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An Impoverished Infinity

In Christian theology, God is presented as the omnipotent creator, able to bring about literally any world it is possible to imagine. His power has no limits, he never suffers from weakness or fatigue, and he possesses the omniscient knowledge necessary to shape the world according to his overarching plan.

Or so Christian apologists say, anyway. Yet when we atheists challenge them with the problem of evil, asking why a benevolent creator would bring about a world where disease and disaster wreak havoc on the innocent, these same apologists often fall back on a very strange defense. They insist that this is the best world God could possibly have created, that natural evil is a regrettable necessity, and that not even infinite power could have made a world where conscious beings like us could exist without also including these undesirable elements.

In the past few weeks, I've had two Christian correspondents make the same argument to me in e-mail. First, one visitor said this:

Take earthquakes, for example. Earthquakes are almost exclusively caused as a result of plate tectonics. Plates move, grind, slip - and the earth shakes as a result. The only alternative is to have a fixed, unmoving crust - plates that cannot move. But scientists have proven that plate tectonics are, in essence, a "necessary evil." Without the movement of the plates, life on earth as we know it could not exist. Therefore, in order to have life, one must accept plate tectonics - and the earthquakes that come with it.

In another example, I asked a Christian correspondent if he believes God could have avoided the need to create Hell by creating human beings who desired above all else to worship God as he requires. My correspondent's response: "There are 5 billion or so examples on this planet that show that what you propose is not possible."

Though neither of my correspondents seemed to notice, their argument effectively demotes God from omnipotence. What they're effectively saying is that God is not powerful enough, or wise enough, to create the world as other than it is. Not even an infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent deity could have engineered a universe with different natural laws or conditions than ours, so as to permit self-aware living beings but exclude earthquakes caused by plate tectonics. This amounts to a claim that it is logically necessary that earthquakes accompany life, in the same way it is logically necessary that triangles have 180 degrees.

Similarly, the second argument amounts to a claim that it is logically impossible for human beings to be any different than we are. Not even God could have created us with different dispositions, different characters, different natures. Human beings as we are, with all our faults and contingent pecularities - our xenophobia, our emotional turmoil, our impulses to lust and violence, our often faulty grasp of cause and effect - are the only sentient creatures that exist anywhere in all the limitless space of possibility. Truly, the infinity of possible worlds must be an impoverished infinity indeed in the theist mind.

Even famous Christian apologists are willing to put sweeping limitations on God's power when theologically convenient. C.S. Lewis did the same thing in The Problem of Pain, claiming that this world is the only one God had the power to create, that he could not have made it any different, and that even God could not think of a way to allow life and free will without also allowing random disaster and catastrophe:

Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself...

...With every advance in our thought the unity of the creative act, and the impossibility of tinkering with the creation as though this or that element of it could have been removed, will become more apparent.

For people who believe in God, these theists don't give him much credit. They presume that God has no more imagination or knowledge than they, and that since they can't think of any world better than our own, then he couldn't either. Like Dr. Pangloss in Voltaire's famous satire Candide, they blithely assume that this must be the best of all possible worlds, not subject to improvement in any way.

Admittedly this conclusion, absurd though it is, is a rational conclusion from their own strained premises. Since Christians start with the assumption that God is all-powerful and good, they logically infer that he would not have created anything less than the best world possible. But this conclusion runs smack into the manifest imperfection of the actual world.

By contrast, atheists who are not bound by theological preconceptions can readily imagine ways in which an omnipotent being could have crafted better worlds than our own. (I listed just a few possibilities last March in "Improving on God's Handiwork"). This may relate to the common theme of fundamentalists fearing sci-fi and fantasy writing - it may well be that the exercise of imagining worlds different from ours is a dangerous path for these believers' tightly circumscribed imaginations to start down.

January 17, 2008, 10:31 pm • Posted in: The LibraryCommentOptions

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156 Comments

I've never understood the argument from design creationists put forth for just this reason. We're "designed" like shit then. The very common examples are all that's needed to show how ridiculous such notions are:

- Swallowing and Breathing through the same tube.
- The process of pregnancy (or "Shoving a watermelon through a hole the size of a lemon").
- The natural birth defects pregnancy is subject to.
- The prostate gland being basically a troublesome, cancer-prone spot for little overall benefit.
- Sex organs and excretory organs located very close together ("a sewer by an amusement park").

Improvements could be made almost anywhere.

Seriously.

And yet many of these same believers will also:

(a) credit God with astonishing miracles (raising the dead, healing the sick with a touch, loaves and fishes, etc.)

(b) use God to explain any currently unexplained phenomenon ("We don't know how this could have happened physically, but God is magic, therefore God can do anything, therefore it must have been God").

I mean, really. Is there some reason natural laws can be violated when it comes to biology (i.e., raising the dead), but not when it comes to geology or psychology? The God who could create the vast infinitude of the universe out of complete non-existence -- the God who could do the apparently impossible and create somethingness out of nothingness -- couldn't create an inhabited planet without plate tectonics?

At least these people are trying to accept physical and scientific reality. At least they accept that the physical world has unshakable laws of cause and effect. They just can't take that extra logical step -- that if this is the only physical world we could possibly have, then God is either non-existent or meaningless.

"a sewer by an amusement park"

Your genitals are not an amusement park, Callandor! They are a holy gift from your Creator, meant for only two purposes: to reproduce, and to test your faith. God has given us a miracle: body parts with the capacity to generate intense, unfathomable joy, but which we must never, ever use unless we want to make babies. Yes, these parts were clearly designed to feel good when you touch them -- but that's the point! God gave them to us to test if we were strong enough not to play with them! They are not a toy! Put that down, do you hear me?

Actually Callandor, a contrary argument would be that an intelligent designer, in order to economize on space, would have certain parts of the anatomy serve more than one purpose.

One observation I like to make against the argument that the Christian God exists and uses seemingly natural phenomena to punish us is that this god seems to be limited by the Earth's geology and climate. New Hampshire recently legalized civil unions for gays. If God was really upset about it, why not have a volcano form in New Hampshire? We would expect New Hamphshire to be struck by an ice storm, but not by a volcano. Likewise, we never see Indonesia get hit with an ice and snow storm. Saudi Arabia never gets hit with a tropical rain storm.

Another theodicy I heard recently was the slightly nonsensical "It's better for God to give us free will, even if that means freedom to do evil, than for God to not give us a choice." I was not convinced by any part of it, although I found it amusing that the apologist insinuated that his god was an anarchist.

To add to Callandor's list: how about the 15-20% of known pregnancies that end in miscarriages? Seems like a bad plan from a god that's supposed to be anti-abortion, eh?

Ebonmuse,

Here we go again, I wish I could write as well as you, but I'll try.

Use your "freethinking" mind. Imagine God as pure love, so pure that you and I would fall on our knees in His presence. A whitenes of inexhaustable brilliance. This all loving entity is all alone(before the universe was). My words are so inadeqaute.
Anyway, the one thing such a pure love does, the main thing is to share, and I mean share fully. A pure love such as God does not simply give his creation lots of food, perfect weather, conditions that offer the total absence of pain, He gives himself.(I use Him here, but there is no gender in His world). Now God tries to explain to Adam what pain is. Adam says,"huh?" Does He kick Adam in the knee? Adam, cries "ouch,now I know what pain is." God says, "not really Adam, do you know what it's like to be hungry, cold, hot, and tired. How about if you lost Eve? What if one of your kids died from a disease?" This could go on and on. Adam is really puzzled. As God said, "he has become one of us knowing good and evil." (paraphrased) How can you truly understand unless you experience the millions of bad things that can happen. Another thing that you have to know is that time doesn't exist in heaven. Time is something we know only by living. Time is totally relevant. We, the human race, Adam, are still eating from the Tree of knowledge, but it in timeless heaven, it has already happened. We are in Hell. God is in Hell, He suffers right along with us. Adam's body, Jesus's body is us, all of us, just some of us don't know it yet.

A challenge to Ebon. Try something here. Ask God, who you don't believe exists, to verify what I have said. It's better for people searching for answers, but as the Bible says, "God is no respector of persons." In other words, what he'll do for me, he'll do for you. If you're fortunate, he'll send a dream when you are asleep. Oh, I know, everybody dreams. You will know, trust me. Be alert that your dream may be witnessed by 2 or 3 within the dream.

I don't know why God chose dreams and visions to reveal Himself. Perhaps it is because we are so busy running around.
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

I would crack-up, if it weren't so serious, that you wake-up in the middle of the night, and say, "oh my God."

by the way, when I first came to your site, your little slogan below the header, "nightime is for dreaming, daytime is for action," caught my eye.
I saaid, wow, there is even some knowledge in an atheist site.

You and others have been most civil, Dutch

"Actually Callandor, a contrary argument would be that an intelligent designer, in order to economize on space, would have certain parts of the anatomy serve more than one purpose."

Indeed, as with the tube for breathing and swallowing. But it wouldn't be intelligent to design such a thing that then has an increased chance of killing the person ;)

On day zero, God was just getting the nerve up to create the universe. "Think of all the things I could make; these brilliant balls of light called stars to look at. Making stars will be so much fun I'll never want to stop. But then I'll make a planet so I have somewhere firm to sit to watch these stars, and I'll make one close to give me a bit more light some of the time. On this planet Ill make this substance called 'water' that would flow off of cliffs to create beautiful things I'd call 'waterfalls.' I could make trees that would be great to sit under while doing nothing in particular; just to sit."

But God got to thinking, wouldn't it be great to share this with something? He loves so much, his love is like a whiteness of inexhaustible brilliance. So He created some animals, some animals for the water and some for the sky, and, of course, some for the land. And God thought for awhile, and thought that it would be great to share the universe with these, but he knew he wouldn't be satisfied with just these. He needed something that could really appreciate his creation; so he created man. And he knew that he would love this man creature most.

Now there was some loose ends to clear up. How would these creatures live? Well, since at least these man creatures would be in His image, they could be like him, and roam the earth all day. But God thought, "that would be boring for them," so he made it so that they would need to breath, drink, and eat. Well, then he thought "How will they know have to breath, eat, and drink?" God made it so that humans always had to breath, and so he used this thing called 'pain' so that they knew they should breath when they for some reason stop breathing. And the same for drinking and eating. God also knew that He didn't want these creatures to live forever on this planet, so He gave them a system that would eventually fail. He added pain here as well so the creatures knew not to do something that was painful, or they would be injured or die before they had to. (As you may infer, God made it possible for the creatures to be injured as well, because they couldn't be exactly like him.) Did pain exist independent of God, and God used it in his creatures, or did God invent pain to use it? I really don't know the answer to this question, but I suppose it doesn't matter either way. God wanted to share this thing called pain, because he wanted to share himself fully. "And besides, without it the creatures wouldn't know when to breath, eat, and drink, or when they were in danger," God thought.

And so he created this world. Then the time came for God to tell the first humans, Adam and Eve, about this world. God told them about the water and the waterfalls, the trees, animals, and the stars. He told them that they must breath, eat, and drink, or else they would feel this thing called pain.

"What's pain?" asked Adam. Got thought about it for awhile, and then walked up to Adam and kicked him in the knee. "Ouch!" Adam exclaimed, thinking to himself at the time "Did God give me that word or did I just make it up? Whatever..." He looked at God and said, "Why did you do that?"

God responded, "To show you what pain was."

"No, not that...why did you give us creatures pain? Could not you of put a signal in our minds, something like a tickle, when we are not breathing, thirst, tired, etc? Why pain? That really hurt!" Eve laughed at him and called him a wimp. Adam turned to her and said "I just got kicked in the knee by an all powerful being, you try that and not complain." Turing back to God, Adam asked again, "Why pain?"

"Pain is necessary as it is to make sure that the creatures, including you, understand that they have to respond when they have these sensations. For example, when you put your hand in a fire do want a tickle or pain?"

"Well, as an answer to that question, I want pain, but must I feel the amount of pain I do? Do I need days of pain from a burn, and possibly unalterable damage, just so I know not to put my hand in a fire? More importantly though, why am I made up in such a way that I need to feel pain at all? Could not of you created me differently so I would not of had to feel pain?"

"Well I don't want you living forever."

"Well, I don't have to live forever, I would just like to live without having to feel this pain thing."

God thought about it for awhile, then remembered that he had to create some more stars. So he mumbled something about sharing himself fully and told Adam and Eve to go eat more fruit.

...

6,007 years later, Suzie Jackson was sleeping in her room in the basement of her house. Her eighth birthday had been that day, and her room was full of new presents, including a new 'High School Musical' lamp on a table next to the door. But the lamp had faulty wiring, and about 3 AM the lamp sparked and started on fire. Suzie awoke with the smell of smoke and a orange glow. Her room was on fire, and the door was blocked. She tried to climb to her window, but her dad had just added new locks to prevent any break ins and she couldn't get them unlocked. It was just a small window at the top of her room as well, and she could barely reach it anyway, standing on a chair. The fire was getting bigger, she was getting hotter and was starting to sweat. She started yelling for her parents, but they didn't respond. The heat was almost to much, and the fire was almost to her. She climbed under her bed, but the fire followed. Her toes were the first to be reached, and quickly her feet and ankles. But she was still alive, and still calling, screaming, for her parents, and then for God. But neither would come. She knew that she was alone, and besides the pain, oh the unbearable pain, this was her last thought. "I'm alone..."

...

God, of course, watched it all (well of course he did, he sees all.) He thought back to that conversation with Adam some 6,000 years ago. "Why do creatures need pain?" he thought to himself. Watching Suzie's room made Him think of this, that there must be surely some better way to keep humans away from fire. But Suzie was with him now, and 'the view of the stars is much better up here anyway,' as he always told me. Comforted by this, he went to a new area and made some more stars.

That, BTW, was a parable for Dutch.

One more thing, I typed some non-gender neutral sentences in the story, like

He needed something that could really appreciate his creation; so he created man. And he knew that he would love this man creature most.

I meant to fix these sentences, but missed a couple. I would have liked the above to read

He needed something that could really appreciate his creation; so he created humans. And he knew that he would love this humanman creature most.

I leave God as 'He' due to convention.

Dutch, did you just rewrite Genesis? Badly?

Are you really saying that this God character wanted to make sure we knew about evil, because he knew we would ultimately be stronger and better people as a result? Then why were we forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? According to your own story, God created evil just for us to experience, then ordered us not to do what was necessary for us to know about it. That's some convoluted thinking for such a being of "pure love" as you have described.

Oh, and "whiteness of inexhaustible brilliance"? Ew. Just...just...ewwwww.....

The strongest dream I ever had was antireligious, Dutch. And when I say strong, I mean I've never felt anything else halfway like it. I mean it's a silly story that I can't speak but in a hushed voice. I mean it quite literally held me hostage so I couldn't wake properly until I knew its meaning.

If, in the depths of your heart, you want to dream God, you will. That's because dreams don't come from anywhere outside. They come from the subconscious.

What would be wrong with making us psychologically incapable of committing sins? Jesus Christ had taught that you ought to amputate parts of your body that make you commit sins. Applying this to free will means that free will has to go, or at least be made incapable of producing sins.

Being incapable of committing sins is something that we expect out of all our technologies; Isaac Asimov was inspired by this to come up with his Three Laws of Robotics:

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Be careful to avoid being literal-minded about its references to "robots"; they apply to tool and technology design in general.

And as to character building, why not program us with all the character we need? That can't be too hard for an omnipotent being.

Applying theodicies to Heaven results in some rather curious conclusions.

Does anyone ever commit sins in Heaven?

And the "greater good" theodicy implies that Heaven will be an absolutely terrible place, something like the Twilight Zone episode "A Nice Place to Visit". In it, a small-time street criminal gets killed and wakes up in a place where he can get everything he ever wanted. Everything. After a while he gets bored and asks what it is like in "the other place". After a while of this, his caretaker informs him that "This is 'the other place'!!!"

I have a feeling it will take a while to respond to all these points, so I'll start from the most recent.

Omnipotent. Can we agree on a working definition for "omnipotent"? Otherwise the discussion of whether or not God is or isn't is going to go nowhere.

It seems like some people here are arguing that a world of automata would have been better. "Psychologically incapable of committing sins?" What sort of life would that be? Do you really consider life as a puppet to be better than a life in which suffering is possible?

"Jesus Christ had taught that you ought to amputate parts of your body that make you commit sins."

That is an example of interpretation, of the sort Christians are so often criticized for; you are interpreting the passage as being meant to be taken literally. It is also an example of cherry-picking. Jesus Christ also taught "love yourself, love your neighbor"; compare which theme gets more attention in Christ's words.

"And as to character building, why not program us with all the character we need? That can't be too hard for an omnipotent being."

Oh, yes it can, if that omnipotent being has given us free will. That would require God going against his own nature, which would imply the all-powerful overcoming the all-powerful.

"Does anyone ever commit sins in Heaven?"

Humans don't.

And the "greater good" theodicy implies that Heaven will be an absolutely terrible place, something like the Twilight Zone episode "A Nice Place to Visit".

Only if you assume that the "greater good" means "getting everything you want." That seems to me to be a rather weak assumption. I think it is also possible to infer that the criminal you reference ended up in Hell, not Heaven..

Very interesting thread. In the world I would create the weather would always be perfect, no one would get sick, we'd have no need to eat (and neither would there be any need for animals to eat each other), and puppies would live forever (I really like puppies).

Randall,

If humans won't sin in heaven, then will they be robots?

Dutch,

Omnipotence (literally, "all power") is power with no limits i.e. unlimited power. Monotheistic religions generally attribute omnipotence only to God.

In the philosophy of most Western monotheistic religions, omnipotence is listed as one of God's characteristics among many, including omniscience, omnipresence, and benevolence.

What sort of life would that be? Do you really consider life as a puppet to be better than a life in which suffering is possible?

Do people suffer in heaven?

Jesus Christ also taught "love yourself, love your neighbor"; compare which theme gets more attention in Christ's words.

Which is why before Jesus existed, everyone hated themselves and their neighbors because no one had ever thought of that before. Same way everyone murdered anyone they saw before the 10 commandments so they could steal their stuff.

That would require God going against his own nature, which would imply the all-powerful overcoming the all-powerful.

You haven't given a single reliable piece of evidence that says god even exists, and now you again claim to know his nature as well? I'd like to know where you keep getting your information from.

Humans don't.

But angels or god does? Doesn't speak well for their character, especially since that would imply angels are lying, stealing, murdering each other, worshipping other gods, having sex outside of heterosexual marriage not intended to make children, not keeping the sabbath holy, not honoring their parents, or things along that vein. I seem to remember never getting an answer as to what heaven was even like anyway.

Only if you assume that the "greater good" means "getting everything you want." That seems to me to be a rather weak assumption. I think it is also possible to infer that the criminal you reference ended up in Hell, not Heaven..

Ah hell, the place of suffering forever. Clearly, crimes such as stealing the latest jeans from the GAP warrant eternal suffering. It seems pretty clear that no one could come up with a better system then that. Suppose half of the family goes to hell and the other half goes to heaven (whatever heaven happens to be), do the two halves of the family miss each other?

Randall,

As has been pointed out numerous times, my free will does not include the ability to fly, the ability to turn into a cat, or the ability to instantly trasport myself to Mars.

Why should it include the ability to hurt others?

Does God have free will?

The 'free will w/hideous pain or we are all ROBOTS!' is the silliest, most vicious apologetic out there. If it wasn't so damaging, it'd be funny.

Dutch, I don't think you can quite grasp just how weird what you wrote sounds if you do not already beleive it. I mean, really, really, really weird.

Great reasoning on why the tiny minds of many theists don't like science fiction. How dare anyone think that man can do anything!!!

oh yes, thanks mrnaglfar for responding to "dutch". The usual glurge from a Christian and well answered by you (BTW, naglfar, like the Norse ship?)

Sorry, obviously this apologetic really pushes my buttons, but...

Randall,

Only if you assume that the "greater good" means "getting everything you want."

Ah, yes. Claiming that a loving, omnipotent god could create a world without people dying in agony, starving, crushed, raped, etc., is equivalent to throwing a hissy fit because we aren't getting everything we want.

Christian love in action.

I actually got this name from a band that seemed to like norse ships ;).

I was in my local cd store ordering a release of there's and the guy who works there started calling me Mr.Naglfar, so I stuck with it.

Life can't exist without plate tectonics, and thus earthquakes, eh?

So, there are plate tectonics and earthquakes in heaven then?

So heaven isn't subject to the same limitations because there is no concept of time in heaven? This begs the question of why an omnipotent god didn't create the universe using the same supposedly perfect model. The concept of a perfect heaven directly contradicts the apologist argument that this is the best world that god possibly could have created.

Perhaps the resolution to these mysteries will come to me in a dream.

So, Randall, Dutch and others....

It seems then that the theist's position has been backed up to where "god" set a series of events in motion and now either hasn't the ability or desire to alter them. Sort of like letting the genie out of the bottle or opening pandora's box. So if that is the scenario and I grant you the supposition that this god exists, I ask: If god, then what?

Since he cannot or will not intercede, the default position would seemingly be to act as if a god does not exist, in the most mutually beneficial way possible. Clearly competing sets of dogmas are not the answer and it is time for ancient ideas to take advantage of evolution just as god has allowed the physical world to do. I think He would want it that way.

There are about eight posts for every mine, so forgive me for brevity and if I miss anything.

"If humans won't sin in heaven, then will they be robots?"

Heaven, as I understand it, is a place where everyone has chosen to completely surrender his or her self-will. That's a free choice. So no.

"Which is why before Jesus existed, everyone hated themselves and their neighbors because no one had ever thought of that before. Same way everyone murdered anyone they saw before the 10 commandments so they could steal their stuff."

Someone mentioned Christ's teachings; I responded with another instance of them. No need for a further response, such as this one.

"You haven't given a single reliable piece of evidence that says god even exists, and now you again claim to know his nature as well? I'd like to know where you keep getting your information from."

For starters, from his Son. But the statement that God cannot contradict himself is basic logic.

"But angels or god does? Doesn't speak well for their character, especially since that would imply angels are lying, stealing, murdering each other, worshipping other gods, having sex outside of heterosexual marriage not intended to make children, not keeping the sabbath holy, not honoring their parents, or things along that vein. I seem to remember never getting an answer as to what heaven was even like anyway."

You're implying far, far more than I said, as well as making generalizations; if one angel, for example, was a sinner, that doesn't say anything about the character of the angels as a whole. I am not an angel, nor am I God; my answers will naturally be somewhat limited. I gave you my answer to your previous question - not having been to Heaven, I can't tell you for certain what it's like. I can tell you what Jesus said about it, what theologians have said about it, and what it must logically be like. I can't give you an eyewitness account.

"Ah hell, the place of suffering forever. Clearly, crimes such as stealing the latest jeans from the GAP warrant eternal suffering. It seems pretty clear that no one could come up with a better system then that. Suppose half of the family goes to hell and the other half goes to heaven (whatever heaven happens to be), do the two halves of the family miss each other?"

Who said that stealing jeans will bring you to Hell? For that matter, who has said that this current world is the best of all possible systems? I would assume that the halves of the family miss each other, but I cannot say for certain. Do you really expect answers to unanswerable questions?

More later.

Ebon: Excellent post like always, and excellent comments.
Dutch and Randall: Answer a simple question: If god can create animals that can regenerate lost limbs: lizards, frogs, etc., then why did he not apply this same principal to his human creations? So we could experience even more suffering, knowing that the lowly animals possess attributes that we could use?
Also, god was "alone" (lonely?), so he created the universe? How long was he lonely? Since he always was, (eternal), then he must have been lonely for a long time. Oh, that's right, he is outside of time. Wait, I'm confusing myself.
And again, please answer this:
Why didn't he give us a primer to explain the universe, mathematics, science...?
Why do we have to figure all this out ourselves?

Randall,

Heaven, as I understand it, is a place where everyone has chosen to completely surrender his or her self-will. That's a free choice. So no.

So the ultimate reward is to give up what god went through all that pain and suffering to give us? That's charming.

Someone mentioned Christ's teachings; I responded with another instance of them. No need for a further response, such as this one.

People talk about christ's teaching as if christ was the first person to ever come up with the ideas; I felt the need to point that out.

For starters, from his Son. But the statement that God cannot contradict himself is basic logic.

I don't believe Jesus was the son of god, and don't even find the evidence for his existance perticularly compelling. I also don't assume that god can't contradict himself and I don't see why that's basic logic; see contradictions in the bible if you believe that book happened to be written by him (like the parable about the ten commandments and the parable about death for breaking laws. I'm sure no one has ever taken that literally). So explain to me why god can't contradict himself, if it's so basic, because I don't see any reason that god would not be able to contradict himself if he's all powerful. Hell, I'm not all powerful and I can do it; imagine that.

You're implying far, far more than I said, as well as making generalizations; if one angel, for example, was a sinner, that doesn't say anything about the character of the angels as a whole. I am not an angel, nor am I God; my answers will naturally be somewhat limited. I gave you my answer to your previous question - not having been to Heaven, I can't tell you for certain what it's like. I can tell you what Jesus said about it, what theologians have said about it, and what it must logically be like. I can't give you an eyewitness account.

You said humans can't sin in heaven (wherever you got that idea from), but you also didn't rule out the possibility that angels can. All I did was list some things considered to be 'sins', I don't see where the unwarranted implications come in. What sins do angels do then and which ones don't they do? You said yourself you have no idea what heaven is like, or what angels are like, or basically no idea about any of it. Maybe angels do have gay sex outside of marriage, maybe they do kill, maybe they do lie and steal. Maybe they don't, and maybe they don't even exist. I don't see any evidence that points one way or the other.

Even further, explainations of what heaven logically must be like? Do tell.

Theologian is a nice way of saying "one who studies nonsense". All any theologian has ever done is speculate, based of course on absolutely no evidence, about things that they have no hope of ever proving. Their most powerful line of reasoning is "it might be true", much like any other set of unfalisiable ideas.

Who said that stealing jeans will bring you to Hell?

Stealing is breaking a commandment, and the bible says those who break commandments go to hell; I don't recall the bible saying people who only steal so much go to hell. So the answer to that question is the bible says it.

Do you really expect answers to unanswerable questions?

For unanswerable questions you seem to have a certain sense of their answers, and it normally involves jesus in some way. I'm questioning the explainations provided.

"As has been pointed out numerous times, my free will does not include the ability to fly, the ability to turn into a cat, or the ability to instantly trasport myself to Mars.

Why should it include the ability to hurt others?"

Because you have the physical capability to do things. You have hands which can draw or paint or type; those hands can also wield a hammer. If you were able to turn into a cat, you would be able to use that to harm other people as well. Free will means doing what you wish with what you have been given; it doesn't mean you have the power or resources to do whatever it is you want.

Wedge:

"Ah, yes. Claiming that a loving, omnipotent god could create a world without people dying in agony, starving, crushed, raped, etc., is equivalent to throwing a hissy fit because we aren't getting everything we want.

Christian love in action."

I was responding to a claim that the "greater good theodicy" of Heaven says that it will be a place where you get everything you want. Perhaps I should have made that clearer?

"The 'free will w/hideous pain or we are all ROBOTS!' is the silliest, most vicious apologetic out there. If it wasn't so damaging, it'd be funny."

Why so silly? God gave us free will, so he cannot prevent us from making evil choices. What is implicitly vicious or ridiculous in that?

I could accept that the ability to harm other humans or to experience pain is a condition of our free will. I could also accept that the physical phenomenon as pain and natural disasters are some kind of contingent necessity involved with the creation of life.

But if those things are true, why would God demand I believe in him or abstain from otherwise harmless sins that involve the minimization of pain/maximization of pleasure: drugs, sex, etc.

If the cost of life is that that life will have free will and experience pain, God should be smart enough to realize the effect those contingencies would have on the life he had created.

Randall,

You avoided the question.

Because you have the physical capability to do things.

I note that you don't mention the psychological capability to do things. Just because I have a hand doesn't mean I automatically must have the psychological ability to beat a child. Having a penis doesn't make someone a rapist.

According to most Christians, we have the mental and physical capacity to do things because human beings were designed and created by God. All you did was reiterate my objection--we were given the capacity, mental and physical, to harm others. Why?

To take one example, not all animals are capable of rape. Why are humans? What valuable free will would be lost if men could not sustain an erection in a violent/non-consensual situation? Or if humans could not connect sexual desire to the desire to cause harm? If humans were incapable of seeing children as sexually appealing? Most don't anyway.

In short, you want to state that free will necessitates ALL of the options which make people hurt each other; there is no logical reason for this.

I was responding to a claim that the "greater good theodicy" of Heaven says that it will be a place where you get everything you want. Perhaps I should have made that clearer?

My mistake. I apologize for misreading you here. Sorry!

Why so silly? God gave us free will, so he cannot prevent us from making evil choices. What is implicitly vicious or ridiculous in that?

Because God also gave us the available choices (if you believe in God in the first place). God selected and created the range of suffering the human body is capable of, God created the environments in which it happens, God laid out the possible evil choices to make. I can come up with different scenarios without reducing humans to robots. I would think your god could do the same.

Or do you believe that when Adam ate the apple, he created the Ebola virus--and God couldn't stop that without totally undoing free will? Why link the physical realities of the entire universe (death, entropy, food chains, viruses, sexual drives, etc.) to a single act of disobedience? Or even multiple acts? What part of free will necessitates the ability to change reality?

Even on an individual level, why should the 'fallen' nature of man necessitate the emotion of greed, or hatred? That has nothing to do with giving people options to choose from in order to make free will possible. People could be tempted to worship the sun, or refuse to go to church on Sunday from laziness or a desire to watch football. They would still, as I understand Christian theology, be rejecting God and therefore exercising free will.

The free will theodicy is silly because it can't be defended without an outrageously stupid either/or fallacy--that either we must have all of the suffering and hideous possibilities existant in the world, or we must be robots.

If you can't see how silly that is, I don't know how to make it clearer.

When teaching children, it is important that they have the freedom to question and explore topics. Is it therefore necessary to give them the freedom to set each other on fire? The Christian argument makes just as little sense.

I call it vicious because I have known more than one person who has, quite literally, put themself through hell trying to deal with the guilt and horror inspired by the idea that 'we' are responsible for all the pain in this world. I call it vicious because it is an illogical stance which helps to perpetuate the idea that the Christian god is not a monster.

If I stop a man from beating his child to death, I am moral. If God stops him, he's making all humans into robots.

Sure.

Maybe an omnipotent God deliberately created an imperfect world. I don't know. If there is a God can we presume to judge him any more than rats or ants can judge us?
Or plants, can they judge animals?
Can the mineral world judge the animal world?
Just some comments.

Maybe an omnipotent God deliberately created an imperfect world. I don't know. If there is a God can we presume to judge him any more than rats or ants can judge us?
Or plants, can they judge animals?
Can the mineral world judge the animal world?
Just some comments.

Works for me. I could believe in a god who insists we don't judge him (if there were any reason to). Without the ability to judge if he's good or evil, you can't decide he is good and worship him. In fact, you might as well act as though he doesn't exist.

Not to gang up on you, Randall, but several other people have asked you this and I'd like to emphasize it:

It seems like some people here are arguing that a world of automata would have been better. "Psychologically incapable of committing sins?" What sort of life would that be?

And yet:

Heaven, as I understand it, is a place where everyone has chosen to completely surrender his or her self-will.

Let's be clear about this: you're saying that people in Heaven have no free will, right? So Heaven will be populated entirely by automata?

I thought this might be relevant. I've always thought free will a bit of an odd concept. Free from what exactly?

From Wikipedia's article on free will, which says a lot of things, but Galen Strawson's point seems most sensible.

According to Strawson, if one is responsible for what one does in a given situation, then one must be responsible for the way one is in certain mental respects. But it is impossible for one to be responsible for the way one is in any respect. This is because in order to be responsible for the way one is in some situation "S", one must have been responsible for the way one was at "S-1". In order to be responsible for the way one was at "S-1", one must have been responsible for the way one was at "S-2", and so on. At some point in the chain, there must have been an act of origination of a new causal chain. But this is impossible. Man cannot create himself or his mental states ex nihilo. This argument entails that free will itself is absurd, but not that it is incompatible with determinism. Strawson calls his own view "pessimism" but it can be classified as hard incompatibilism.

On the existence of evil. See episode 1, note we don't have the power to harm other humans merely with the power of our minds.
http://www.mrdeity.com/

Ha. I'm starting to feel faint looking at all the posts to respond to. I don't even want to think about how many will have built up by the time I get back from the Academy. But let me see...there must be a few I can respond to quickly.

"The concept of a perfect heaven directly contradicts the apologist argument that this is the best world that god possibly could have created."

May I ask how?

"So the ultimate reward is to give up what god went through all that pain and suffering to give us? That's charming."

A better way to put it is that the ultimate reward is to give up all that causes God pain and suffering, namely our decisions not to love.

"But if those things are true, why would God demand I believe in him or abstain from otherwise harmless sins that involve the minimization of pain/maximization of pleasure: drugs, sex, etc."

If these things are true, he wants you to believe in him to maximize your happiness. Those sins you listed aren't harmless. Drugs destroy your body and can influence you to harm others. Premarital sex likewise can harm both you, the other person (or people) and the unwanted children who may result. "Harmless sin" is an oxymoron.

"According to most Christians, we have the mental and physical capacity to do things because human beings were designed and created by God."

Made in his image and likeness, yes. Created with free will and reason, yes. Perfectly designed with an eye to all our unique physical characteristics? That's up for debate.

"In short, you want to state that free will necessitates ALL of the options which make people hurt each other; there is no logical reason for this."

Virtually ANY action or any object can be used for harm. Free will says that you can choose to do evil, but it is nature and the ways in which we have developed that state the specific methods. You seem to be saying that God should have removed all our options to do evil; this also would remove most of our options to do good. At the point at which we are physically and intellectually incapable of evil, we don't exist - or, if we do, we exist as automata.

"Because God also gave us the available choices (if you believe in God in the first place). God selected and created the range of suffering the human body is capable of, God created the environments in which it happens, God laid out the possible evil choices to make."

So if I put a bread knife on the table and you use it to kill someone, I am responsible? Or if I am the person who made the bread knife? What exactly are you suggesting - that God should not have provided us with any choices at all?

"Or do you believe that when Adam ate the apple, he created the Ebola virus–and God couldn't stop that without totally undoing free will? Why link the physical realities of the entire universe (death, entropy, food chains, viruses, sexual drives, etc.) to a single act of disobedience? Or even multiple acts? What part of free will necessitates the ability to change reality?"

I do believe that when Adam ate the apple (as a metaphor for an act of turning against God) that it created a flaw in our human nature. Whether or not this also corrupted the physical realities of the world is a matter of opinion; we can discuss it, if you like, but then I'll be speaking based on my own views, as opposed to any sort of doctrine. One possible explanation is that we as humans were meant to take care of the Earth, and that when we fell we could no longer perform this task adequately.

"Even on an individual level, why should the 'fallen' nature of man necessitate the emotion of greed, or hatred? That has nothing to do with giving people options to choose from in order to make free will possible. People could be tempted to worship the sun, or refuse to go to church on Sunday from laziness or a desire to watch football. They would still, as I understand Christian theology, be rejecting God and therefore exercising free will."

I don't see what you're saying. People have the ability to choose hatred as the opposite of love, or greed as the opposite of charity. These virtues existed before the Fall; the fallen nature of man means that these vices exist as the logical corollary and consequence of certain actions. God could not have removed our option to hate, because we were designed with the capability to love, and therefore also with the capability to *not* love. Whether or not people choose laziness or gluttony is a matter of their individual decision to turn away from God.

"The free will theodicy is silly because it can't be defended without an outrageously stupid either/or fallacy–that either we must have all of the suffering and hideous possibilities existant in the world, or we must be robots."

Before I answer that question: what other options would you propose as being consistent with a benevolent God?

"When teaching children, it is important that they have the freedom to question and explore topics. Is it therefore necessary to give them the freedom to set each other on fire? The Christian argument makes just as little sense."

But you can restrict a child's free will only so long as the child is a child. It would not be right to prevent the child from doing so when the child is an adult; nor would it be right for God to suspend our free will indefinitely.

"I call it vicious because I have known more than one person who has, quite literally, put themself through hell trying to deal with the guilt and horror inspired by the idea that 'we' are responsible for all the pain in this world."

I am sorry. I don't think that we are responsible for all the pain in this world; to do so is to pretend that God has no enemies and that there is not evil in the world. But I do not think it responsible to deny the cruelties and evils and pain caused directly by humans. We are not a kind race.

"If I stop a man from beating his child to death, I am moral. If God stops him, he's making all humans into robots."

Hyperbole. Isn't he making that man into a robot, capable only of doing "good" and only capable of that because of coercion?

"Without the ability to judge if he's good or evil, you can't decide he is good and worship him."

So use the ability and make your decision.

"Let's be clear about this: you're saying that people in Heaven have no free will, right? So Heaven will be populated entirely by automata?"

No. I am saying that Heaven will be populated entirely by people who have chosen complete unselfishness, people who have surrendered their self-will insofar as it is capable of evil. People in Heaven have all chosen perfection; automata have no choices at all.

Randall,

I doubt I will reply again, because I am beginning to question your honesty in trying to understand the arguments being made.

Free will says that you can choose to do evil, but it is nature and the ways in which we have developed that state the specific methods.

So nature is outside of God's control? God did not determine what nature is and what it would do? Our development had nothing to do with the initial conditions he set up (for the sake of argument), was not guided or restricted by the world he created?

You seem to be saying that God should have removed all our options to do evil; this also would remove most of our options to do good. At the point at which we are physically and intellectually incapable of evil, we don't exist - or, if we do, we exist as automata.

No, I'm not saying that. As I clearly stated, the Christian theology gives many examples of 'evil' which do not do harm to others and which are far removed from the horrors that exist in the world. Why would these 'evils' not be sufficient for the exercise of free will?

Why, if evil MUST exist, can it not be restricted to that which only harms the person who acts, and not others? This is the question you are avoiding, apparently on purpose.

Again, if God can do good, and God has free will, and God never desires or does evil, why could he not have made creates with free will, who never desire or do evil, who can do good? Is God an automaton?

Lastly, you seem to be saying that without evil and suffering, we don't exist as humans. Again, does that mean in heaven we would be automata? If not, why does God not create each soul, ask it to abandon its free will and submit to the will of God, and then place it in heaven or eradicate it, according to its answer? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing without the evil and suffering?

You asked me why I consider this a vicious belief, and then go on to state that without the capability for evil, we don't exist except as autonoma. When I ask why the evil can't be limited, you reply that without the ability to choose to rape, hit children, and stab people we aren't human, just automata. I think you answered my question.

So if I put a bread knife on the table and you use it to kill someone, I am responsible? Or if I am the person who made the bread knife? What exactly are you suggesting - that God should not have provided us with any choices at all?

No, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop ignoring my examples and twisting my words. What if our choices were a)using it to cut a reasonable amount of bread for our needs or b)using it to cut way too much bread and waste it? The second is a sin, according to the Catholic church (gluttony). Why is there a need to have the option of killing someone even available? WHY do you continue to insist that it must be all or nothing?

God didn't just create the breadknife. He also created murderous intentions in people, and a human body capable of being hurt. Either God is evil, or he doesn't exist, or he isn't at all as described by Christians.

I don't see what you're saying. People have the ability to choose hatred as the opposite of love, or greed as the opposite of charity. These virtues existed before the Fall; the fallen nature of man means that these vices exist as the logical corollary and consequence of certain actions.

Do you really think that not-love and hatred are the same thing? You cannot imagine a world in which people share with each other as a good thing without there being people in that world who hate and mistreat each other? You cannot imagine doing good, and wanting to do good, without doing evil? What about God?

Before I answer that question: what other options would you propose as being consistent with a benevolent God?

How about a world of people who find delight in choosing to do healthy and intelligent things, and who, although they could cause pain or suffering, don't want to? People with all kinds of choices--to make music or art, discover the cosmos, work on ways to better understand the world, love and raise children? No one would be forcing them to believe one thing or another, to follow God or not, to choose one career path or one family or one truth--so I fail to see how they would be autonoma.

But you can restrict a child's free will only so long as the child is a child. It would not be right to prevent the child from doing so when the child is an adult; nor would it be right for God to suspend our free will indefinitely.

Um, we still prevent people from setting other people on fire when they're adults. It's not suspending their free will, it's limiting it. You seem to have trouble with this concept.

"If I stop a man from beating his child to death, I am moral. If God stops him, he's making all humans into robots."

Hyperbole. Isn't he making that man into a robot, capable only of doing "good" and only capable of that because of coercion?

No, it is not hyperbole. Isn't it part of Christian teaching that wanting to do an evil deed and doing it are equivalent? (He who lusts in his heart, and all that.) So if God stops someone from actually raping a woman, he has saved one person from suffering and allowed the first person free will.

Don't Christians pray daily that God will save them from worldly pains or problems? Do they mean, 'save me, but don't, because suddenly all free will will disappear for some reason'?

In both the old and new testaments, God repeatedly stops people from doing what they want to do and makes them do things they don't want to do. Why did he do this, if free will is so important he won't save a burning child? If he (allegedly) did it for Jonah and Saul and the Pharoah of Egypt, for Ananias and Sapphira and those to whom he sent a deceiving spirit, how can you say that his intervention is forbidden by his nature or the logic of free will? It doesn't make sense even from an internal Christian viewpoint.

"Without the ability to judge if he's good or evil, you can't decide he is good and worship him."

So use the ability and make your decision.

It was a tongue-in-cheek answer to the question posed by Bil. Humor, y'know?

**Again, if God can do good, and God has free will, and God never desires or does evil, why could he not have made creates with free will, who never desire or do evil, who can do good? Is God an automaton?**

I think this would also affect the concept of man created in God's image and likeness. First, can we even say that God has free will? Oftentime, free will seems to be a matter of choosing between two options: in a vague sense, it would be between good and evil. But Christianity often presents God as an entity incapable of choosing evil, or even desiring evil. Therefore, God would never be in a position to "choose" evil, because it's never something God would want to do.

Yet man is made in God's image/likeness, and given free will, which entails the ability to choose evil. Man is made capable of choosing evil, when that's not a capability God possesses. So it would call into question how much "likness" man has, in terms of God.

I also find it interesting that the idea of man created to do only good is the same as man created to be a robot. There are thousands of ways in which to be good.

However, this would also mean that God *deliberatly* did not create man 100% good, or create man to only desire good.

Do you really consider life as a puppet to be better than a life in which suffering is possible?

I'll answer that in a word...yes! If I could choose to be a puppet for under a century and then spend eternity in heaven or choose not to be a puppet for a century and then spend eternity in hell, then I'd have to be an idiot not to choose the former!

"The concept of a perfect heaven directly contradicts the apologist argument that this is the best world that god possibly could have created."

May I ask how?

Randall, stop with the irrational questions. If you really need someone to spell it out for you, here you go:

God created Heaven and Earth. Heaven has no suffering. Earth has suffering. Earth has pleasantness too. Heaven has more pleasantness. The only logical conclusion is that Earth is not the best possible world unless Heaven does not exist.

Please stop being stupid; you can figure this out for yourself.

I am sorry. I don't think that we are responsible for all the pain in this world; to do so is to pretend that God has no enemies and that there is not evil in the world.

From this I take it that you find "the devil made me do it" an appropriate defence.

Drugs destroy your body and can influence you to harm others. Premarital sex likewise can harm both you, the other person (or people) and the unwanted children who may result. "Harmless sin" is an oxymoron.

Drugs are not always harmful; they do not always destroy your body. I have many friends who smoke marijuana (I do, after all, live in Vancouver), but they have never been incited to hurt me, and from all respects the seem to function just fine. Further, I have friends who have had premarital sex. They didn't acquire any diseases nor children. Undeniably, these were sins, but not a single person was harmed. "Harmless sin" is not an oxymoron.

To live one's life in fear of what might happen is idiocy.

I am saying that Heaven will be populated entirely by people who have chosen complete unselfishness, people who have surrendered their self-will insofar as it is capable of evil. People in Heaven have all chosen perfection; automata have no choices at all. (emphasis added)

Virtually ANY action or any object can be used for harm. Free will says that you can choose to do evil, but it is nature and the ways in which we have developed that state the specific methods. You seem to be saying that God should have removed all our options to do evil; this also would remove most of our options to do good. At the point at which we are physically and intellectually incapable of evil, we don't exist - or, if we do, we exist as automata. (emphasis added)

Do I need to explain your weird contradictions here?

Randall,
You've said quite a few times now that you can tell us what heaven must logically be like, yet when asked twice by me and at least by one other person, you have not done so. Is there a reason that you won't do so? Could it be statements like this:

No. I am saying that Heaven will be populated entirely by people who have chosen complete unselfishness, people who have surrendered their self-will insofar as it is capable of evil. People in Heaven have all chosen perfection; automata have no choices at all.

This statement is an explicit admission that it is possible to have free will and not wish to choose evil. This is actually quite a cogent statement against your argument regarding free will.

Of course, free will is contradictory with the idea of an omni-max god, but who's counting?

I also find it odd that Xianity holds that man is incapable of being good. Apparently we have free will, which gives us the ability to commit evil, but we are utterly unable to commit only good. According to Randall's logic, this means that we don't actually have free will, because we can't always choose to be good.

Randall said:

A better way to put it is that the ultimate reward is to give up all that causes God pain and suffering, namely our decisions not to love.

And, Dutch said:

Now God tries to explain to Adam what pain is. Adam says,"huh?" Does He kick Adam in the knee? Adam, cries "ouch,now I know what pain is." God says, "not really Adam, do you know what it's like to be hungry, cold, hot, and tired. How about if you lost Eve? What if one of your kids died from a disease?" This could go on and on. Adam is really puzzled. As God said, "he has become one of us knowing good and evil." (paraphrased) How can you truly understand unless you experience the millions of bad things that can happen.

My question to both of you is this:

How does a perfect, omni-max being experience pain? How does this being experience evil? How does this being experience the "millions of bad things that can happen?" This is contradictory with the notion of an all-powerful god that is all-knowing and perfect.

Hey!
Been away from this thread for awhile, and I come back and a bunch of you are really poking fun at me. It's still better than Christian websites where I am called Satan and other such things. They don't like their cute Christmas story ruined - you know, the little infant Jesus laying in a manger among animals. I quit going to those sites a long time ago.

As for all the posts here, it is obvious that my writing skills are sorely lacking and a comprehension of the love of God is beyond words. I reread my post; I realize it gave you an in - a feeble attempt to try and explain. I also believe that perhaps you are not as "freethinking" as you claim. Like everybody in the world, our fundamental opinions are formed by the time we reach adulthood. Change is difficult.

I will say one thing, I am all for atheists proving that Jesus, Moses, The Apostlles didn't exist. Keep-up the attacks; it's the best thing that could happen for Christianity.

I harbor no ill will and wish you only the best, Dutch

Dutch,

I also believe that perhaps you are not as "freethinking" as you claim. Like everybody in the world, our fundamental opinions are formed by the time we reach adulthood. Change is difficult.

Change is difficult; it's even more difficult when there is absolutely no evidence provided pointing towards the christian set of conclusions.

I will say one thing, I am all for atheists proving that Jesus, Moses, The Apostlles didn't exist. Keep-up the attacks; it's the best thing that could happen for Christianity.

Not sure how many times this has been pointed out in the past, but let's do it again; it's not up to atheists to disprove those people exist, though we can certainly raise our doubts, it's up to the christian to prove not only that they exist, but that they did what they said they did.

Dutch

Been away from this thread for awhile, and I come back and a bunch of you are really poking fun at me.

I asked an honest question. I would like to hear a reply since I've never gotten one to that question.

...and a comprehension of the love of God is beyond words.

If we can not comprehend it, then how do you know what it is?

Of course, I think you mean that we can comprehend it as love, but we can't comprehend the extent of it? We can work with that. How does god show his love? If you believe that this world is hell, then how was it a loving act by god to place us here?

I also believe that perhaps you are not as "freethinking" as you claim.

And you believe this because? From where I sit, we are the ones asking questions, questions that are not answered, except with non-answers that rely on faith and no evidence.

I will say one thing, I am all for atheists proving that Jesus, Moses, The Apostlles didn't exist. Keep-up the attacks; it's the best thing that could happen for Christianity.

Because if we were to prove that Xianity is false, then people would flock to it knowing it's a lie? This is in direct contraposition to the apologetic argument that Xianity must be true because the early adherents would not have died for what they knew was a lie. Interesting.

OMGF,

Sorry, I was getting visitors tonight so I didn't properly address your question.

Yes, it is the extent of His love that is hard to understand. The thing is how can anyone truly comprehend this love - with what can you compare it? The only thing I can say is that in the future, after you check out, you will understand. It's not a cop out, it's just to hard to understand, I don't know the extent of His love.

It would have been great had God simply created Adam and kept Adam from knowing what pain and suffering was like. It would have been easy to put a fence or something around The Tree of Knowledge. It is surmised here and elsewhere that a loving God would not have created this suffering. I really don't know if there was a choice in the matter. Adam would not know how good he had it. Could he have appreciated what he had been given? I will try to find a better way to explain this. I seem to be at a loss of words.
Does it help to know that God is suffering the same things all humanity is suffering, has suffered and will suffer? This is the case. Most Christians don't realize that God is in hell.
No OMGF, you will never prove Christianity as false, what you will succeed in doing is proving that The events portrayed in the Bible didn't happen, at least on this plane. You will actually push Christians in the right direction, not because it is a lie, but to search for thhe truth. Christians are weak right now, in fact, I doubt that many really believe in God's existence. Their divorce rate is just as high as in secular society. Christians pray for miraculous cures for terminally ill people. Why? Going to a church 1 hour per week is hardly enough. Most are weak in The Word.
No OMGF, they would come to know a powerful religion - the revelation Christians will shown will be absolutely mind blowing furthering the strength. It will be a complete denying of earthly(grave) perceived benefits. The knowledge of where we will be after this life will be so real anything we thought we wanted will be no more. No fancy cars, clothes, anything...everyhting goes to alleviate suffering in this world. I heard a line somewhere said by an Amish pastor - I think maybe in the movie "Witness"; he said, "we are not of this world."

Todays mainstream Christianity however is still closer to the truth than atheists and the various religions. The best thing that could happen is that someone really prove the non existence of historical Jesus Christ. Early adherents died believing in Christ, if they didn't understand what we know today, so what, then again, maybe Christ revealed Himself to them, I don't know, and it isn't important. They died believing in Christ. That doesn't prove Christainity - many people died for a belief.

Keep up the good work. I hope to see much more refutations of The Bible, our church grows. Already Bible studies in Arizona, California, Virginia, Florida. Some don't last, studying takes desire the mother of discipline. The paradox is, the more atheists succeed, the more they will come. We've had several familes move here from far away just for the sake of getting togethor; studying and discussing The Bible with like minded people. Not only our church, but at least one other pastor from a megachurch has obtained this knowledge. As atheists you will watch this unfold, maybe not in our lifetime, but soon very soon, The Ressurection has started, and atheists seem to be one of the tools to aid it along. Do not despair, for all is forgiven, in God's lovingkindness we are all the same.

You will never refute The Bible, Dutch

Oh of course, the Bible appears to be refuted here but is irrefutable on 'another plane,' whatever that may be.

But in all seriousness, I have no idea what your talking about here. I'm not even sure why you even call yourself a Christian...in fact, I'm really at a loss of what box I might attempt to fit you into. You say your theology is growing in popularity, so I hope there is some kind of information about what your talking about somewhere online. I would really like to read something, at least so I can understand WTF you are talking about, because right now I'm quite confused...

That being said, of course you can parry the problem of evil by claiming that God is subject to that evil as well. If evil existed before and/or independent of God, then the problem of evil really isn't a problem at all. But that's not what most 'Christians' believe. You have some novel belief, and forgive us for attacking a position you do not hold. However, most Christians cannot parry the problem of evil by saying 'God is in hell.' If God is in hell, so be it. But don't expect us to be able to use our 'freethinking minds' on something we don't, and at this point cannot, understand.

To piggyback on Wedge's point:

So if God stops someone from actually raping a woman, he has saved one person from suffering and allowed the first person free will.

There's always the free will of two people to consider, the free will of the person being raped and the rapist's free will. I have no idea why Christians always side with the rapist's free will and never see it from the victim's perspective.

Dutch,

I'd like to take your argument seriously, but at this point it's fallen into one large emotional appeal. I'll try anyway.

Adam would not know how good he had it. Could he have appreciated what he had been given?

Right, adam didn't know how good he had it, so god took it all away and never gave it back so adam could forever be upset about what he had taken from him. Kind of like the way good parents will take all their children's toys outside and burn them, and never buy them new ones so the kid can understand how good he had it.
I don't think people would understand how good we had it without things likes HIV, Ebola, TB, cancer, gangrene, the flu, herpies, blindess, down syndrome, birth defects, and a near countless list of other diseases and illness.

Does it help to know that God is suffering the same things all humanity is suffering, has suffered and will suffer? This is the case. Most Christians don't realize that God is in hell.

I think most christians don't realize that because it's mentioned exactly.... oh right, no where. How do you know god is suffering, or what he happens to be suffering from, an why he doesn't do something about it; he's had an eternity.

what you will succeed in doing is proving that The events portrayed in the Bible didn't happen, at least on this plane.

Another plane, for which there is zero evidence, zero describtion, zero falisiability, and some place where science is unable to reach, where I doubt you can show a connection to our plane. Basically, where you can't be bothered by that whole "being incorrect" thing.

Going to a church 1 hour per week is hardly enough.

And how often should you go to church; Didn't Jesus say to keep your faith private? I recall hearing something about that.

"we are not of this world."

yet, we seem to clearly be of this world. After all... we're here, born here and die here; how did that get overlooked?

Todays mainstream Christianity however is still closer to the truth than atheists and the various religions.The best thing that could happen is that someone really prove the non existence of historical Jesus Christ.

So the best thing that could happen is someone proving conclusively that Jesus didn't exist, so that more people could realize they're right because the events never happened? It's true because it's absolutely not true? I'm rarely speechless, but you managed it with that impressive reasoning.

The paradox is, the more atheists succeed, the more they will come.

Because they're so sure about being wrong they just know it has to be right?

You will never refute The Bible,

But isn't that what you want? Shouldn't you be trying to refute the bible (not like one needs much help doing that, but it's always appreciated) if you think it will bring more people to your religion?

http://www.russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/free-will-blows.html

Dutch,

Sorry, I was getting visitors tonight so I didn't properly address your question.

That's OK, but you still didn't address it. You said:

Does it help to know that God is suffering the same things all humanity is suffering, has suffered and will suffer? This is the case. Most Christians don't realize that God is in hell.

I asked how this is possible. How is it possible for a perfect, omni-max being to suffer? I submit that it is not possible.

Yes, it is the extent of His love that is hard to understand. The thing is how can anyone truly comprehend this love - with what can you compare it? The only thing I can say is that in the future, after you check out, you will understand. It's not a cop out, it's just to hard to understand, I don't know the extent of His love.

Actually, I do think this is a cop out. We don't need to understand the extent of god's love in order to understand that creating hell was not an act of love. It could not have been, because there is no good that can come of it. Also, I would think that love would come from doing everything in one's power to make things better for the one you love. This is the love I would expect from god. This is the same god that has committed genocide and ordered others to do it. These are not the acts of love and I don't think you can merely wave your hands and dismiss those acts as a misunderstanding.

It is surmised here and elsewhere that a loving God would not have created this suffering. I really don't know if there was a choice in the matter. Adam would not know how good he had it.

The whole OP was about how silly this argument is. Why could god not have given Adam that information without inflicting pain and suffering? Why is an omni-max god constrained by not having choices? This is the point. In order to explain away evil and suffering, you are having to reduce god's power and abilities. So, what else is god incapable of doing?

You will actually push Christians in the right direction, not because it is a lie, but to search for thhe truth. Christians are weak right now, in fact, I doubt that many really believe in God's existence.

If many Xians secretly doubt god's existence, then why do you think they will give up that disbelief if it is shown to them that god really doesn't exist? As Mrnaglfar said, this makes no sense.

No OMGF, they would come to know a powerful religion - the revelation Christians will shown will be absolutely mind blowing furthering the strength.

Why does god not give us all this revelation now? Is that the act of love that you can't understand? I submit to you that it is not love, but rather capriciousness.

Todays mainstream Christianity however is still closer to the truth than atheists and the various religions.

And your evidence for this would be...?

Keep up the good work. I hope to see much more refutations of The Bible, our church grows....You will never refute The Bible, Dutch

Huh?

I don't think people would understand how good we had it without things likes HIV, Ebola, TB, cancer, gangrene, the flu, herpies, blindess, down syndrome, birth defects, and a near countless list of other diseases and illness.

Even assuming for the sake of the argument that "suffering is necessary on Earth but not in Heaven" makes sense: presumably the level of suffering of a reasonably well-off person in a Western nation, with access to medical care, not likely to encounter torture or war, is enough to fulfill God's plan. Many Christians are such people and they must believe that their "sufferings" as a wealthy Westerner adequately prepare them for Heaven, right? (since nobody believes all that stuff Jesus said about wealth, really). So most of the horrible stuff that happens could be prevented without compromising 'God's plan'.

Unless it's so that a world where every person had medical care, plenty of food etc. would not contain enough suffering to fulfill God's plan, but a world where some people do and some don't does?

terrence,
Thank you, that is some funny stuff.

Enough blather already - daylight is for action, so let's take some and boycott God the next time a horrible disaster wipes out the innocent, as the columnist Heather McDonald suggested a few years ago. It might not work, but the "I'm rotten, you're divine syndrome" hasn't worked out too well either.

You will never refute The Bible, Dutch

Christian critical thinking at its finest.

And Dutch is one of the more open-minded believers I've run across. Says a lot.

With regard to Dutch & Co., someone needs to call the Cognitive Dissonance Dept. and let them know we've a conflagration apparently akin to burning magnesium here.

Did I just miss someone mentioning that "God" takes credit in the Bible for all good and evil (see: Isaiah 45:7 and Lamentations 3:37-38 [source]? See also, in reference to "free will", this link. This is why I've more respect for Muslims who state that if evil befalls them it is only because "God" wills it; they seem to understand the ramifications of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present "God" better than most Christians do. Dutch & Co. hardly seem to be able to maintain a stable argument, preferring to fall back on homilies, faith, speculation, vagueness and shrugs. Dutch seems happy to go one step further into the patently bizarre.

Yet there is nothing presented by Dutch & Co. to even slightly raise the most forlorn hope that maybe, somehow, "God" exists, so that the burden of proof, the provision of which is their responsibility, remains to be addressed whatsoever.

Their nonsensical fluff and stern admonition
won't make me a slave to the fear of perdition,
nor aught of the fantasy they are fond of
shall make me believe that their "God" is all "Love".

Dutch,

Two things.

1) You have never answered (in this thread) the questions, DIRECT QUESTIONS, posed by mrnaglfar, Ebon, and OMGF. Why? They are simple and irect, yet you "answer" by using misdirects and ssmoke and mirrors. Wht is it that prevents you from answering directly? What is it you are afraid of?

2) Please excuse my crassness in my wording when I respond to your diatribes...but the only thing I can come up with is...HUH?

There is a problem with the argument that since god gave us free will and therefore he cannot influence our choices between doing good or evil. According to this argument, once god created and imbued free will into humans he limited his own power and can longer be considered omnipotent nor omniscient. These are old arguments and it seems no matter how apologists twist, they continue to butt into the same problem. Pin them down one way and the slip away again only to spout the same tired lines stated another way. Oh well....

Blaine:

According to this argument, once god created and imbued free will into humans he limited his own power and can longer be considered omnipotent nor omniscient.

Well no, because imbuing humans with free will was a choice, a choice that is in his power to rescind. Giving humans free will does not inhibit his power now. That is, there are things he cannot do IF he wants to maintain free will in humans, but nothing logically prevents him from doing these things. So he remains omnipotent/omniscient in this argument.

Doug

Doug,
Although I agree with you that god can choose to not exercise his omnipotence, can god choose to not know everything? I submit that that is logically impossible for an omniscient being, therefore god can not give up his omniscience. Therefore, free will is mutually exclusive to omniscience. (Although it should be noted that there are other problems with free will vs. omniscience and this is just one.)

There are still many other problems with god being omnipotent and omni-benevolent and allowing us to commit such evil or have evil committed upon us by others.

One thing that makes me shudder with absurdity is how much time we all spend arguing and debating "god." It is essentially as if we were debating the non-merits of alchemy with the followers of alchemy. It is as if we have been sucked into an argument which is fallacious IN ITSELF.

I know the necessity for it, but the absurdity of it makes me cringe.

In reading the above, there was one thing I do need to address immediately; the rest will have to wait, on your courtesy, for responses.

"Randall,
You've said quite a few times now that you can tell us what heaven must logically be like, yet when asked twice by me and at least by one other person, you have not done so. Is there a reason that you won't do so?"

The reason is that I have something like twenty or thirty posts to respond to. I'd ask that all of you please keep that in mind as you tell me to "stop being stupid" and begin questioning my honesty; my posts may or may not be lacking, but if they are, I'd like to say that at least part of that comes from the sheer volume I am trying to keep up with. Be patient with me.

And, very quickly:

"I submit that that is logically impossible for an omniscient being, therefore god can not give up his omniscience. Therefore, free will is mutually exclusive to omniscience."

Knowing that someone will do something does not mean that you are making that person do it, or that you are influencing him or her in any way.

Randall,
I understand that you have lots of comments. My bad for being pushy.

Knowing that someone will do something does not mean that you are making that person do it, or that you are influencing him or her in any way.

Can we try something here? Do you agree that god, being omni-max, could write a book that detailed all the thoughts, acts, etc. that you, Randall, would do for the rest of your life? If we can't agree on that, then god is not omnipotent/omniscient, so I'm going to assume that we can proceed.

So, let's say that god writes this book and hands it to you. If you read the book, do you think you'd be able to do or think anything other than what is in the book? Do you still wish to argue that you have free will and that god is omniscient?

Here's another paradox. When god set up the universe, he knew how it would all play out before he even started creating, right? Therefore, he knew that you would do/say/think everything that you do/say/think. Had he created the universe differently, you would do/say/think differently. Still think you have free will?

Randall,
Good post

Lynette,
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruc
Please describe your dream...I would be happy to help you with it - using the Bible of course. The dream is the Gate of Heaven - Gen28:17

others,
God created both good and evil. He suffers the same as we do - He must, as He is omniscient and omnipotent. Jesus said "I and the father are one." Christ's body is in hell(grave)Since as I have said before, we occupy Hell, then God is in Hell.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

OMGF,
You said "Huh?" to my statement that the more you refute the Bible, the more you will drive Christians and seekers to the truth. Let's put it this way. Say you have found definitive proof of the complete falseness of the Flood story(I certainly don't believe we had a worldwide flood that destroyed all living things). Then a Christian has to accept that perhaps that much more of The Bible is myth or he has missed something. As for me, studying The Garden of Eden proved pivotal in starting my quest for knowledge of Him. Atheists could use The garden of Eden as yet another attack on The Bible. Most Christian apologetics says the Garden was destroyed in the flood or God moved it - really! Show me in The Bible. I only want Biblical proofs from fellow Christians. If destroyed in the flood then what does this mean?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is what I mean. Prove things didn't happen on our plane, then Christians, or some of them, will need to search out the truth.

There is no "problem of evil." The only problem is our lack of understanding.

respectfully, Dutch

Dutch,

God created both good and evil. He suffers the same as we do - He must, as He is omniscient and omnipotent.

It is contradictory for a perfect being to suffer. The question was, how is this possible? You have not answered it, only re-asserted that which is under dispute.

Say you have found definitive proof of the complete falseness of the Flood story(I certainly don't believe we had a worldwide flood that destroyed all living things). Then a Christian has to accept that perhaps that much more of The Bible is myth or he has missed something.

And the more that is disproven, the more you think people will flock to that which they know isn't true?

There is no "problem of evil." The only problem is our lack of understanding.

No, there's a big problem of evil, part of which has been pointed out in this thread alone. The Xian god certainly does not act in a manner that displays omni-benevolence.

I begin to suspect that Dutch is a "confounding troll": no matter how cogent or well thought out your responses (or perhaps the more they are so), Dutch's responses will fail to make any real sense. The longer the thread continues, the less sense they will make. This may well be because Dutch simply doesn't have the wherewithal to answer any questions clearly or cogently. The caveat in Dutch's earliest comment that he (? is that established?) is unable to write as well as Ebon, and later apologies for lack of clarity in his responses, only makes me suspect all the more that he is completely out of his depth here and is leaving it up to a wing and a prayer. It is also likely that he is really quite deluded and believes all his "vision quest" stuff.

Hey. Lurker who sincerely enjoys this blog...

I owe Ebonmuse a list of criteria that, if satisifed, would persuade me to abandon theism. No list offered in this area would be complete without a mention of the Problem of Evil, so I would like to suggest it here, let you pile on, and maybe predict the size of fool I may eventually make myself out to be in submitting this list.

I tend to agree that many theodicies on their own are wholly inadequate as comprehensive solutions to the POE. You have effectively criticized free will, soul making, and the best of all worlds theodicies, demonstrating that while they may offer an explanation for limited evil, they are not capable of covering all instances of observed evil.

Nonetheless, it seems to me that atheists should not view the POE as a free pass with which to criticize theism. The philosophic problems for atheist philosophy relating to the POE are formidable, and double where compared with theism since they appear to require solutions offered for not only the existence of evil, but the existence of good as well. I will not bother you with particulars as I assume most here are conversant with the arguments already, and I acknowledge that you may not feel compelled to offer solutions anyway on the basis that atheism does not require a defence.

Simply stated, one of my criteria for the aforementioned list will be for atheism/naturalism/materialism to provide a more satisfactory explanation for the seemingly universal human recognition of good and evil than theism does. I realize this is a bit open at the moment, but I will define more specifically before I submit.

BTW--can atheism/naturalism/materialism be used synonomously or do you recognize distinctions?

"It is contradictory for a perfect being to suffer. The question was, how is this possible? You have not answered it, only re-asserted that which is under dispute."

Why so? Did not Jesus suffer? Did He not say, "father take this cup away from me?" How is this possible? It is possible because of His love. In order for God to share everything(everything, do you hear me), He had to share in all the bad stuff He knows.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

"And the more that is disproven, the more you think people will flock to that which they know isn't true?"
Absolutely, The Garden of Eden, along with other Biblical stories, was a major stumbling block for me. Once I had knowledge of the meaning, I could go farther, otherwise, had I not come upon this truth, I could have given up. People will start saying, either the Bible is false or there is more to it than we know. I suspect, for the time being, most people will of the former. Some however will seek out the real meaning of the Garden of Eden, and so on.

"No, there's a big problem of evil, part of which has been pointed out in this thread alone. The Xian god certainly does not act in a manner that displays omni-benevolence."

How do you explain evil, suffering, pain and death to somebody who has never experienced one second of these. All this person has ever known is perfect health, no aging, no hunger, perfect weather, beautiful scenery. This person has everything he wants, and if he wants, he probably would have no clue what to ask for. He is not hungry, and is extremely comfortable, even if he knew what comfortable was. Try to explain to this mythical person what comfortable means. Does it mean the lack of comfort? You can see how difficult answering that question is; it would lead to other questions. I believe this person would be practically clueless. Walking around without any knowledge. I doubt he would even be able to thank anybody for creating him and his surroundings.

I know my writing isn't that skillful, but I think that perhaps atheists may have trouble thinking abstractly. Are you as freethinking as you claim. It seems all you can say is this Biblical story or that story doesn't add up to the facts - the "facts" as you know them anyway. No, your inability to understand the so-called "problem of evil" is not due to my writing, but rather, I think, is due to your lack being able to use your imagination. Is this due to you thinking only in terms of what you can see, and not what could be possible? Are you so married to your atheist beliefs, that it is not possible to think any other way?

Moody,
"Dutch's responses will fail to make any real sense."

I no longer think it is my writing alone, but your inability to grasp the unseen spiritual realm. You must be able to test it, see it, and verify it before you believe. There are many doubting Thomases. The sad thing is, you can have all that if you only studied the Word in the way I have started to explain. I know that many Christians don't really believe in God, or have serious doubts, but I wonder if the same may be true of atheists.

I hope I have responded more directly to your questions.

Dutch

Dutch,

You said:

"It is contradictory for a perfect being to suffer. The question was, how is this possible? You have not answered it, only re-asserted that which is under dispute."
Why so? Did not Jesus suffer? Did He not say, "father take this cup away from me?" How is this possible? It is possible because of His love. In order for God to share everything(everything, do you hear me), He had to share in all the bad stuff He knows.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

First Dutch, you are using the BIBLE as a source of your "proof" this jesus suffered. The bible as has been shown conclusively is a contradictary and nonsensicla book of myth and hate, and you want to use the bible to prove the CONTENT of the bible? Dutch, have you ever heard of circular reasoning? If not, I suggest you do a quick search on it and rethink your approach.

Second, you ask, in good old english "Did jesus not suffer?" You are asking us if a fictional character suffered to prove a perfect being has suffered as proof that a perfect being necessarily has to suffer to achieve perfection. Why not ask "Did not Harry Potter suffer?" or "Did Spiderman not suffer?" Yes, in the little story books they, all three have suffered. But showing suffering in fictional works doesn't prove anything.

The only "proof" you have for jesus suffering is a 2+ hour film made by a Mad Max anti-semite whihc was essentially a snuff film for apologists.

AND Dutch, in the second example there is MORE circular reasoning. I bet if you look hard enough you can find it.

If my tone is snotty it is because I am tired of watching the intellectual dishonesty from apologists such as yourself while trying to call it intellect and intelligent discourse. Dutch, the emporer has no clothes.

Dutch said: "No, your inability to understand the so-called 'problem of evil' is not due to my writing, but rather, I think, is due to your lack being able to use your imagination."

Here's the thing: I don't have any difficulty understanding the "problem of evil" because I don't think it's some archetypal issue. In other words, I don't actually think it's a "problem". I don't require some long, drawn out explanation of "evil" that relies on a priori thinking. I already know that life is messy. The animals that live on this planet live difficult lives, one and all, unless they are very lucky indeed. Bad decisions are made; selfish impulses sometimes play out to the detriment of others. Sometimes choices lead to heinous, terrible ends. When it comes to humans, those ends are sometimes off the chart in terms of horror. But there's no need to go and call down from the firmament some divine explanation for them. If we look at our close genetic relatives, the apes, we can easily see common, shared, behaviors. If we but look at how life gets by on this planet, we can easily see that morality itself is but a codified expression of our desire to maintain order for ourselves. That which is called immoral is at root something we fear as a destabilizing or otherwise threatening thing. Of course, sometimes what is called immoral is not a bad or "evil" thing per se (e.g., homosexuality), and with the passage of time we begin to let go of the idea that it is. In other cases (e.g., rape, murder) it is obvious why we would consider it immoral for all time, even when the result may be positive (hypothetically, for instance, consider the child of a rape growing up to be a benevolent person who helps many people somehow).

There is no "unseen spiritual realm" required. There is no need for faith in some cosmic order or teleological plan created by some deity whose characteristics are subject to seemingly endless debate. Remove "God" and nothing changes; life goes on just as before. The faith in things unseen is valuable only to those who believe, but they live and die like the rest of us and, so far as I have seen in all my years of life, what they believe in only serves to affect their behavior in some way and to some extent that is determined by their general psychological leaning, place of birth and generation, level of education, etc., etc., etc.

People are indulging this theological conversation, but it's all smoke and mirrors (potentially turning at some point into sound and fury) and doesn't make a lick of difference to the residents of Peru or the memory of Carthage. Frankly, I am curious as to why it is that anyone would think that atheists have a problem explaining "evil" or "good". There is, as we know, no actual Platonic idea/form for either of them. "Good" and "evil" are words applied like labels to events, things, or ideas. There is humanity, and its desire to exist, and its justifications and fears and hopes, along with its often terrible pragmatism in the service of its desires. As Socrates asks in the Phaedrus: "And what is good, Phaedrus, And what is not good -- Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?". Theodicy, like theology, is plainly not needed in this human world, save insofar as it provides entertainment to otherwise unemployable religionists.

"People are indulging this theological conversation, but it's all smoke and mirrors (potentially turning at some point into sound and fury) and doesn't make a lick of difference to the residents of Peru or the memory of Carthage. Frankly, I am curious as to why it is that anyone would think that atheists have a problem explaining "evil" or "good"."

We might just as easily argue that your denial of the utility of theological conversation doesn't make a lick of difference to the residents of Peru or the memory of Carthage. Where does that leave us?

If it is true that good and evil do not exist or are simply labels as you suggest, then I suppose no explanation is necessary. However, your conclusions, though well stated, are mostly that--a series of conclusions with little rationale supporting them. I am curious as well. I would like to know why atheists believe good and evil are only labels, if indeed they do...

MS:

"...a series of conclusions with little rationale supporting them."

Haha! Oh, goodness, but that's rich. Have you been reading Dutch's comments here? I don't mean to be unkind to Dutch or you or your ilk, but the level of a priori rationalizing in some of the theistic comments is astonishing. The apriorism is that the Bible is in any way authoritative here, which has not been demonstrated and is not, additionally, in the eyes of one who believes in it, falsifiable. Mind you, to those concerned with little things like historicity, measurable accuracy, and consistency, the Bible is out for the count.

Anyway, what I said is that "good" and "evil" do not exist as Platonic forms/ideas. I could have also said that I've yet to see "God's Illustrated Design Manual (with Glossary)". You may say that that is merely my opinion, but the onus is on you to disprove my assertions and not the other way around. I will give you this: I cannot falsify your claims, if only because there is no way to rationally address a belief based upon an unfalsifiable authority.

That said, there are certainly reasons to call some things "evil" and others "good", so long as we understand that there is no reason to assume the existence of a cosmic template for either of those appellations. "Evil" is especially prone to having supernatural causes attached to it, and then, as is my experience, there is some sort of reversal of logic whereby it (i.e., the "evil") is said to be in-itself evidence that there is this supernatural cause. I have yet to see, via this expedient, any actual rationale for their being a justification of the supernatural. I have yet to see you or any of the other theists here provide any cogent (let alone persuasive) argument that "evil" or theodicean statements about "evil" are proof of anything.

"I would like to know why atheists believe good and evil are only labels, if indeed they do..."

I do not speak for others, but if I sound as if I am then I am sure someone will disagree with me here if they so choose.

"We might just as easily argue that your denial of the utility of theological conversation doesn't make a lick of difference to the residents of Peru or the memory of Carthage. Where does that leave us?"

I rest my case.

MS,

I am curious as well. I would like to know why atheists believe good and evil are only labels, if indeed they do...

I suppose that depends which atheist you talk to, after all, there is no set of what one must believe in to be an atheist outside of not believing in god. Personally I do indeed believe good and evil are just labels because their definition depends on one's perspective, relative of course to who benefits and who gets harm done to them, as well as intent and degrees of willingness among those involved. The whole matter is something of a spectrum with many, many shades of grey inbetween, which could mark the difference between a religious good and evil that tends to be simply black or white. Situational and societial factors are also an issue, but it's understandable without having to drag some religion or god into it. Matter of fact, by removing god from the discussion, all the sudden things become far simpler to understand.

The theist position, at least in the current popular ones, begin by setting a point as ultimate good (i.e. god) and the further anyone moves from that point, the worse they become. However, this line of reasoning has many problems, the main one being none of them know god even exists, much less if he does, what he's like. Another big part of the issue comes from people using something like the bible or Quran or some other holy book for morals. We always hear things like "Christian teachings are peaceful" or "islam is a religion of peace", or their relative violent counterparts, but none of those statements that take a stand as "this is religion is actually good/bad" are actually correct. The reason is that all the holy books have their share of both violence, hatefullness, and evil, as well as alturism, love, and good, and they can be used to justify anything and disguise the underlying motives under the cover of "god's will". There was a post on this topic somewhere else on the site, though I can't remember where, if someone would like to find it for me.

I may clear that up later if it comes through fuzzy.

Eric,

"First Dutch, you are using the BIBLE as a source of your "proof" this jesus suffered." The bible as has been shown conclusively is a contradictary and nonsensicla book of myth and hate, and you want to use the bible to prove the CONTENT of the bible? Dutch, have you ever heard of circular reasoning? If not, I suggest you do a quick search on it and rethink your approach."

Circular reasoning indeed. I use The Bible because it is under constant attack by atheists who like most Christians think it a historical document. I, in fact every member of our church, use The Bible to interpret itself - I suppose you can call that circular reasoning. Man's interpretation is worthless.
You said, "The bible as has been shown conclusively is a contradictary and nonsensicla book of myth and hate..."
Only in your mind.
"Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
The only thing you have succeeded in "conclusively" is that The Bible is not a historically accurate document, and for that I thank you. You think that settles the matter - far from it.
The premise of this article is "The problem of evil." I have tried to explain why.
All the comments on this thread have one underlining premise that The Biblical stories pertain to our world. I have said many times that is not so. Why do you ignore that? Why?
I suppose if you saw a bearded fellow, claiming to be the Christ, walking on water, you would assure yourselves that it must be a trick. Or what if you saw an actual physical healing, not the false ones you see on TV, but right there in front of your eyes? You are so married to your position, I doubt you would even bother to check things out.
There is so much noise in peoples' daily lives, both nonreligous and religous; they have no time for Him.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God..."

Mel Gibsons movie was boring and stupid. He, like most Christians have no wisdom or understanding.

I harbor no ill will toward anyone on this site and only wish you the best, I mean that, Dutch

Dutch,

All the comments on this thread have one underlining premise that The Biblical stories pertain to our world. I have said many times that is not so. Why do you ignore that? Why?

If they don't pertain to our world why should anyone assume that they have any relevenace to our world? Maybe they happened on a different plane of existance and don't effect things here. Why should anyone assume that things on this different plane, really whatever that happens to be, have any link whatsoever to this one?

And people ignore it because it's making up an answer out of thin air that even most other christians would disagree with you on, but as you said, most christians don't have wisdom or understanding, though I admit I'm curious why you think your explaination is better than their's if you're not using any evidence? Of course, that also implies you have wisdom and understanding of this different plane, which I don't think you do.

I, in fact every member of our church, use The Bible to interpret itself - I suppose you can call that circular reasoning. Man's interpretation is worthless.

Using a book to interpret itself; yes, I could call that circular reasoning. Your interpretation is only worth as much as you can support. If it's not falisfiable then yes, it is worthless. Same as russell's teapot, same as scientology, same as any other religion. Same as the claim that we all just popped into existance this very moment and all our memories are false, same as the bible is actually written by evil satan as a trick to draw people away from being good. It's a purely "but it could be true if you use your imagination" story.

I suppose if you saw a bearded fellow, claiming to be the Christ, walking on water, you would assure yourselves that it must be a trick.

Criss Angel mangaged it, and I don't assume he has any magical powers.

Or what if you saw an actual physical healing, not the false ones you see on TV, but right there in front of your eyes?

I admit, if I saw someone spontaneously regrow a severed arm, or pick up their head from the flood and put it back on