, as Christianity claims.)

You all are making the mistake of confusing Christianity with Islam. Christ doesn't promise to give us air. He gives us air. I'm breathing right now.

What did all the people who lived before Jesus breathe?

I actually have eternal life right now.

You do? How do you know that? First, you'd have to know that you have some sort of eternal soul. Do you have evidence of such? Second, you'd have to know that god exists. How can you possibly know that? Third, you'd have to know that god has chosen you to be "saved" and again, how can you possibly know that?

We don't breath air because that's what jesus wants us to breath; we breath it because it's what and how we evolved to breath; same way plants "breath" Carbon Dioxide, and fish will "drown" without water.

All I hear is "Get used to dying"

"Get used to dying"

"Get used to dying"

We know we're going to die; that's observable. Everything that has lived is dead, and everything, at least so far, has continued that pattern of eventually dying. Call me a cynic, but it seems that we too will eventually die. I guess it's too bad I don't live in fantasy-land where I get to have really great picnics (read sit in heaven and worship) with Jesus for the rest of forever. And that whole dying thing? It's not real - we don't actually die! Same with evolution - we didn't evolve, that's scientific jerk-off crap; jesus made us this way!

Christ doesn't promise to give us air. He gives us air. I'm breathing right now.

Yet another claim made with no evidence. As I promised before, I'm not going to debate points of faith anymore because faith-based thinking doesn't listen to reason or evidence; I'm just going to deny them. You're wrong; we have air to breath because of reasons that don't require a god.

You all are making the mistake of confusing Christianity with Islam

We're not confused; they're both nonsensical religions, making essential many of the same outragous claims with no evidence. The only real difference between the beliefs is over the specific, yet fictional, details.

"Get used to dying"

"Get used to dying"

Anyway, Dawn, you said,

"This may come as a shock, but Christianity is not the first religion to promise "air" to us "drowning" humans, and nothing separates it from the countless hundreds of other deities and their promise of eternal life except the number of believers."

You all are making the mistake of confusing Christianity with Islam. Christ doesn't promise to give us air. He gives us air. I'm breathing right now.

I mean, if you've never breathed before, I won't be able to explain to you what it's like. I actually have eternal life right now.

In a sense, our evanescence lends our experience a beauty it would otherwise lack, much like a beautiful daybreak which compels you to set down your gardening for a moment and look, because you know it will not last. The ennui of an eternal existence seems pretty overlooked by most Christians.

And, Kierk --

To extend your analogy, it is god who removed the air in the first place. I'll turn blue before I worship any deity who'd treat his own creations as sadistically as this one is reputed to have done.

Am I the only one here who realizes that we're all drowning?

How ghastly. No, I don't see myself drowning at all, and I feel sorry for you if you do indeed feel that way. That is part of the hateful teaching of Xianity.

But it's not really a valid expression of what I'm trying to say, since it's viewing a very subjective, personal experience through an objective lens that can't comprehend it at all. Subjectively, it's more like a drowning man reaching for the one thing he sees that can save him.

On what basis do you claim that death is a "very subjective, personal experience"? I would claim that it is an objective, physical phenomenon, and that it is no different for humans than it is for plants or bumblebees (who, as far as I know, neither God nor Jesus offer the chance to enter heaven). The difference is that as a sentient species, we know that we will eventually die -- so, naturally, some frantically search for anything that might possibly let them escape it.

What I am consistently understanding, KC, is that you also share this fear of death. And like most other theists, you pray to be saved by someone you've never met, someone you never will meet, someone who you've only heard about because someone else told you, someone who exists based only on the word of others and a fuzzy feeling you call faith.

Am I the only one here who realizes that we're all drowning? Doomed to die unless we get help? I have this deadly dilemma: "Help! I am in a place with no air! I must breathe!" (That's the dual nature of man) Atheism says: "Get used to dying". Buddhism says: "Learn how not to breathe" Islam says: "Hold your breath and you can have air later".

Only Jesus says, "Here's some air".

This may come as a shock, but Christianity is not the first religion to promise "air" to us "drowning" humans, and nothing separates it from the countless hundreds of other deities and their promise of eternal life except the number of believers.

Otherwise, I agree with your analogy of the drowning man reaching for something to save him -- well, almost. He can't actually see anything that could save him, but he heard on the grapevine that it's there -- it's just invisible.

Great to see you're enjoying a good debate.