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	<title>Comments on: Little-Known Bible Verses VII: Iron Chariots</title>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-69777</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-69777</guid>
		<description>Sure, Jason, it makes sense so long as you define god in such a way that it goes against what just about every Xian believes and goes against the normal omni-max traits that we are told god has.  When you can warp god to fit whatever definition you find convenient at the time, then it&#039;s much easier to argue your way into anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, Jason, it makes sense so long as you define god in such a way that it goes against what just about every Xian believes and goes against the normal omni-max traits that we are told god has.  When you can warp god to fit whatever definition you find convenient at the time, then it's much easier to argue your way into anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Cruikshank</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-69775</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Cruikshank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-69775</guid>
		<description>I agree with Kim, that iron chariots symbolize Israel&#039;s disbelief. Her explanation made perfect sense; however, all the comments following her statement are sarcastic and overly simplified. They don&#039;t hold any serious counter-reasoning, so does this mean that you don&#039;t have any well thought out replies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Kim, that iron chariots symbolize Israel's disbelief. Her explanation made perfect sense; however, all the comments following her statement are sarcastic and overly simplified. They don't hold any serious counter-reasoning, so does this mean that you don't have any well thought out replies?</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65294</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65294</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The bible is a very symbolic book as well and the iron chariots represent rational thinking.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And iron chariots, as the Bible tells us, are more powerful than God. Sounds about right. ;) (Yes, I approved this comment because that line was too hilarious to pass up.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The bible is a very symbolic book as well and the iron chariots represent rational thinking.</p></blockquote>
<p>And iron chariots, as the Bible tells us, are more powerful than God. Sounds about right. ;) (Yes, I approved this comment because that line was too hilarious to pass up.)</p>
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		<title>By: kagerato</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65286</link>
		<dc:creator>kagerato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65286</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;God cannot overcome iron chariots. He would be violating free will to force someone to believe in Him or what He can do. He cannot overcome unbelief.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Say what?  This is no description of God that any Christian I know believes in.  This is God as Tinkerbell.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the rather important doctrine of God being omnipotent.  Whether people believe or pray has no impact at all on God&#039;s power.

It is truly astounding how willing people are to mutate and redefine their supposedly ultimate being in order to reach a predetermined conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>God cannot overcome iron chariots. He would be violating free will to force someone to believe in Him or what He can do. He cannot overcome unbelief.</p></blockquote>
<p>Say what?  This is no description of God that any Christian I know believes in.  This is God as Tinkerbell.</p>
<p>You seem to have conveniently forgotten the rather important doctrine of God being omnipotent.  Whether people believe or pray has no impact at all on God's power.</p>
<p>It is truly astounding how willing people are to mutate and redefine their supposedly ultimate being in order to reach a predetermined conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Baerg</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65282</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Baerg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65282</guid>
		<description>I like this:
http://military-power.net/images/Motivation/iron%20chariots.jpg
A few more on a similar theme can be found by doing a Google image search on &#039;iron chariots</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this:<br />
<a href="http://military-power.net/images/Motivation/iron%20chariots.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://military-power.net/images/Motivation/iron%20chariots.jpg</a><br />
A few more on a similar theme can be found by doing a Google image search on 'iron chariots</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65277</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65277</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...the iron chariots represent rational thinking.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Ummmmm, OK, so you&#039;re saying that god can&#039;t overcome rationality?  Sounds about right.
&lt;blockquote&gt;But God is not rational.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Agreed!
&lt;blockquote&gt;Jesus could do hardly any miracles in his home town due to unbelief.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
He also can&#039;t overcome disbelief.  Awesome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>...the iron chariots represent rational thinking.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ummmmm, OK, so you're saying that god can't overcome rationality?  Sounds about right.</p>
<blockquote><p>But God is not rational.</p></blockquote>
<p>Agreed!</p>
<blockquote><p>Jesus could do hardly any miracles in his home town due to unbelief.</p></blockquote>
<p>He also can't overcome disbelief.  Awesome.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65263</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-65263</guid>
		<description>I believe the problem here is that everyone is ironically interpreting this passage of scripture literally (rationally). The bible is a very symbolic book as well and the iron chariots represent rational thinking. In Joshua 17:18 the people of Joseph are complaining to Joshua that they haven&#039;t been given enough land and that they need more room. So Joshua tells them to take the hill country and clear it and they can have it. Their reply sounds like a whine to me. They say they can&#039;t because they have iron chariots. And Joshua simply replies &quot;You can do it&quot;. It is their belief, which is rational, that they cannot because of the strength of those chariots. That they will be defeated. But God is not rational. He is supernatural. It is not that God cannot overcome iron chariots. It is the refusal of the people to believe in God instead of rationalizing their circumstances and declaring defeat before there is even a battle. If you look up the symbolism of iron in the bible you will see that it represents rational truth. Natural truth. Yes it is true they have the most powerful chariots on earth. But the supernatural truth is that God is bigger than those chariots. Bigger than circumstances or rationale. Jesus could do hardly any miracles in his home town due to unbelief. So in a very real sense God cannot overcome iron chariots. He would be violating free will to force someone to believe in Him or what He can do. He cannot overcome unbelief. Unless in prayer that is specifically asked for such as the man in the new testament that asked Jesus to help him overcome his unbelief. He works within the bounds of free will. If your mind is completely rational, well that really doesn&#039;t leave any room for the irrational (unexplainable). I suppose that would leave miracles out. One would be governed and bound by the limitations of reason. God is not bound by human reasoning. Hence, His ways are higher than ours. One must learn to think like God. Not like a human. This is not rational. 

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

Deuteronomy 20:1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.

Isaiah 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the LORD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the problem here is that everyone is ironically interpreting this passage of scripture literally (rationally). The bible is a very symbolic book as well and the iron chariots represent rational thinking. In Joshua 17:18 the people of Joseph are complaining to Joshua that they haven't been given enough land and that they need more room. So Joshua tells them to take the hill country and clear it and they can have it. Their reply sounds like a whine to me. They say they can't because they have iron chariots. And Joshua simply replies "You can do it". It is their belief, which is rational, that they cannot because of the strength of those chariots. That they will be defeated. But God is not rational. He is supernatural. It is not that God cannot overcome iron chariots. It is the refusal of the people to believe in God instead of rationalizing their circumstances and declaring defeat before there is even a battle. If you look up the symbolism of iron in the bible you will see that it represents rational truth. Natural truth. Yes it is true they have the most powerful chariots on earth. But the supernatural truth is that God is bigger than those chariots. Bigger than circumstances or rationale. Jesus could do hardly any miracles in his home town due to unbelief. So in a very real sense God cannot overcome iron chariots. He would be violating free will to force someone to believe in Him or what He can do. He cannot overcome unbelief. Unless in prayer that is specifically asked for such as the man in the new testament that asked Jesus to help him overcome his unbelief. He works within the bounds of free will. If your mind is completely rational, well that really doesn't leave any room for the irrational (unexplainable). I suppose that would leave miracles out. One would be governed and bound by the limitations of reason. God is not bound by human reasoning. Hence, His ways are higher than ours. One must learn to think like God. Not like a human. This is not rational. </p>
<p>Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.</p>
<p>Deuteronomy 20:1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.</p>
<p>Isaiah 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the LORD</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61125</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61125</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, the Bible doesn&#039;t say not to commit crimes nearly as much as it shows god telling people to do just that. &lt;/blockquote&gt; But if God told people to do it it can&#039;t be a crime can it? After all God is all good right, even when he&#039;s plainly being evil? &#039;Tis a puzzlement and no mistake.

Steve Euthyphro Bowen :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Also, the Bible doesn't say not to commit crimes nearly as much as it shows god telling people to do just that. </p></blockquote>
<p> But if God told people to do it it can't be a crime can it? After all God is all good right, even when he's plainly being evil? 'Tis a puzzlement and no mistake.</p>
<p>Steve Euthyphro Bowen :)</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61124</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61124</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Yes my bias is that the Bible is inerrant.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Doesn&#039;t that open you up to GIGO?
&lt;blockquote&gt;Many just don&#039;t like the answers they find so they dismiss them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Which answers are those?  That we should stone disobedient children or hold slaves or treat women as objects?
&lt;blockquote&gt;God encourages us to seek Him intensely.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
He does this how?
&lt;blockquote&gt;It is clear that the book of Judges was trying to prove God&#039;s supremacy and not disprove it. Focusing on just one line of one verse does not reveal the true meaning.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
How do you know that there was one author considering that many books have many authors?  How do you know that the intent was to prove god&#039;s supremacy and not just to tell a story or tell the history of the people?  If it was to show god&#039;s supremacy, how do you know that it wasn&#039;t an error?  True, one verse won&#039;t reveal the intent, but it can show an error in the story - which you deny can happen since the Bible must be inerrant.
&lt;blockquote&gt;This is why we say the Bible does not contradict itself. If a person thinks one passage says they should go and commit a crime but the rest of scripture states the complete opposite then we are sure the person is misunderstanding and misapplying the passage.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
IOW, you can throw out any passage that you feel doesn&#039;t fit your interpretations of what the Bible is saying.  Also, the Bible doesn&#039;t say not to commit crimes nearly as much as it shows god telling people to do just that.  But, that&#039;s another discussion for another day I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Yes my bias is that the Bible is inerrant.</p></blockquote>
<p>Doesn't that open you up to GIGO?</p>
<blockquote><p>Many just don't like the answers they find so they dismiss them.</p></blockquote>
<p>Which answers are those?  That we should stone disobedient children or hold slaves or treat women as objects?</p>
<blockquote><p>God encourages us to seek Him intensely.</p></blockquote>
<p>He does this how?</p>
<blockquote><p>It is clear that the book of Judges was trying to prove God's supremacy and not disprove it. Focusing on just one line of one verse does not reveal the true meaning.</p></blockquote>
<p>How do you know that there was one author considering that many books have many authors?  How do you know that the intent was to prove god's supremacy and not just to tell a story or tell the history of the people?  If it was to show god's supremacy, how do you know that it wasn't an error?  True, one verse won't reveal the intent, but it can show an error in the story - which you deny can happen since the Bible must be inerrant.</p>
<blockquote><p>This is why we say the Bible does not contradict itself. If a person thinks one passage says they should go and commit a crime but the rest of scripture states the complete opposite then we are sure the person is misunderstanding and misapplying the passage.</p></blockquote>
<p>IOW, you can throw out any passage that you feel doesn't fit your interpretations of what the Bible is saying.  Also, the Bible doesn't say not to commit crimes nearly as much as it shows god telling people to do just that.  But, that's another discussion for another day I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61120</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61120</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Regarding the leukemia thing I haven&#039;t answered it thuroughly because I was told to stay on topic Maybe there is another thread in which I can answer it. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

My point is pertinent; it addresses your implied claim of omnipotence.

Also, it seems to me that The Word of a Perfect Communicator ought not need interpretation.  It also seems to me that  a Perfect Word ought to be immune to mistranslation.  It also occurs to me that a much more efficient way to communicate with one&#039;s followers if one is an omnipotent being is to directly speak to them via telepathy or burning bush or whatnot.  

So yeah, call me unconvinced. You wish me to believe that your god created the entire universe, and yet he cannot even create a clear manifesto?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Regarding the leukemia thing I haven't answered it thuroughly because I was told to stay on topic Maybe there is another thread in which I can answer it. </p></blockquote>
<p>My point is pertinent; it addresses your implied claim of omnipotence.</p>
<p>Also, it seems to me that The Word of a Perfect Communicator ought not need interpretation.  It also seems to me that  a Perfect Word ought to be immune to mistranslation.  It also occurs to me that a much more efficient way to communicate with one's followers if one is an omnipotent being is to directly speak to them via telepathy or burning bush or whatnot.  </p>
<p>So yeah, call me unconvinced. You wish me to believe that your god created the entire universe, and yet he cannot even create a clear manifesto?</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61116</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 23:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61116</guid>
		<description>Relevance to us is the last step.  When we understand the meaning of the text then we go to the question, &quot;how do I apply this to my life?&quot;. Those who go straight to application often mis- apply the passage in question and has led many astray. Relevence is the most subjective part and should be backed up by other passages that bring the same conclusion. This is why we say the Bible does not contradict itself. If a person thinks one passage says they should go and commit a crime but the rest of scripture states the complete opposite then we are sure the person is misunderstanding and misapplying the passage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Relevance to us is the last step.  When we understand the meaning of the text then we go to the question, "how do I apply this to my life?". Those who go straight to application often mis- apply the passage in question and has led many astray. Relevence is the most subjective part and should be backed up by other passages that bring the same conclusion. This is why we say the Bible does not contradict itself. If a person thinks one passage says they should go and commit a crime but the rest of scripture states the complete opposite then we are sure the person is misunderstanding and misapplying the passage.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61113</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-61113</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;ask the question , &quot;what did this mean to the author? Next we ask, &quot;what did this mean to the audience?&quot;.&lt;/blockquote&gt; We are still expected to be an audience if this is God&#039;s word. Relevance to us is...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>ask the question , "what did this mean to the author? Next we ask, "what did this mean to the audience?".</p></blockquote>
<p> We are still expected to be an audience if this is God's word. Relevance to us is...?</p>
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