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	<title>Comments on: On Torture and "Tribulation Saints"</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: 2-D Man</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29938</link>
		<dc:creator>2-D Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29938</guid>
		<description>I hate to make light of other people's misfortunes, but this quote from the CIA testing article almost made me laugh out loud."The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to make light of other people's misfortunes, but this quote from the CIA testing article almost made me laugh out loud."The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album."</p>
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		<title>By: goyo</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29881</link>
		<dc:creator>goyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29881</guid>
		<description>Also don't forget, that's when the stars fall from heaven and crash into the earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also don't forget, that's when the stars fall from heaven and crash into the earth.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29875</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29875</guid>
		<description>theistscientist, the Left Behind series features a pretribulation Rapture. After it happens, some of the people left behind become born-again Xians and fight the one-world government of the Antichrist, Nicolae Carpathia.

There are several views on when the Rapture will happen relative to the events in the Book of Revelation:
Pretribulation
Midtribulation
Prewrath
Posttribulation

These are subsets of premillennialism, the view that Jesus Christ will rule the Earth for a thousand years after his Second Coming. But there are several views on when JC's Second Coming will happen relative to that happy period:
Premillennial -- JC will rule for 1000 years before he judges everybody
Postmillennial -- a True Xian commonwealth will be set up and it will exist for 1000 years before JC returns and judges everybody
Amillennial -- The "millennium" is really the existence of the Xian Church, without any hint as to when JC will return and judge everybody

And even such odd interpretations as
Preterism -- the events described in the Book of Revelation have already happened, with that book being a symbolic description of them

There's even a Wikipedia article on &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_of_Christian_eschatological_differences" rel="nofollow"&gt;Summary of Christian eschatological differences&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>theistscientist, the Left Behind series features a pretribulation Rapture. After it happens, some of the people left behind become born-again Xians and fight the one-world government of the Antichrist, Nicolae Carpathia.</p>
<p>There are several views on when the Rapture will happen relative to the events in the Book of Revelation:<br />
Pretribulation<br />
Midtribulation<br />
Prewrath<br />
Posttribulation</p>
<p>These are subsets of premillennialism, the view that Jesus Christ will rule the Earth for a thousand years after his Second Coming. But there are several views on when JC's Second Coming will happen relative to that happy period:<br />
Premillennial -- JC will rule for 1000 years before he judges everybody<br />
Postmillennial -- a True Xian commonwealth will be set up and it will exist for 1000 years before JC returns and judges everybody<br />
Amillennial -- The "millennium" is really the existence of the Xian Church, without any hint as to when JC will return and judge everybody</p>
<p>And even such odd interpretations as<br />
Preterism -- the events described in the Book of Revelation have already happened, with that book being a symbolic description of them</p>
<p>There's even a Wikipedia article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_of_Christian_eschatological_differences" rel="nofollow">Summary of Christian eschatological differences</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: theistscientist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29858</link>
		<dc:creator>theistscientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 05:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29858</guid>
		<description>p.s. I thought the "Left Behind" series took the "pre trib" point of view.ie.that beleievers whould be raptured before the tribulation. And revelation seems to suggest that those who refuse the mark of the beast will be swiftly beheaded. A careful reading of revelation shows no exceptions whatsover. The closest historic paralell we have is kind of a combination of the holocaust,nazi death camps,the iron and bamboo gulags, the rape of nanking, the bataan death march all rolled into one. And even then ,revelations says it will be the worst time in history, and so bad , that if God didnt shorten it, no flesh would be left alive. Anti-christ will make Hitler look like the good humor man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. I thought the "Left Behind" series took the "pre trib" point of view.ie.that beleievers whould be raptured before the tribulation. And revelation seems to suggest that those who refuse the mark of the beast will be swiftly beheaded. A careful reading of revelation shows no exceptions whatsover. The closest historic paralell we have is kind of a combination of the holocaust,nazi death camps,the iron and bamboo gulags, the rape of nanking, the bataan death march all rolled into one. And even then ,revelations says it will be the worst time in history, and so bad , that if God didnt shorten it, no flesh would be left alive. Anti-christ will make Hitler look like the good humor man.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29848</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29848</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think those last three lines contain the real position of most believers, with very few taking the position that human psychology alone will protect them from the ravages of torture...

Restricting one's discussion to the latter extreme is like disputing the physical ascension of Jesus into heaven by showing how Newtonian mechanics demonstrate that human beings can't fly, and then tacking "maybe they believe something SUPERNATURAL happened..." onto the end.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's a perfectly fair point, Eunomiac, and of course it's not an argument that I can disprove. Maybe Jesus will give his end-times followers supernatural power to withstand torture indefinitely. I'm not aware of any evidence of such a thing ever happening in human history, but I can't prove absolutely that it won't happen. (Although as an aside: Isn't this basically saying that God will permit his own followers to be tortured, but at the same time take away their ability to yield to their torturers' wishes so they have no way of stopping it? Yikes. I suppose that's consistent with the copious scriptural evidence that depicts the Christian deity as a sadist, but even so, that's disturbing.)

However, I don't think that's the scenario that end-times believers have in mind (if they've given any thought to it at all - after all, they don't expect to be here). As the quote at the beginning of my post shows, LaHaye and Jenkins seem to be under the impression that the ability to withstand torture if you &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; want to is a universal human capacity. And the &lt;i&gt;Left Behind&lt;/i&gt; books never confront this problem in any serious way. From what I recall of them, the few believers who are captured are swiftly executed and are never really tortured at all. 

If the rapture-believers face this problem directly and still believe that God will give his followers the magical ability to resist torture, then so be it. In that case, I'll direct them to the point raised in the last paragraph of my post: though believers may fantasize themselves to be exempt from the basic rules of human psychology, that fantasy has proved to be a delusion time and again. If the end-times world ever actually arrives - which, of course, it never will - and the Christians hope that &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt; time a magical exception will finally be made for them, then they're welcome to that foolish hope. The more miracles they postulate for themselves, the further isolated their beliefs become from reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think those last three lines contain the real position of most believers, with very few taking the position that human psychology alone will protect them from the ravages of torture...</p>
<p>Restricting one's discussion to the latter extreme is like disputing the physical ascension of Jesus into heaven by showing how Newtonian mechanics demonstrate that human beings can't fly, and then tacking "maybe they believe something SUPERNATURAL happened..." onto the end.</p></blockquote>
<p>That's a perfectly fair point, Eunomiac, and of course it's not an argument that I can disprove. Maybe Jesus will give his end-times followers supernatural power to withstand torture indefinitely. I'm not aware of any evidence of such a thing ever happening in human history, but I can't prove absolutely that it won't happen. (Although as an aside: Isn't this basically saying that God will permit his own followers to be tortured, but at the same time take away their ability to yield to their torturers' wishes so they have no way of stopping it? Yikes. I suppose that's consistent with the copious scriptural evidence that depicts the Christian deity as a sadist, but even so, that's disturbing.)</p>
<p>However, I don't think that's the scenario that end-times believers have in mind (if they've given any thought to it at all - after all, they don't expect to be here). As the quote at the beginning of my post shows, LaHaye and Jenkins seem to be under the impression that the ability to withstand torture if you <i>really</i> want to is a universal human capacity. And the <i>Left Behind</i> books never confront this problem in any serious way. From what I recall of them, the few believers who are captured are swiftly executed and are never really tortured at all. </p>
<p>If the rapture-believers face this problem directly and still believe that God will give his followers the magical ability to resist torture, then so be it. In that case, I'll direct them to the point raised in the last paragraph of my post: though believers may fantasize themselves to be exempt from the basic rules of human psychology, that fantasy has proved to be a delusion time and again. If the end-times world ever actually arrives - which, of course, it never will - and the Christians hope that <i>this</i> time a magical exception will finally be made for them, then they're welcome to that foolish hope. The more miracles they postulate for themselves, the further isolated their beliefs become from reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29846</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29846</guid>
		<description>As a former end times Christian, I can say that believers definitely feel that they have supernatural help resisting "the enemy," whether during this lifetime or during the seven years of tribulation. As Eunomiac points out, what happens to a mere mortal during torture is of little personal interest to people who believe they are super-mortal and aided by spiritual powers.

In terms of who's left on earth after the rapture, it's believed that these will be people who belatedly recognize Christ's divinity and pledge their lives to him too late to be raptured but not too late to resist the antiChrist and spread the gospel. 

The 144,000 who are mentioned in Revelation as being "redeemed from the earth" after the tribulation are supposed to be people of Jewish descent who become Christians after witnessing the rapture and persevere through the tribulation to stand in glory with Jesus after the tribulation is over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former end times Christian, I can say that believers definitely feel that they have supernatural help resisting "the enemy," whether during this lifetime or during the seven years of tribulation. As Eunomiac points out, what happens to a mere mortal during torture is of little personal interest to people who believe they are super-mortal and aided by spiritual powers.</p>
<p>In terms of who's left on earth after the rapture, it's believed that these will be people who belatedly recognize Christ's divinity and pledge their lives to him too late to be raptured but not too late to resist the antiChrist and spread the gospel. </p>
<p>The 144,000 who are mentioned in Revelation as being "redeemed from the earth" after the tribulation are supposed to be people of Jewish descent who become Christians after witnessing the rapture and persevere through the tribulation to stand in glory with Jesus after the tribulation is over.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29845</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29845</guid>
		<description>Are you &lt;i&gt;sure&lt;/i&gt; you didn't post that at least in part because of the 'torture' issue rather than the 'Christians believe they're special' issue?

Okay, stupid question.  And I have to say, highlighting that problem in factual, 'aside', fashion is a great way to make me want to scream and throw things at the walls.

&lt;i&gt;On&lt;/i&gt; topic (ostensibly), I suspect LaHaye and Jenkins really just don't know what they're talking about -- but no doubt if they were challenged they'd give the supernatural explanation as a convenient excuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you <i>sure</i> you didn't post that at least in part because of the 'torture' issue rather than the 'Christians believe they're special' issue?</p>
<p>Okay, stupid question.  And I have to say, highlighting that problem in factual, 'aside', fashion is a great way to make me want to scream and throw things at the walls.</p>
<p><i>On</i> topic (ostensibly), I suspect LaHaye and Jenkins really just don't know what they're talking about -- but no doubt if they were challenged they'd give the supernatural explanation as a convenient excuse.</p>
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		<title>By: plonkee @ the religious atheist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29842</link>
		<dc:creator>plonkee @ the religious atheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29842</guid>
		<description>Aren't there going to be 144,000 people taken in the rapture? You know, out of a population of 6 billion and more, we might not miss them. Maybe they've gone already?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren't there going to be 144,000 people taken in the rapture? You know, out of a population of 6 billion and more, we might not miss them. Maybe they've gone already?</p>
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		<title>By: Joffan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29840</link>
		<dc:creator>Joffan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29840</guid>
		<description>SpInq, you are missing those faint Christians (and possibly others) who would be convinced by the Rapture of... whatever. Something more than God's existence, I guess, since the Rapture should do that for practically everyone I'd think, unless so few are Raptured that it makes no difference to the world.

Actually you were nearly right in your first sentence. It is fiction, or perhaps fantasy, although the "science" bit is definitely missing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SpInq, you are missing those faint Christians (and possibly others) who would be convinced by the Rapture of... whatever. Something more than God's existence, I guess, since the Rapture should do that for practically everyone I'd think, unless so few are Raptured that it makes no difference to the world.</p>
<p>Actually you were nearly right in your first sentence. It is fiction, or perhaps fantasy, although the "science" bit is definitely missing.</p>
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		<title>By: Spanish Inquisitor</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29838</link>
		<dc:creator>Spanish Inquisitor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/tribulation-saints.html#comment-29838</guid>
		<description>This whole Rapture thing always confuses me. It sounds too much like Science Fiction to me. But, you say:
&lt;blockquote&gt;One of the tenets of faith of Christian end-times believers is that, &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;in the tribulation period after the rapture,&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;  the world will be taken over by a planetary government ultimately run by the Antichrist. True Christians will be a tiny, hounded minority in this totalitarian vision, forced to live underground and always on the run from the forces of evil, and those who are captured can expect torture and execution.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I thought that all True Christians were raptured into heaven at the time of the Rapture. If this is &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; the Rapture, what True Christians would be left on Earth to live underground, be on the run, be tortured, etc.? What am I missing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole Rapture thing always confuses me. It sounds too much like Science Fiction to me. But, you say:</p>
<blockquote><p>One of the tenets of faith of Christian end-times believers is that, <b><i>in the tribulation period after the rapture,</i></b>  the world will be taken over by a planetary government ultimately run by the Antichrist. True Christians will be a tiny, hounded minority in this totalitarian vision, forced to live underground and always on the run from the forces of evil, and those who are captured can expect torture and execution.</p></blockquote>
<p>I thought that all True Christians were raptured into heaven at the time of the Rapture. If this is <i>after</i> the Rapture, what True Christians would be left on Earth to live underground, be on the run, be tortured, etc.? What am I missing?</p>
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