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	<title>Comments on: How to Think Critically VI: Bayes' Rule</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: bbk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32164</link>
		<dc:creator>bbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32164</guid>
		<description>To me, this is one of several examples in statistics where the hard-wired strategic mechanisms in our brains just don't work very well.  It's not really statistics that's the problematic, but us.  Move away from the statistical proof of Bayes' rule and just start applying it to some every day examples to see what I mean.  

Take the big question: is Christianity overall good for us or overall bad for us?  A Christian will look around and say that 95% of the Christians are good, therefore it's overall good.  An atheist will look around and see that 95% of the bad people are Christians, so it's overall bad.  Obviously, both claims can be true at the same time, so how do we make sense of it?  Well, it doesn't really matter so much if 95% of Christians are good when only 1% of all people are bad.  If Christians hardly ever encounter bad people in their daily lives, they think it's because Christianity is working and so it must be a good test of goodness.  And they're just plain wrong.  It gets really bad when one of these 1%-ers comes along, like Bush or Pat Robertson, and they all give these bad ones unconditional support because they passed the Christianity litmus test.  Guys like Bush, even guys like Hitler, have all been helped immensely because people suck at applying Bayes' rule to their daily lives.  Instead, people actually need to be taught it and even then it's hard to understand the implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, this is one of several examples in statistics where the hard-wired strategic mechanisms in our brains just don't work very well.  It's not really statistics that's the problematic, but us.  Move away from the statistical proof of Bayes' rule and just start applying it to some every day examples to see what I mean.  </p>
<p>Take the big question: is Christianity overall good for us or overall bad for us?  A Christian will look around and say that 95% of the Christians are good, therefore it's overall good.  An atheist will look around and see that 95% of the bad people are Christians, so it's overall bad.  Obviously, both claims can be true at the same time, so how do we make sense of it?  Well, it doesn't really matter so much if 95% of Christians are good when only 1% of all people are bad.  If Christians hardly ever encounter bad people in their daily lives, they think it's because Christianity is working and so it must be a good test of goodness.  And they're just plain wrong.  It gets really bad when one of these 1%-ers comes along, like Bush or Pat Robertson, and they all give these bad ones unconditional support because they passed the Christianity litmus test.  Guys like Bush, even guys like Hitler, have all been helped immensely because people suck at applying Bayes' rule to their daily lives.  Instead, people actually need to be taught it and even then it's hard to understand the implications.</p>
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		<title>By: J Myers</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32155</link>
		<dc:creator>J Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 00:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32155</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How reliable would the test have to be before a positive result would give us 95% confidence that the testee was infected with the 1-in-100 disease?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

99.947%

Ebonmuse, I think there's a typo in your original post:
"Adding up these terms, we get an overall P(A) of...."  - shouldn't this be "...overall &lt;b&gt;P(B)&lt;/b&gt; of..."?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How reliable would the test have to be before a positive result would give us 95% confidence that the testee was infected with the 1-in-100 disease?</p></blockquote>
<p>99.947%</p>
<p>Ebonmuse, I think there's a typo in your original post:<br />
"Adding up these terms, we get an overall P(A) of...."  - shouldn't this be "...overall <b>P(B)</b> of..."?</p>
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		<title>By: Chet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32146</link>
		<dc:creator>Chet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32146</guid>
		<description>Just by estimation I guessed 1 in 5 (20%). A little high, but if you figure that, in a sample of 100 people, 1 has the disease but 5 people have positive results, the odds that any one of those five actually has the disease is less than 1 in 5 (because of the small possibility that the infected individual got a false negative.)

Of course, having a one-in-five chance of dying sometime in the next year might be, to some people, enough reason to draft a will anyway.

So, follow-up question. How reliable would the test have to be before a positive result would give us 95% confidence that the testee was infected with the 1-in-100 disease?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just by estimation I guessed 1 in 5 (20%). A little high, but if you figure that, in a sample of 100 people, 1 has the disease but 5 people have positive results, the odds that any one of those five actually has the disease is less than 1 in 5 (because of the small possibility that the infected individual got a false negative.)</p>
<p>Of course, having a one-in-five chance of dying sometime in the next year might be, to some people, enough reason to draft a will anyway.</p>
<p>So, follow-up question. How reliable would the test have to be before a positive result would give us 95% confidence that the testee was infected with the 1-in-100 disease?</p>
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		<title>By: bkspecial</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32133</link>
		<dc:creator>bkspecial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 03:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32133</guid>
		<description>its refreshing to see people discuss critical thinking.  so often, especially in America, it seems we embrace blind faith and question those who dare to challenge it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>its refreshing to see people discuss critical thinking.  so often, especially in America, it seems we embrace blind faith and question those who dare to challenge it</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32096</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32096</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There was a case in Britain, I believe, a few years back where a woman was convicted of murder after three of her children suffered SIDS, though there was no specific evidence of homicide.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Just for completeness the person in question was &lt;a href="http://www.sallyclark.org.uk/" rel="nofollow"&gt;sally Clark &lt;/a&gt;, a lawer who was convicted of killing &lt;u&gt;two&lt;/u&gt; of her children who apparently died from SIDS. The expert witness was subsequently pilloried for mis representing the stats, sadly Sally Clark, although being aquited in 2003 has subsequently died.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There was a case in Britain, I believe, a few years back where a woman was convicted of murder after three of her children suffered SIDS, though there was no specific evidence of homicide.</p></blockquote>
<p>Just for completeness the person in question was <a href="http://www.sallyclark.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">sally Clark </a>, a lawer who was convicted of killing <u>two</u> of her children who apparently died from SIDS. The expert witness was subsequently pilloried for mis representing the stats, sadly Sally Clark, although being aquited in 2003 has subsequently died.</p>
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		<title>By: J Myers</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32095</link>
		<dc:creator>J Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32095</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Actually the fallacy here was the assumption that the events were statistically independent.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Actually, that's just &lt;i&gt;one&lt;/i&gt; of the errors here; there may also be other risk factors as well.  Ebonmuse pointed out the most egregious error, though: long odds simply do constitute evidence.  Any event having a non-zero probability is almost certain to occur given enough opportunities.  In the absence of positive evidence of parental misconduct, the a priori probability of three infants in the same family dying of SIDS is simply irrelevant if &lt;i&gt;that's what actually happened.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Actually the fallacy here was the assumption that the events were statistically independent.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, that's just <i>one</i> of the errors here; there may also be other risk factors as well.  Ebonmuse pointed out the most egregious error, though: long odds simply do constitute evidence.  Any event having a non-zero probability is almost certain to occur given enough opportunities.  In the absence of positive evidence of parental misconduct, the a priori probability of three infants in the same family dying of SIDS is simply irrelevant if <i>that's what actually happened.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32092</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32092</guid>
		<description>Whew. I'm glad I'm not alone. I thought along the same lines as spaceman spi did. 

Now I feel better. :)

Talk about relativity...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whew. I'm glad I'm not alone. I thought along the same lines as spaceman spi did. </p>
<p>Now I feel better. :)</p>
<p>Talk about relativity...</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32086</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32086</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There was a case in Britain, I believe, a few years back where a woman was convicted of murder after three of her children suffered SIDS, though there was no specific evidence of homicide. The prosecutor argued that it was far too unlikely that three infant deaths in a row in the same family could be anything other than malice. But neither he nor the jury ever considered the question of how many families we'd expect that to happen to just by chance.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Actually the fallacy here was the assumption that the events were statistically independent. Say the probability of SIDS is 1/1000, three deaths would be 1/1000 x 1/1000 x 1/1000 or 1/1000000000. In fact if you allow that there could be genetic abnormalities that contribute to SIDS it is actually quite likely that more than one event could happen in a familly. i.e the events are not statistically independent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There was a case in Britain, I believe, a few years back where a woman was convicted of murder after three of her children suffered SIDS, though there was no specific evidence of homicide. The prosecutor argued that it was far too unlikely that three infant deaths in a row in the same family could be anything other than malice. But neither he nor the jury ever considered the question of how many families we'd expect that to happen to just by chance.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually the fallacy here was the assumption that the events were statistically independent. Say the probability of SIDS is 1/1000, three deaths would be 1/1000 x 1/1000 x 1/1000 or 1/1000000000. In fact if you allow that there could be genetic abnormalities that contribute to SIDS it is actually quite likely that more than one event could happen in a familly. i.e the events are not statistically independent.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32085</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32085</guid>
		<description>My head feels too much like it's full of marshmallow with crossbow bolts lodged in my inner ears to analyze this, but it seems to lend credence to my occasional quip tht "Numbers don't lie.  ...on their own.  Which is why we pay statisticians."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My head feels too much like it's full of marshmallow with crossbow bolts lodged in my inner ears to analyze this, but it seems to lend credence to my occasional quip tht "Numbers don't lie.  ...on their own.  Which is why we pay statisticians."</p>
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		<title>By: Alex, FCD</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32080</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex, FCD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/how-to-think-critically-vi.html#comment-32080</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So if there are statistical problems in DNA testing and matching and it's not always conclusive....then what's Maury Povich gonna do?????&lt;/blockquote&gt;Maury hasn't got anything to worry about, actually.  Different statistics apply to paternity tests.    Everybody gets exactly half of their genome each from their mother and their father, so if you have a sample of a person's DNA, then half of the genetic markers will be identical to something in the mother's genome, and half will be identical to dad's (ignoring mutations).  Since the identity of the mother is generally not in question, for obvious reasons, you can just cancel out the mother's genetic markers and see whether dad has something to match the rest.  It's possible that two people fit the father markers, but if you have a small sample (say, all the men that the mother had sex with nine-ish months before the kid was born), it's not likely to come up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So if there are statistical problems in DNA testing and matching and it's not always conclusive....then what's Maury Povich gonna do?????</p></blockquote>
<p>Maury hasn't got anything to worry about, actually.  Different statistics apply to paternity tests.    Everybody gets exactly half of their genome each from their mother and their father, so if you have a sample of a person's DNA, then half of the genetic markers will be identical to something in the mother's genome, and half will be identical to dad's (ignoring mutations).  Since the identity of the mother is generally not in question, for obvious reasons, you can just cancel out the mother's genetic markers and see whether dad has something to match the rest.  It's possible that two people fit the father markers, but if you have a small sample (say, all the men that the mother had sex with nine-ish months before the kid was born), it's not likely to come up.</p>
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