Comments on: Little-Known Bible Verses VII: Iron Chariots http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:16:49 +0000 By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-40251 OMGF Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:20:20 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-40251 <blockquote>In Scripture, God speaks truth to us in a human way.</blockquote> Isn't this just a fancy way of saying that humans wrote the Bible?

In Scripture, God speaks truth to us in a human way.

Isn't this just a fancy way of saying that humans wrote the Bible?

]]> By: Arch http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-40248 Arch Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:57:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-40248 Once again, this type of thread attacks Scripture through false premises of interpretation. In Scripture, God speaks truth to us in a human way. For anyone interested in knowing more about what the Church teaches regarding revelation, Scripture, and Scriptural interpretation, the Vatican II document "Dei Verbum" is a great place to begin: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html Once again, this type of thread attacks Scripture through false premises of interpretation.

In Scripture, God speaks truth to us in a human way.

For anyone interested in knowing more about what the Church teaches regarding revelation, Scripture, and Scriptural interpretation, the Vatican II document "Dei Verbum" is a great place to begin:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

]]> By: Wilson http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-40236 Wilson Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:10:24 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-40236 What I find more interesting is that the original says: וַיְהִי יְהוָה אֶתיְהוּדָה, וַיֹּרֶשׁ אֶתהָהָר כִּי לֹא לְהוֹרִישׁ אֶתיֹשְׁבֵי הָעֵמֶק, כִּירֶכֶב בַּרְזֶל לָהֶם It clearly refers to the God. There's absolutely no way anyone could mistranslate that as a plural. It must've been intentionally changed for the new editions with a complete disregard towards the original. What I find more interesting is that the original says:
וַיְהִי יְהוָה אֶתיְהוּדָה, וַיֹּרֶשׁ אֶתהָהָר כִּי לֹא לְהוֹרִישׁ אֶתיֹשְׁבֵי הָעֵמֶק, כִּירֶכֶב בַּרְזֶל לָהֶם

It clearly refers to the God. There's absolutely no way anyone could mistranslate that as a plural. It must've been intentionally changed for the new editions with a complete disregard towards the original.

]]> By: Big Jess http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-39017 Big Jess Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:25:36 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-39017 I dont believe in Santa Claus any more either. When everyone around you is saying the same thing, it would be understandable to believe it. However, when one analyzes the facts and uses reason to come to a conclusion, one realizes how ridiculous these stories are. The fact is that these stories are supposed to be God's word and yet there is still countless contradictions. God is omnipotent and the perfect being, so that fact that his work is imperfect suggests that either he isnt or he didnt write it. Which we be a lose-lose situation for theists! I dont believe in Santa Claus any more either. When everyone around you is saying the same thing, it would be understandable to believe it. However, when one analyzes the facts and uses reason to come to a conclusion, one realizes how ridiculous these stories are. The fact is that these stories are supposed to be God's word and yet there is still countless contradictions. God is omnipotent and the perfect being, so that fact that his work is imperfect suggests that either he isnt or he didnt write it. Which we be a lose-lose situation for theists!

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-39001 OMGF Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:32:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-39001 Nowhere in Joshua does it say that they were unable to win against iron chariots when they attempted to take the land. They were worried about the iron chariots, but Joshua convinces them that they are strong and will win (presumably because god is with them). Apparently, they didn't win. <blockquote>However, when the people chose to not have the faith that God could actually do it and when the people let their own fear get the better of them, God let them have their way.</blockquote> Nice to know that god gave us these natural instincts, such as fear, and then refuses to help us when those instincts take over. Of course, we could also view your passage as saying that when things work out, god was helping, and when they don't, god was not helping. How very convenient. Nowhere in Joshua does it say that they were unable to win against iron chariots when they attempted to take the land. They were worried about the iron chariots, but Joshua convinces them that they are strong and will win (presumably because god is with them). Apparently, they didn't win.

However, when the people chose to not have the faith that God could actually do it and when the people let their own fear get the better of them, God let them have their way.

Nice to know that god gave us these natural instincts, such as fear, and then refuses to help us when those instincts take over. Of course, we could also view your passage as saying that when things work out, god was helping, and when they don't, god was not helping. How very convenient.

]]> By: Leah H http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38970 Leah H Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:00:44 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38970 Hi! Actually, even in the KJV, that verse is still not contrary. Judges 1:19 is the quick short version of what happened in Joshua 17:15-18. Joshua tells the people that they are way too big to fit in the little bit of land they are in. They counter by whining about how the people in the valley have iron chariots. Joshua told them that they could do it, however, out of their fear, they made the choice not to (as you can tell by Judges 1:19). When God works, a lot of times He choses to work through people. However, when the people chose to not have the faith that God could actually do it and when the people let their own fear get the better of them, God let them have their way. God was with them, but they ignored that fact and did things their own way instead. That's why they didn't take the valley. Hi!
Actually, even in the KJV, that verse is still not contrary. Judges 1:19 is the quick short version of what happened in Joshua 17:15-18. Joshua tells the people that they are way too big to fit in the little bit of land they are in. They counter by whining about how the people in the valley have iron chariots. Joshua told them that they could do it, however, out of their fear, they made the choice not to (as you can tell by Judges 1:19).
When God works, a lot of times He choses to work through people. However, when the people chose to not have the faith that God could actually do it and when the people let their own fear get the better of them, God let them have their way. God was with them, but they ignored that fact and did things their own way instead. That's why they didn't take the valley.

]]> By: antaresrichard http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38753 antaresrichard Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:13:48 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38753 Well, I guess the inhabitants of the valley were either lucky because God didn't have the the Red Sea handy or the Egyptians were drowned (Exodus 14:28) due to a lack of iron. Hmm, maybe Judah should have called on Superman. Well, I guess the inhabitants of the valley were either lucky because God didn't have the the Red Sea handy or the Egyptians were drowned (Exodus 14:28) due to a lack of iron. Hmm, maybe Judah should have called on Superman.

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38642 Ebonmuse Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:10:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38642 <blockquote>you guys completely took the verse out of context. the belief that God is with someone, for a Christian, is merely saying that the person had a relationship with God.</blockquote> What I find to be far more "out of context" is your unquestioning assumption that 19th-century Christian evangelical theology can be read back into verses from the earliest books of the Old Testament. <blockquote>If the tribe of Judah had a relationship with God, it does not mean that they have the open right and power to go destroy anything they wish.</blockquote> Except that God commands them to do just that - to slaughter the Canaanites and conquer the land - and they were engaged in that mission at the time.

you guys completely took the verse out of context. the belief that God is with someone, for a Christian, is merely saying that the person had a relationship with God.

What I find to be far more "out of context" is your unquestioning assumption that 19th-century Christian evangelical theology can be read back into verses from the earliest books of the Old Testament.

If the tribe of Judah had a relationship with God, it does not mean that they have the open right and power to go destroy anything they wish.

Except that God commands them to do just that - to slaughter the Canaanites and conquer the land - and they were engaged in that mission at the time.

]]> By: mikespeir http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38641 mikespeir Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:07:39 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38641 <blockquote>you guys completely took the verse out of context.</blockquote> Nobody did anything of the kind! That's the natural reading of the verse; indeed, the inevitable reading to anyone not trying to make excuses for it. <blockquote>example: The Lord was with the United States. They were able to drive out the Iraqis in the mountains but were not able to drive out the tanks in the valleys.</blockquote> You've misrepresented the problem. It would be more like this: The Lord was with the United States. They were able to drive out the Shiites in the mountains but were not able to drive the Sunnis out of the valleys, <i>because the Sunnis had tanks</i>.

you guys completely took the verse out of context.

Nobody did anything of the kind! That's the natural reading of the verse; indeed, the inevitable reading to anyone not trying to make excuses for it.

example:
The Lord was with the United States. They were able to drive out the Iraqis in the mountains but were not able to drive out the tanks in the valleys.

You've misrepresented the problem. It would be more like this:

The Lord was with the United States. They were able to drive out the Shiites in the mountains but were not able to drive the Sunnis out of the valleys, because the Sunnis had tanks.

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38640 OMGF Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:06:44 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html#comment-38640 So, John, you admit that your god is pretty impotent? So, John, you admit that your god is pretty impotent?

]]>