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	<title>Comments on: Book Update</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: bbk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31562</link>
		<dc:creator>bbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31562</guid>
		<description>I'm trying to figure out what the latest revision of Utilitarianism really is.  Ebon seems to have his own version, which I didn't realize until I read through his materials more thoroughly.  I was getting it confused with the other name for regular Utilitarianism... Universal Hedonism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm trying to figure out what the latest revision of Utilitarianism really is.  Ebon seems to have his own version, which I didn't realize until I read through his materials more thoroughly.  I was getting it confused with the other name for regular Utilitarianism... Universal Hedonism.</p>
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		<title>By: Damien R. S.</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31294</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien R. S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 00:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31294</guid>
		<description>Don't if I count as regular enough.  But echoing bbk, "the basis for an atheist's morality" sounds pretty arrogant, compared to "a basis for an atheist's morality".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don't if I count as regular enough.  But echoing bbk, "the basis for an atheist's morality" sounds pretty arrogant, compared to "a basis for an atheist's morality".</p>
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		<title>By: Prof.V.N.K.Kumar (India)</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31096</link>
		<dc:creator>Prof.V.N.K.Kumar (India)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31096</guid>
		<description>Can you send me a copy please ? I have read those 2 earlier write-ups of yours. But as usual,there will be a lot more in this by way of logic, ideas and connections. So please include me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you send me a copy please ? I have read those 2 earlier write-ups of yours. But as usual,there will be a lot more in this by way of logic, ideas and connections. So please include me.</p>
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		<title>By: bbk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31068</link>
		<dc:creator>bbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31068</guid>
		<description>The relevance is that I continually find UU proponents downplaying the existence of other philosophies with regards to atheism.  I'd like to see UU give them a greater mention and approach UU from the standpoint as being one possible philosophy, not &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; philosophy of atheism.  Especially when we are presenting atheism to the theist or to new atheists interested in finding out where to go from here.

Don't get me wrong - Objectivism has a lot of non sequiturs that just leave me scratching my head.  I am drawn to the positive observations Objectivism makes as its premises, but by the time they get to their normative claims, they don't really follow at all from their premises.  But I like Objectivism because at least it makes a concerted effort to only adopt as its premises positive claims that have been clearly demonstrated in science.  UU makes normative claims about human nature in its very premises which as far as I can tell come strictly from the humanities or aesthetics, all of which are subjective.  It's not quite as robust as people seem to think - it's actually quite easy to make very sensible normative claims when you actually started out with normative premises.  It's self-congratulatory. It also makes it easily corrupted when applied to real life social systems, IMO, and we need something better if it's to be more useful than just a mental exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The relevance is that I continually find UU proponents downplaying the existence of other philosophies with regards to atheism.  I'd like to see UU give them a greater mention and approach UU from the standpoint as being one possible philosophy, not <i>the</i> philosophy of atheism.  Especially when we are presenting atheism to the theist or to new atheists interested in finding out where to go from here.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong - Objectivism has a lot of non sequiturs that just leave me scratching my head.  I am drawn to the positive observations Objectivism makes as its premises, but by the time they get to their normative claims, they don't really follow at all from their premises.  But I like Objectivism because at least it makes a concerted effort to only adopt as its premises positive claims that have been clearly demonstrated in science.  UU makes normative claims about human nature in its very premises which as far as I can tell come strictly from the humanities or aesthetics, all of which are subjective.  It's not quite as robust as people seem to think - it's actually quite easy to make very sensible normative claims when you actually started out with normative premises.  It's self-congratulatory. It also makes it easily corrupted when applied to real life social systems, IMO, and we need something better if it's to be more useful than just a mental exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31065</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31065</guid>
		<description>Objectivism is indeed the philosophy of a significant number of atheists.

Having recognized the problem, please help us correct it.

&lt;blockquote&gt; would say that sciences such as economics and biology line up closer to Objectivism in their approach. Economic models traditionally only needed to account for selfish actions. The Ricardian theory of Comparative Advantage is an example. Darwin as well did not rely on altruism to describe natural processes. Neither did Dawkins in The Selfish Gene.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What relevance does any of this have to which ethical system is preferable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Objectivism is indeed the philosophy of a significant number of atheists.</p>
<p>Having recognized the problem, please help us correct it.</p>
<blockquote><p> would say that sciences such as economics and biology line up closer to Objectivism in their approach. Economic models traditionally only needed to account for selfish actions. The Ricardian theory of Comparative Advantage is an example. Darwin as well did not rely on altruism to describe natural processes. Neither did Dawkins in The Selfish Gene.</p></blockquote>
<p>What relevance does any of this have to which ethical system is preferable?</p>
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		<title>By: bbk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31062</link>
		<dc:creator>bbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 06:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31062</guid>
		<description>Objectivism is a philosophy.  Period.  Being wrong doesn't change that.  You can argue about which philosophy is correct, but you can't argue about which one has eminent domain over atheism.  That's nonsensical.  Atheism has no inherent philosophy.

Both UU and Objectivism have insights and thinkers in both frameworks have advanced atheist thinking in general.  Some of the most elegant refutations of religion I have ever read were written by Objectivists.

I would say that sciences such as economics and biology line up closer to Objectivism in their approach.  Economic models traditionally only needed to account for selfish actions.  The Ricardian theory of Comparative Advantage is an example.  Darwin as well did not rely on altruism to describe natural processes.  Neither did Dawkins in The Selfish Gene.  I do agree with the Objectivist critique of UU, what they call the error of frozen abstraction.  UU does take altruism a little too far and substitutes it for ethics itself - as if without altruism, it's not ethics.  Perhaps that's why you fail to recognize Objectivism as a philosophy of many atheists?  Objectivsts after a certain point start to go off the deep end with Libertarian economic ideals, tin foil hats, and perpetual motion machines.

I'm quite happier with the "coldness" of Darwinism over UU and the "selfishness" of economics (real economics that account externalities and public goods, which Objectivists seem to run from) over Objectivism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Objectivism is a philosophy.  Period.  Being wrong doesn't change that.  You can argue about which philosophy is correct, but you can't argue about which one has eminent domain over atheism.  That's nonsensical.  Atheism has no inherent philosophy.</p>
<p>Both UU and Objectivism have insights and thinkers in both frameworks have advanced atheist thinking in general.  Some of the most elegant refutations of religion I have ever read were written by Objectivists.</p>
<p>I would say that sciences such as economics and biology line up closer to Objectivism in their approach.  Economic models traditionally only needed to account for selfish actions.  The Ricardian theory of Comparative Advantage is an example.  Darwin as well did not rely on altruism to describe natural processes.  Neither did Dawkins in The Selfish Gene.  I do agree with the Objectivist critique of UU, what they call the error of frozen abstraction.  UU does take altruism a little too far and substitutes it for ethics itself - as if without altruism, it's not ethics.  Perhaps that's why you fail to recognize Objectivism as a philosophy of many atheists?  Objectivsts after a certain point start to go off the deep end with Libertarian economic ideals, tin foil hats, and perpetual motion machines.</p>
<p>I'm quite happier with the "coldness" of Darwinism over UU and the "selfishness" of economics (real economics that account externalities and public goods, which Objectivists seem to run from) over Objectivism.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31056</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 04:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31056</guid>
		<description>May I?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Petrucio</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31038</link>
		<dc:creator>Petrucio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31038</guid>
		<description>I'm in!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm in!</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31036</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31036</guid>
		<description>*raises hand* 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Just a little remark to nag you... but Universal Utilitarianism isn't the basis of atheist morality, just one of many options. Not judging which one is better or worse, but for example Objectivism is another valid alternative that some atheists subscribe to. Meanwhile I don't fall into either one because I'm not satisfied with either philosophy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Objectivism fails for a number of reasons: even on the level of personal self-interest it fails because it dictates the wrong choice in "prisoner's dilemma" type situations.  Additionally, it would arguably require a superhuman degree of foresight to apply it in a way that would create a stable and functional society, and applying it in that way would arguably be tantamount to adopting some form of Utilitarianism for purely selfish reasons.

As for Universal Utilitarianism, perhaps you should tell Adam why you aren't satisfied with it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*raises hand* </p>
<blockquote><p>Just a little remark to nag you... but Universal Utilitarianism isn't the basis of atheist morality, just one of many options. Not judging which one is better or worse, but for example Objectivism is another valid alternative that some atheists subscribe to. Meanwhile I don't fall into either one because I'm not satisfied with either philosophy.</p></blockquote>
<p>Objectivism fails for a number of reasons: even on the level of personal self-interest it fails because it dictates the wrong choice in "prisoner's dilemma" type situations.  Additionally, it would arguably require a superhuman degree of foresight to apply it in a way that would create a stable and functional society, and applying it in that way would arguably be tantamount to adopting some form of Utilitarianism for purely selfish reasons.</p>
<p>As for Universal Utilitarianism, perhaps you should tell Adam why you aren't satisfied with it?</p>
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		<title>By: penguin factory</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31032</link>
		<dc:creator>penguin factory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/book-update-9.html#comment-31032</guid>
		<description>Hey, I didn't know you were writing a book. I'm a big fan of The Atheism Pages, so I'll be sure to get it when it's complete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I didn't know you were writing a book. I'm a big fan of The Atheism Pages, so I'll be sure to get it when it's complete.</p>
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