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Book Review: The Mind of the Market

(Author's Note: The following review was solicited and is written in accordance with this site's policy for such reviews.)

Summary: A libertarian political tract disguised as a work of science.

Michael Shermer's The Mind of the Market concerns "evolutionary economics" - the way that evolutionary forces have shaped human instincts about trading, value and exchange, and how those tendencies have played out in creating the variety of economic systems in the world today. There's enough material on these topics for a good book. Unfortunately, Shermer didn't stop with presenting the science. Instead, he took a large step beyond it and presumed to make conclusions about which is the best economic system. Unsurprisingly, those conclusions lined up with the political views he holds, which appear to be an extreme form of libertarianism. (Even Timothy Sandefur, himself a libertarian, found Shermer's arguments unconvincing and lacking in scientific rigor.) I found it hard to believe that this was the same Michael Shermer who once wrote a biting expose of Ayn Rand titled "The Unlikeliest Cult". Evidently, he retains considerable sympathy for her ideas.

In this review, I'm not going to focus on the scientific studies Shermer discusses. The book covers topics like the evolutionary roots of fairness and reciprocity in primates, the parts of the brain involved in economic reasoning, and some common fallacies in human decision-making. For people who've read books like Blink or Stumbling on Happiness, most of this will not be new. At least in my eyes, Shermer's condescending political lectures drowned out the relatively uncontroversial scientific material. This review will likewise focus on those chapters.

The political moralizing begins in chapter 2, titled "Our Folk Economics". The analogy is to "folk science" - incorrect and superstitious ways of interpreting the world that result from our brains only being wired to comprehend the types of phenomena we encounter every day. Human beings originally lived in egalitarian hunter-gatherer societies, where food and goods were equally shared out of survival necessity, and where the accumulation of individual wealth was an outrage against the group. Shermer claims that this psychology survives today, and that it is for this reason and this reason only that people believe in redistributive taxation. If we could get past this primitive mentality, he says, we would understand that there is no injustice in having a few people be vastly wealthier than the majority, no matter how large the wealth gap is or how abject the poverty of the majority is.

As part of his argument, Shermer does something that many libertarian works do: he considers the potential worst-case scenarios of socialist policies, pronounces them undesirable and thereby asserts he has settled the issue - but he never attempts to examine the potential worst-case scenarios of the libertarian position.

For example, consider universal health care. Shermer expresses concern that this policy would lead to waste, inefficiency, and cost overruns. I quite agree - these are things that can go wrong with government-provided universal health insurance. Now, let's consider the alternative: what can go wrong with private health insurance? I can think of one obvious negative consequence: people die painfully from treatable conditions because they cannot afford medical care. This seems like an obvious followup point, but Shermer ignores it. In a similar passage, he discusses the phenomenon of confirmation bias as it applies to members of both American political parties - again, a serious and legitimate issue, I agree - but never shows any acknowledgment that this is a problem which might apply to him as well.

Shermer also discusses the creative power of free markets and their role in fostering efficiency and innovation. This is true, as far as it goes, but he then goes on to claim that fewer restrictions on markets are always better. He also argues that markets' ability to create innovation without top-down regulation is comparable to the way evolution creates novelty through random changes in individuals. As a consequence, he states explicitly that people who advocate any sort of regulation or restriction on markets - laws against collusion and monopoly, import duties and tariffs, even patent protections - are analogous to evolution deniers. (I hope you can see why this book raised my hackles.)

I'm not denying the power of markets. Directed to the right ends, they are potent tools for generating wealth and fostering innovation. They fully deserve the credit for the millionfold rise in the number of goods and services available to us as compared to what is available to hunter-gatherer tribes. But they are not panaceas to solve every problem, nor are they sources of omnipotent wisdom whose choices are always the best ones.

Shermer's analogy between markets and evolution is an excellent one in more ways than he realizes. Both processes emerge in a bottom-up fashion from the interaction of many local decisions; both can produce superbly adapted results directed toward their given ends; but both processes also tend to be short-sighted, concerned more with immediate gain than with long-term sustainability, which can lead to dead-ends in design space and catastrophe when the environment abruptly changes, and in both processes, the winners prosper while the losers suffer disastrous consequences. Contra Shermer, the reason many people advocate legal controls on markets is not because we do not understand their similarity to evolution, but because we understand it all too well.

February 27, 2008, 8:36 am • Posted in: The LibraryCommentOptions

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Human beings originally lived in egalitarian hunter-gatherer societies, where food and goods were equally shared out of survival necessity, and where the accumulation of individual wealth was an outrage against the group.

There was probably an element of (less controversial than it used tob )group selection favouring tribes/societies that behaved this way as they would arguably have been more socially cohesive. The assumption that the same conditions no longer exist doesn't stack up. In our larger society it is easier to generate large imbalances of wealth but as long as most of us are on a general parity we still maintain a stable society. If there really was allowed to develop a few super rich and a large underclass which could happen in a totally unregulated market, revolution would not be far behind.

Shermer also discusses the creative power of free markets and their role in fostering efficiency and innovation. This is true, as far as it goes, but he then goes on to claim that fewer restrictions on markets are always better. He also argues that markets' ability to create innovation without top-down regulation is comparable to the way evolution creates novelty through random changes in individuals. As a consequence, he states explicitly that people who advocate any sort of regulation or restriction on markets - laws against collusion and monopoly, import duties and tariffs, even patent protections - are analogous to evolution deniers. (I hope you can see why this book raised my hackles.)

The link of the other review says much the same thing; that those that don't trust in the complete evolution of the market are those who need an 'intelligent designer' of the economy (though he does make it clear that is his opinion and he'd like to see if backed up far better than Shermer did). I have a major problem with this line of thought because it seems to be an all-or-nothing deal. Either you're for market regulations and thus back socialism/might as well support stalin, or you're for completely open market and wear an american flag pin; America! Fuck yeah!

Kidding aside,

However, I would think of market regulations in a different way, say a tweaking of the laws of nature. That tweaking still allows for the development of an economy through it's own supply and demand evolution, just working under different intial perameters; there is no government planning of the businesses themselves, just of market conditions (I wonder if they oppose the use of that nasty, government made currency too). Under those new natural limits, different kind of markets can grow can grow and flourish, but others cannot. However, markets left to their own with no restriction, as we have seen, have led to some pretty nasty results. Not to mention the problems markets face with things like "The tradegy of the commons", to which a 'natural' strategy of action will leave everyone worse off once eventually overusing and destroying natural resources (see population, overfishing, unsustainable population growth).

For the most part I agree with Mrnaglfar's post. Eg: I think the least bad way to handle most pollution problems is a tax on emissions.

However, Re: "I wonder if they oppose the use of that nasty, government made currency too". Quite a few people of libertarian bent think that a commodity based currency such as a gold standards has fewer drawbacks than government based paper money. Certainly that has the advantage of limiting the possibility of inflation. Taking government out of the issuing of money strikes me as having some merit.

“Shermer claims that this psychology survives today, and that it is for this reason and this reason only that people believe in redistributive taxation. “

If correct, that summary is pretty damning. Any socialist or economic centrist would be happy to explain to him why they believe in redistributive taxation. Most of these are moral arguments, and you cannot rebut a moral argument except by showing that it results in a contradiction or is based on a principle that you do not agree with. For example, you can rebut arguments against gay marriage by showing that they also apply to infertile couples, or that they are based on moral principles like “do exactly what the Bible tells us, because it is the word of God” which most people no longer support. Some of the arguments are practical arguments, and it can be shown that things like universal health care work pretty well in Canada and most of Europe. Saying that his opponents are all irrational is very foolish but sadly common in politics.

Also, does he recognize problems like Tragedies of the Commons?

Hi Ebon,

I wouldn't attempt to derive any social-moral-politic system based on the theory of evolution. Evolution explains how we came to be - it is not a prescription for morality. Those who assert otherwise would be committing the Naturalist Fallacy. Evolution may select for kinship behaviour, but it also seems to have produced a tendency toward magical thinking. This says nothing about the good or ills of either.

A politic system must be derived from moral principles that relate to the nature of man. As you know, I am not a Libertarian, and I don't reject the need for government. I fully support government and the need for it. As an Objectivist (who subscribes to the philosophy of Ayn Rand as best as I understand it), I merely state that government should never violate individual rights.

I'm not going to defend Shermer because I'm not a libertarian and a lot of what he comes out with I think is nonsense, but I will throw my support behind the free market for one very simple reason: property is an individual right, and nobody has the RIGHT to the property of others. This is a moral principle that is a necessary corollary of human nature. If one accepts individual rights, one accepts property rights. If one accepts property rights, then "universal health care" is wrong.

what can go wrong with private health insurance? I can think of one obvious negative consequence: people die painfully from treatable conditions because they cannot afford medical care.

This is an Appeal to Adverse Consequences. The principle is the same: nobody has the RIGHT to the property of others. Now, IF people cannot afford healthcare in a free society (that is yet to be proved), that is unfortunate, but there are many avenues to provide for them: the care and money of loved ones, and/or private charities. (Or should we socialise restaurants to that beggars don't go hungry and socialise shoe-manufacturing since everybody needs a pair of shoes?) There is absolutely no valid argument to justify the socialization of one private business over others. And I think that is why Shermer extends any form of socialism to its natural unavoidable resultant: statism, whether it be fascism or communism.

They fully deserve the credit for the millionfold rise in the number of goods and services available to us as compared to what is available to hunter-gatherer tribes. But they are not panaceas to solve every problem, nor are they sources of omnipotent wisdom whose choices are always the best ones.

I totally agree with you here - but would also reply that neither is government the solution to solve our problems. That is an Argument from Ignorance.

he states explicitly that people who advocate any sort of regulation or restriction on markets - laws against collusion and monopoly, import duties and tariffs, even patent protections - are analogous to evolution deniers.

I agree with you that rejection of free markets is not a rejection of evolution. Shermer is being disingenuous here.

I thought I would throw my two cents into the defence of free markets. The free market is the right political system because it is the only one that respects individual rights. And no matter what benefits you suggest arise from socialism (like "universal healthcare" - at whose expense?), they cannot succeed because they do not respect property rights.

On everything else I'd probably agree with you; I'm not a fan of Shermer.

All the best as always.

Sad to hear that the executive editor of Skeptic has shown so little skepticism towards his own position. I would have hoped for better.

evanescent,

If one accepts individual rights, one accepts property rights. If one accepts property rights, then "universal health care" is wrong.

I'm not sure how the second sentence follows logically from the first.Please explain to me why this is not a non sequitur.

Universal health care, it seems to me, is merely the state of everyone's individual right to health care being met. It seems to me if there are rights at all, then we have rights to those things (i.e. food, shelter, clothing, proper medical care, education) that are necessary to live more than a mere animal existence. Human rights exist to make sure that we can live fully human lives.

See these for more explanation on why property is neither fundamental nor all-trumping:

Propert is Unnatural

Property and Coercion

Constructing Rightful Property

Must have forgotten a quotation mark or something in the last link. Here is it is.

For the record, evolution is an extemely bad role model. I would base a moral system on it ever (maybe to explain how it came to be, but not to justify). Given how the evolutionary process can be similar to completely unrestrained markets I can't see how that would be a good thing. Heck, the whole idea behind being good is giving up actions that normally would benefit us.

Socialism is a broad term. For the record though Sweden seems to be enjoying it. They apparently are a workers paradise, although the taxes will eat you alive. The Free Market isn't an absolute- it is a tool. Nothing more and nothing less.

If there really was allowed to develop a few super rich and a large underclass which could happen in a totally unregulated market, revolution would not be far behind.

What do you mean, "if?" It's historically happened. O.o

Marvelous. This is probably your best post yet. I saw a video on Youtube back in September or thereabouts, of a lecture that Shermer gave on the topic of evolution and markets (this was a few months before the book came out). I had many of the same thoughts as you.

For the most part I agree with Mrnaglfar's post. Eg: I think the least bad way to handle most pollution problems is a tax on emissions.

Despite the irritation of occasional shallow thinkers who mindlessly reject the concept because it's "weird" ("counterintuitive?"), I also strongly support taxing emissions, preferably in the form of a cap-and-trade scheme, which has the effect of reducing net emissions, creating a profit opportunity for companies that can cheaply and efficiently reduce emissions below the target levels (by selling their allotment of emission output to other companies) and not giving companies which cannot do so the grounds for an "undue burden" argument if they cannot (by allowing them to purchase the aforementioned surplus allotments, rather than forcing them to simply shut down).

I'm not going to defend Shermer because I'm not a libertarian and a lot of what he comes out with I think is nonsense, but I will throw my support behind the free market for one very simple reason: property is an individual right, and nobody has the RIGHT to the property of others. This is a moral principle that is a necessary corollary of human nature. If one accepts individual rights, one accepts property rights. If one accepts property rights, then "universal health care" is wrong.

By that logic, since freedom of speech is an individual right, restrictions on the publication of secret defense information, libel, incitement to criminal activity, and so on are also "wrong." Would you care to make this argument?

This is an Appeal to Adverse Consequences.

...are you contending that it is erroneous to select a course of action (as opposed to a proposition about what is factually true) on the basis of its consequences?

Now, IF people cannot afford healthcare in a free society (that is yet to be proved)

Statistics on the price of health insurance, incomes, and the number of uninsured are publicly available. Go learn.

that is unfortunate, but there are many avenues to provide for them: the care and money of loved ones, and/or private charities.

And if neither of these are capable of meeting their needs?

(Or should we socialise restaurants to that beggars don't go hungry and socialise shoe-manufacturing since everybody needs a pair of shoes?) There is absolutely no valid argument to justify the socialization of one private business over others.

That's curious; none of the propositions I've heard for universal health care suggests that this comparison is accurate. What exactly have you been reading about this?

And no matter what benefits you suggest arise from socialism (like "universal healthcare" - at whose expense?), they cannot succeed because they do not respect property rights.

If you explicitly reject the idea that propositions should be judged based on good or bad results, then what basis do you have for asserting that property rights matter that does not nakedly beg the question?

PS: Adam, any idea why the preview function doesn't seem to correctly process links with anchor references included, even though they show up correctly when it's posted?

evanescent,

property is an individual right, and nobody has the RIGHT to the property of others.

Hmm, that's very Lockean of you.

There has been much investigation into the origin of private property; most sociologist and anthropologists have postulated that this resulted from the emergence of agrarian societies as the dominant form of human civilization. It's as simple as this: staying in one place makes it easy to accumulate stuff; this is not easy to do if one must constantly chase his food.

However, progress has been made since then in sociological and economic theory to advocate the benefits of wealth redistribution.

Since you're basing your argument on such a Lockean ideal, let me throw one right back at you: citizens become a part of a government in order to protect their private property. In doing so, they forfeit their individual right to make decisions independent of the body politic regarding policy, up to and including the allocation of tax monies.

In such a society, if the majority decides that the redistribution of wealth will alleviate many of the social problems and stigma associated with socio-economic class-consciousness (e.g. crime, poor medical care, etc.), then it is your duty as a citizen of that society to contribute your share.

On another note, Locke also advocates the benefit of choosing the greatest future good in order to achieve happiness in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding. It's very short-sighted to dismiss the redistribution of wealth as immoral simply because of an antiquated notion of private property. Actually, giving up a bit of your income can help you to protect the rest of it, as the risk of others seeking your goods and benefits because they have none will be much less than if one were to adopt an "every man for himself" policy.

You're right when you say that no one else in a society has the "right" to another's property, but never forget that your "property" was only made possible by being a member of that society. It is in your best interests to keep that society stable, and if this requires a slight redistribution of wealth, I cannot see how one can argue against this.

There's a reason that all kindergartners learn how important it is to share.

MisterDomino, just came across your reply now. I'm about to nip out so will respond in full tomorrow and explain why you are totally wrong! :) (Oh and there is nothing Lockean about my politics at all).

Ok so I have a few minutes:

Alex said:

By that logic, since freedom of speech is an individual right, restrictions on the publication of secret defense information, libel, incitement to criminal activity, and so on are also "wrong." Would you care to make this argument?

This is a totally bizarre non-argument. Please explain how keeping government secrets violates freedom of speech.

are you contending that it is erroneous to select a course of action (as opposed to a proposition about what is factually true) on the basis of its consequences?

I am saying that the ends do not justify the means, and the correct course of action is not deemed retrospectively based on some arbitrary non-objective standard of suffering (if that can even be measured).

Example: if the only way a starving man can survive is to break into your property and steal your food, he is STILL a criminal if he does so, and he is still wrong. I don't know what your standard of morality is if you disagree!

Statistics on the price of health insurance, incomes, and the number of uninsured are publicly available. Go learn.

You will find that it is governmental interference in healthcare that artificially inflates prices and causes more problems in the long run. Go learn. Here you go:
http://theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2007-winter/moral-vs-universal-health-care.asp

And if neither of these are capable of meeting their needs?

What are you saying? That if it's still not enough, people should be stripped of their property to provide for others? 'Need' does not create 'right'.

That's curious; none of the propositions I've heard for universal health care suggests that this comparison is accurate. What exactly have you been reading about this?

I'm confused by your curiosity: why is healthcare socialised and no other private endeavour? Pray tell: why do sick people have the right to the property of others, but shoeless and homeless people not have the right to free shoes and free meals at fancy restaurants? Could there be a double-standard at work here? Yes I think so.

If you explicitly reject the idea that propositions should be judged based on good or bad results, then what basis do you have for asserting that property rights matter that does not nakedly beg the question?

Because my standard for morality is what is not "the ends justify the means". Moral principles exist as guides to our actions based on what is objectively beneficial or detrimental to man's life. Rights are a moral principle that guarantee freedom of action in a social context.

It is never acceptable to violate the rights of another.

That's all I can write for now. I'll check back tomorrow. Best regards.

Mister Domino --

I personally don't consider notions of private property to be "antiquated". Firstly, assuming that I have come by my possessions legally, I have sweat equity that you lack. Secondly, to assume that the rest of society is required for me to have property ignores those of us who build stuff ourselves.

Since private property is so passé, I eagerly await your turning your bank accounts over to me. You may e-mail me at thumpalumpacus@yahoo.com so that we may arrange the specifics of time and place.

Mathew states "Universal health care, it seems to me, is merely the state of everyone's individual right to health care being met."

Why does everyone have a right to health care? I would agree that everyone has a right to eat, but your statement is analagous to saying that everyone has a right to be fed.

Your positive right must, by its very definition, take away the rights of another.

Human rights exist to make sure that everyone has the freedom to persue their own happiness. There is no right to that at the expense of others.

MisterDomino states "citizens become a part of a government in order to protect their private property. In doing so, they forfeit their individual right to make decisions independent of the body politic regarding policy, up to and including the allocation of tax monies."

So we become part of the government (i.e. pay money) to protect our property so that the government can then use our property without our permission. Does this sound like the mob's protection racket to anyone else?

I agree that government is necessary, but when it does the very thing that it is supposed to protect us from, then what good is it?

(Oh and there is nothing Lockean about my politics at all).

Have you read his Second Treatise on Government? Because you pretty much paraphrased Locke's view on private property in your post.

This idea that taxation is somehow an infringement on property rights is a tired Republican strawman. As simple as I can put it, a representative society sets its priorities and pays for them accordingly. This is not Man Against Oppressive Government. If you don't like taxes or what they pay for, I think we're all smart enough to know what needs to be done--vote or move. The argument is over the priorities, not whether anyone's getting robbed. Priorities determine whether your republic is capitalistic or socialistic.

Personally, to those who fearmonger about oppressive taxation and poor universal health care and welfare, might I point out that the majority of the 1st World self-detrmined to provide these services and are doing pretty well from the looks of things. How are our United States doing in comparison?

Heh, I stumbled on your reply one minute after you posted it, so forgive me if this seems like I'm trolling this thread looking for people to cut down to size.

So we become part of the government (i.e. pay money) to protect our property so that the government can then use our property without our permission. Does this sound like the mob's protection racket to anyone else?

I was referring specifically to a "state of society" versus a "state of nature." Government exists to protect a citizen's private property, but government also exists to force us to do things that we don't want to do for the benefit of maintaining society. Taxes are the prime example; no one would pay them if the IRS (or insert your country's tax collectors here) didn't force us to.

Government doesn't have a free license to do whatever it wants, though, as it's an artificial construct created by the people. Once a person is a member of society, however, he is obliged to abide by the decisions of the majority.

Yeesh, I stumbled into a nest of libertarians!

I personally don't consider notions of private property to be "antiquated". Firstly, assuming that I have come by my possessions legally, I have sweat equity that you lack. Secondly, to assume that the rest of society is required for me to have property ignores those of us who build stuff ourselves.

Then please, allow me to clarify. I meant that the antiquated notion of "labor," that somehow the acquisition of property and the pursuit thereof, is intrinsically good and anything contrary to this notion is an "infringement" on personal liberty.

Regardless of whether or not you build a series of goods yourself, your ability to retain those goods is made possible by society. Were there no rules punishing theft and violence, I would be completely justified in coming to your home and taking everything you own (especially if I was bigger than you), because as you claim, having property is a good thing, and I would obviously want all that great stuff.

As it is, government places laws against such action in order to protect everyone's property. Government may not be directly responsible for the initial creation of your goods (which begs the question: where did you get the materials to build it? Trade goods from other countries? Buying it from a store? All these are made possible through a stable government!), but it is responsible for the lawful protection of your property. This is why we pay taxes; we enter into a "social contract" to protect our private property.

I was trying to explain earlier how something such as redistribution of wealth can actually aid the retention of property and help to promote a stable society. The reduction of social stigma associated with poverty can ease the friction caused by an unregulated economy (or a poorly regulated one) and generally, make life better for everyone involved. One can argue that something such as universal health care falls into this category, as greater health among all citizens can promote more efficient production in the economy. The positive effects are (theoretically) hollistic.

[Note that I myself am against universal health care in many of its current mainfestations, simply because existing plans are inadequate to accomodate a country the size of the United States].

Private property is not passé; the notion that private property is automatically a moral positive - and something on which we should base most key aspects of our lives - certainly is.

I'm going to strongly recommend that people read the links I posted earlier. Richard addresses quite lucidly the problem of "original acquisition" and how property as an institution is constructed by society. He also addresses the moral requirement to redistribute wealth much more forcefully than I can manage.

I'm going to offer a few thoughts here, nonetheless.

I think it should be obvious that certain forms of redistribution of wealth are to one's own benefit. There is no doubt at all that poverty breeds crime. So if for no other reason than to cut down on the chances that one is a victim of crime, one should support redistribution.

More to the point, though, I think people do, in fact, have a right not just be able to eat, but to have food to eat. If people have a right to eat, but no food, that right does them absolutely no good. One cannot pull oneself up by one's bootstraps if one does not even have boots in the first place!

The Objectivist and libertarian (I'm sure I see no difference between the terms, despite evanescent's protests) theory of rights is based on a flawed idea of what it means to be human. The consequence of such a theory is to say to those who cannot fend for themselves, "Die in whichever way you see fit." Such a theory (see Jan Narveson's article in the Blackwell Guide*) maintains that we have no positive duties to our fellow human beings (much less to any animals or "the environment"). In other words, Narveson would disagree with Peter Singer, who in his famous article Famine, Affluence, and Morality, uses the example of a small child drowning in a pond. Singer argues that, if we can save the child at little or no cost to ourselves, we ought to do so. This seems quite right to me, and I guess the only response I could have to someone who disagrees is an incredulous stare. (A bit of philosophical humor - see Lewis. I know, of course, this might, nay, WILL not convince a hardened libertarian, but I guess I don't know what would.) Some people are just born with a sense of empathy, usually at least some small shred of fellow-feeling, I guess, and others aren't.

This is getting rather longer than I expected, but I want to emphasize again that this is a matter or morality, not just practical politics. To those of you who haven't read Rawls, or, especially, Scanlon (his What We Owe to Each Other is a masterpiece of recent moral philosophy), I suggest you do so. Imagine you don't know how the vicissitudes of fate will affect you in society. Imagine that you are getting together with a group of people who will live together in society, but have no idea which roles fate will assign to them. You don't know whether you'll be a Christian, Jew or atheist. You don't know if you'll be male or female, intelligent or less so, rich or poor. Which sort of society would you want to create? I submit that, rationally, you would create a society with a safety net to catch you if you fall - a safety net which includes the provision of clothing, food, shelter, education, and health care. Such is the society that I believe we are morally required to try to make a reality.

It has nothing to do with taking away people's rights. It has to do with what sort of view of humanity you have - one where you are a beast only with the right to die alone, or one where you are given the chance to flourish and thrive.

*See this book: http://www.amazon.com/Blackwell-Ethical-Theory-Philosophy-Guides/dp/0631201181. For some reason when I tried to put the link in the body of my text it cut out a few words and make the whole next sentence a link, and down here it includes a quotation mark in the link if I try to use the "a" HTML tag. Weird.

Curiosis:

So we become part of the government (i.e. pay money) to protect our property so that the government can then use our property without our permission. Does this sound like the mob's protection racket to anyone else?

No, for two reasons. One, the government uses the proceeds of taxation to pay for services that directly benefit all members of society, including you. Two, the payment of taxation is voluntary. If you'd rather not pay, you're free to leave that society and seek another whose policies are more congenial to your beliefs.

What you're not free to do is to remain in that society, taking advantage of all the services it provides, while refusing to pay the upkeep. You have no more right to do that than someone else has to come into your house and use your belongings. He can do that, with your permission, if he's willing to abide by whatever rules you see fit to set. If he's not willing to abide by those rules, he can leave. Those are his choices. The case with society is the same, the only difference being (at least in a democracy) that the decision-maker is not one person, but the collective will of all members of that society. Since those people, working together, created the property and assets of that society, they are free to decide how it should be used.

I think you make a point that I want to emphasize, Ebon. Wealth is not created by just one person, and it is not created in a vacuum. There are a whole host of factors that go along with the creation of wealth. Denying this, and upholding the supermen capitalists (think Rand's Atlas Shrugged, denies the role that workers, laws, and all sorts of other factors play. Perhaps the one providing the capital does take more risk than the one who works for him, and thus should benefit more, but we can't forget that the society that allowed him or her, the opportunity to flourish, also holds some responsibility. Without good roads, and a good police force, for example, there would be little to no opportunity for businesses to flourish. Redistribution pays for these things, as well as helps out the people involved with them. We ought not to treat corporations as individuals, nor individuals as abstractions.

Let me preempt a common objection here - that such "socialist" policies take away people's moral responsibilities. I’m all for letting people face the consequences of their actions – if they’re truly responsible for them. I think there are many factors that vitiate our moral responsibility. Furthermore, it is wrong to let others suffer the consequences of a third party’s mistakes – children, for example, should not be made to go hungry, simply because their parents blew all of their money gambling. (How much more is this the case when the parents have done nothing wrong, but simply face misfortune, such as Hurricane Katrina, or the massive flooding in the southwest part of Minnesota this past summer. [My home state, which is why I mention it.]) I think a rigid adherence to principles can lead to terrible consequences. Such adherence ends up treating people as abstractions, as means and not ends – which is contradictory to the principles which are often offered in the first place in support of libertarian policies.

I'll say it again, I'm not a Libertarian and I'm not a Republican - I live in England so the American political system is not of great interest to me. Although I agree with Curiosis here:

"Human rights exist to make sure that everyone has the freedom to persue their own happiness. There is no right to that at the expense of others."

There can never be a right to violate a right. There is no right to food if you have to steal for it. There is no right to healthcare if you have to take others' money to pay for it.

I think it should be obvious that certain forms of redistribution of wealth are to one's own benefit. There is no doubt at all that poverty breeds crime. So if for no other reason than to cut down on the chances that one is a victim of crime, one should support redistribution.

What you are basically asking for is government backing to enforce your particular brand of favoured political system. On what authority and moral argument can you do this??

Enforcing morality is a contradiction in terms. Even if you're right, which you're not, that would still not justify redistribution of wealth. Being free to make the right decision also means being free to make a wrong one - and reaping the consequences for it. What people like you want is their own personal political bias enforced - how is this any different to the average fundie who wants the 10 commandments shown in public places??

The Objectivist and libertarian (I'm sure I see no difference between the terms, despite evanescent's protests) theory of rights is based on a flawed idea of what it means to be human. The consequence of such a theory is to say to those who cannot fend for themselves, "Die in whichever way you see fit." Such a theory (see Jan Narveson's article in the Blackwell Guide*) maintains that we have no positive duties to our fellow human beings (much less to any animals or "the environment").

Well, Matthew, there is a difference and if you don't see it then I suggest you do your research. What it means to be human is basically to be a rational being.

There is no such thing as a moral duty to other people - again, this is a contradiction in terms. The notion of moral duties is Kantian, and altruistic, and is the sort of morality Christianity is based on. There is no moral virtue external to moral agents - there is no "greater good" to serve external to human values. Morality is a guide to actions - it is guided by objective rational values. Each person must discover these for himself/herself. You cannot FORCE a value on somebody. A value accepted by force is no value at all. If somebody freely chooses to help others - great. But FORCED CHARITY, FORCED KINDNESS, FORCED redistribution of wealth is immoral - a coerced moral action is a heinous contradiction.

In other words, Narveson would disagree with Peter Singer, who in his famous article Famine, Affluence, and Morality, uses the example of a small child drowning in a pond. Singer argues that, if we can save the child at little or no cost to ourselves, we ought to do so. This seems quite right to me, and I guess the only response I could have to someone who disagrees is an incredulous stare.

Well, I too would agree with you and save the drowning child - and if you think differently then you don't understand Objectivism in the slightest. Objectivism merely states to be guided by your values. Now, tell me how saving a child sacrifices your values? It doesn't.

The difference is that no person has a DUTY to live for another. Your life is your own, your own property - it belongs to no one but you. Therefore, no one can make a claim to it on any grounds for any reason. Whatever you CHOOSE to do you are morally responsible for.

This is getting rather longer than I expected, but I want to emphasize again that this is a matter or morality, not just practical politics.

Practical politics are an extension of morality. You cannot have a political system that is divorced from moral principles. That is, unless you have absolutely no stable objective worldview - do you?

I submit that, rationally, you would create a society with a safety net to catch you if you fall - a safety net which includes the provision of clothing, food, shelter, education, and health care. Such is the society that I believe we are morally required to try to make a reality.

Here's a better idea: limitless freedom, on the condition that you don't violate the rights of others. Those that can work, can produce, can trade, can better themselves, can exchange VALUE for value, reap the benefits. It is NOT in my rational self-interest (nor yours) to accept a system that punishes productivity and rewards parasitism. If I can produce vast value to other people and be compensated for it, please explain why that gives anyone else a right to my property? The only right to my property is by those to whom I'm freely chose to make a legal exchange with - they have their goods, I have my money - everybody's happy. What you're advocating is a system where the wealth and property of individuals (there is no other kind of wealth or property) becomes the claim of others, because....??

It has nothing to do with taking away people's rights. It has to do with what sort of view of humanity you have - one where you are a beast only with the right to die alone, or one where you are given the chance to flourish and thrive.

No offence, but that is absolute emotional nonsense. The society that fully respects the human right to freedom and total personal potential and flourishing is capitalism, where you are allowed to live like a human being in every sense of the word, neither living off the expense of others or having other people live off yours.

This is hardly a brutal "dog eat dog" world that your strawman suggests. Rather, acts of generosity and charity would actually be genuine!

I agree with you on this: it is each person's rational self-interest to promote a society of kind benevolent friendly generous free healthy people. To that end, we should do what we can. In fact, doing so is the MORAL thing to do, because it is our selfish interest to do so.

Now, we agree on that. But what you want to do is pull the dissenters aside and stick them back in line at the point of a gun. You don't realise that you're defeating the purpose of freedom and morality by doing so.

The only rights that exist are individual rights. You either accept this or you don't. Society has no rights. A society that fully respects individual rights will be happier and more prosperous as a simple matter of logic.

Evanescent:

I will throw my support behind the free market for one very simple reason: property is an individual right, and nobody has the RIGHT to the property of others.

Property is not an individual right. I can demonstrate that: Look around your house and ask yourself how many of the things in it were made by just one person. I'm betting it won't be many, and of the ones that are, most of the important things won't be among them.

The computer I'm using to type these words is made of metal ore that was mined out of the ground by some people and refined by other people, petroleum that was drilled out of wells by some people and turned into plastic by others, glass that was forged and shaped by still others. All those components were transported to factories where they were molded and cast into shape, fabrication plants where the chips and circuits were etched (behind which process stands all the R&D required to make that happen, worked out by countless more people), more transportation networks - truck drivers, train engineers, pilots, ship captains - to deliver it to points of purchase, advertisers who promoted it, and retailers who distributed and sold it. And then there are the politicians and lawyers who set rules of fair trade and commerce, agencies and regulators who interpreted those rules, courts and police that enforced them, traders and investors who allocated resources to the company that made this computer, reporters and analysts who supplied the traders with the information they needed to make that decision, and so on. And then, after that, there's the massive infrastructure of the educational system that trained and prepared people to do all these different jobs, as well as all the equally elaborate infrastructure of commerce, medicine and law enforcement that fed those people, protected them from harm, built the homes they live in, and so on. Every single member of that vast network played a part in the computer that ended up sitting on my desk.

The claim that all this complexity can be abstracted away, because I paid for the computer and that makes it "mine", is far too simplistic. The only reason I was able to buy it, the only reason that such products exist to be offered to consumers, is because of this vast and elaborate web of societal infrastructure that creates a technologically advanced, stable, trustworthy, free-enterprise market system, within the bounds of which such products can be created and sold. Without that system, without all the work - all the sweat equity - that went into creating it, I wouldn't own this computer right now.

In short, it was society that made my computer possible, far more so than any single one of the individuals who designed or built it. The same holds true for virtually all of the items I use in my daily life. My purchase of this computer, then, represents an allocation of resources from society in general to one specific individual in that society, namely me. The same holds for every economic interaction I take part in - the paychecks I receive, the food I consume, the products I buy. Society is what made those transactions possible. Society, therefore, has a rightful claim on at least some portion of them. That is what taxation is.

(As an aside, this is the fallacy in Thumpalumpacus' ironic point about private property: Taxation levied on me is due to society in general, not to any single individual within it. No one person made these things possible; therefore no one person has a right to the proceeds of taxation on them.)

What you're not free to do is to remain in that society, taking advantage of all the services it provides, while refusing to pay the upkeep. You have no more right to do that than someone else has to come into your house and use your belongings.

Hang on a second, so if I work every day of my life but choose not to pay for other peoples' lives, I have to leave...

But, if I can't work (for whatever reason) I am allowed to stay in a country and get supported by the work of others?

How is that fair?

How does "need" create Right?

How is that not punishing ability for the sake of ability and rewarding inability for the sake of inability?

I'm not being incompassionate - but you can see the dilemma?

And I agree with you that you shouldn't receive without paying for services - but that totally invalidates your welfare state and socialist theory, since that is exactly what those things provide.

He can do that, with your permission, if he's willing to abide by whatever rules you see fit to set. If he's not willing to abide by those rules, he can leave. Those are his choices. The case with society is the same, the only difference being (at least in a democracy) that the decision-maker is not one person, but the collective will of all members of that society.

What if the collective decide to make rape legal? What is the collective decide that entering your home for the "greater good" is acceptable? What if the collective decide that a military draft is acceptable?

Could you clarify this for me Ebon: is whatever the "collective" decides acceptable? And how does that not reduce to pure subjectivism?

Since those people, working together, created the property and assets of that society, they are free to decide how it should be used.

But they didn't though did they?

In a free society, people exchange value for value. Property belongs to individuals. If you write a story and I buy it, what right does Joe Bloggs down the road have to either of our money?

In every aspect of trade, people are remunerated for their services by money. Those who are actually involved in the labour are paid! So your statement that every member of society is somehow owed something for the work of others is confusing to say the least.

You are treating society like a living collective entity in itself like the Borg!, which it is not. Society is a collection of individuals - I really don't see how you can respect individual rights with this position, and I fail to see how you can avoid Communism by this appeal to the "greater good".

Ebonmuse said:

Property is not an individual right. I can demonstrate that: Look around your house and ask yourself how many of the things in it were made by just one person. I'm betting it won't be many, and of the ones that are, most of the important things won't be among them.

Ebon, I'm really surprised by this because it is so divorced from reality:

Every object in my house has already been paid for - at some level by individuals. From the worker who constructed the frame for my computer, the microprocessor etc. All the people involved in the parts and labour and production and creativity have already been paid INDIVIDUALLY. They produce a computer which when I buy, becomes MY property. Now, if we happened to live in the same country, are you saying that part of my computer is yours...because...we happen to live in the same place? Please tell me what part of my computer you helped to build, and if you actually did contribute towards it, like, designing a memory chip, were you not paid for this?? So you've been paid; you gave your service and were compensated.

The computer is my personal individual property. No one else on earth can make a claim to it.

I think you think that I'm disavowing the benefit of society - I'm not. Society is enormous benefit, and true - I wouldn't have my computer if it wasn't for living in a society. But I get my computer by PAYING for it from those that can produce it. Society allows people to exchange value for value - based on personal property.

Property relates to the produce of a living being - it can mean nothing else. And society is not a living being, only individuals are. Therefore, logically, categorically, property can only ever be private and individual.

So what happens, in a libertarian or Objectivist state, when someone is injured and unable to work? Their family or their church might take care of them. What if they have no family and are an atheist? Or what it neither their family nor church can afford to take care of them? I guess they're just out of luck, huh?

How is that not dog eat dog?

What if the collective decide to make rape legal?

You'll notice that all my examples refer to possessions, not to persons. The right to bodily integrity and autonomy is an individual right, because it does not require the existence of a society to make it possible. The same goes for freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and all those other good things. The ownership of property, however, is not an individual right.

And, again, please note my point about choosing to participate or choosing to leave. Being part of a society should always be a matter of individual consent. If a society in any way forbids people from leaving, thus denying them the chance to opt out of policies they dislike, then that is immoral.

But, if I can't work (for whatever reason) I am allowed to stay in a country and get supported by the work of others? ...How is that not punishing ability for the sake of ability and rewarding inability for the sake of inability?

You're attacking positions I've never advocated and do not hold. No one in this thread or, as far as I know, anywhere else has claimed that people who cannot or will not contribute to society in any way should be indefinitely supported by those who can.

This paralyzing fear of having to work to support the lazy or the untalented seems to be the primary, if not the sole, motivating force behind Objectivism, and I really don't understand it at all. It seems to me that people like Ayn Rand are so repulsed by the idea of helping a selfish free-rider that they're willing to slam the door even on the genuinely needy, those who temporarily find themselves in need of help and could return to being productive members of society if they were given that help. I think the much more sensible tradeoff is the reverse - it's better to help those in genuine need, even if an occasional free-rider slips through the cracks.

Society allows people to exchange value for value - based on personal property.

Yes, it does. And that, in and of itself, is a valuable service which should also be repaid with fair compensation. Taxation is that compensation. That was my entire point. As I said, no one individual provides this service; rather, it arises from the collective, organic action of thousands or millions of people. It's therefore fair and just that the repayment be distributed among the collective of society as well.

I think the much more sensible tradeoff is the reverse - it's better to help those in genuine need, even if an occasional free-rider slips through the cracks.

Well said, Ebon.

Objectivism (and libertarianism) are opposed to arbitrary authority. This is admirable. However, it opposes arbitrary human authority so staunchly it overreaches and ends up condemning people to be subject to the most arbitrary of all authorities – simple fate. The less subject people are to arbitrariness, the better off they are. It seems to me a basic moral principle that we ought to try to make people better off. I submit that it doesn’t matter whether the arbitrariness comes from human authorities, or “the world” (for lack of a better term). What matters is making people less subject to arbitrary forces, and thus, better off.

This is a totally bizarre non-argument. Please explain how keeping government secrets violates freedom of speech.

You don't see how a restriction on what people can say is incompatible with free speech interpreted in the same absolutist fashion you interpret property rights?. (I note that you chose only one of my points to respond to).

I am saying that the ends do not justify the means, and the correct course of action is not deemed retrospectively based on some arbitrary non-objective standard of suffering (if that can even be measured).

Example: if the only way a starving man can survive is to break into your property and steal your food, he is STILL a criminal if he does so, and he is still wrong. I don't know what your standard of morality is if you disagree!

This will go a lot better if you'll stop trying to tar consequentialism ("the results of an action, to the fullest extent they can be predicted with reasonable consequence, determine the morality of an action") with "the ends justify the means" ("the goals one is hoping to achieve justify actions, with no regard to the full range of their consequences").

'Need' does not create 'right'.

Then what, exactly, does?

I'm confused by your curiosity: why is healthcare socialised and no other private endeavour? Pray tell: why do sick people have the right to the property of others, but shoeless and homeless people not have the right to free shoes and free meals at fancy restaurants? Could there be a double-standard at work here? Yes I think so.

What is it about the proposition of government funded universal health care that you think is analogous to taking over private restaurants or stores? Don't give me some vague platitude about "socializing" an industry, explain how the situations are comparable.

Because my standard for morality is what is not "the ends justify the means". Moral principles exist as guides to our actions based on what is objectively beneficial or detrimental to man's life.

Will you make up your mind?

Rights are a moral principle that guarantee freedom of action in a social context.

It is never acceptable to violate the rights of another

If one rejects consequential analysis of morality, then why should this be? Especially considering that you justified the existence of rights in a consequentialist fashion just a moment ago. It seems like you accept it except where it's inconvenient to your argument.

What matters is making people less subject to arbitrary forces, and thus, better off.

Well said, Mathew! I made a very similar argument in the third part of my last summer's series, "Why I Am Not a Libertarian".

Evanescent,

Our bodies are not our property--we do not absolutely own ourselves. (http://www.strike-the-root.com/72/nonentity/nonentity2.html) I assume you'll make a comeback at that comment with something that is not deducible from it, so "check your premises" first.

Rights can only be said to exist when people recognize them and agree to them, since they exist entirely in a person's mind and don't hold the same status as concepts of number, for example. (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/) The idea of property suffers similar shortcomings. (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/property/)

Regarding moral theory, Rand was very confused on selfishness and altruism, something Objectivists seem to fail to realize. Look here: http://aynrandcontrahumannature.blogspot.com/2008/02/rands-ethics-part-8.html. Read both the post and the comments. Note: The topic discussed in that blog post is perhaps the greatest reason why I stopped being a "student of Objectivism".

I also highly recommend checking out other entries on the site AND the comments for them.

Also, you never told me what you think about Robert Bass's various criticisms of Objectivism (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2178/oism.html). Ergo brought up criticism of one of Bass's essays, but there are two problems: first, that that particular essay wasn't meant to refute Objectivism in the first place, and second, that Bass made a response to the very criticism Ergo posted. Neither you nor Ergo responded when I made these facts known. Ergo misrepresented Bass and his criticism of Objectivism, losing much credibility in the process, and you remained entirely silent. How open are you to inspecting possible flaws in your chosen philosophy? During our interaction both on your blog and on Atheist Forums, how many of the links that I've provided have you actually clicked on and the associated pages read or inspected?

Anyway, apologies to Ebonmuse for the off-topic elements of this post.

As I have said, the "negative rights only" philosophies have a flawed view of the human person. They are based on a fiction - the rational man. In other words, there is no place in such a theory for the imperfect. We are not fully rational all the time, and even if we were, to make the most rational decisions, we would need all relevant information, which we rarely have.

Permit me to quote from an interview in Reason magazine with Martha Nussbaum, one of my favorite philosophers:

Reason: On the other side, you argue that liberal contractarian theories of the sort many libertarians find appealing (David Gauthier, James Buchanan, etc.) tend to give rise to a (paradoxically illiberal) shaming or stigmatization of "abnormal" or dependent citizens; can you sketch that argument briefly?

Nussbaum: Sure. I should also say that this argument is the theme of my Tanner Lectures in Human Values 2003, which will come out as a book eventually, so the very brief allusion to those ideas in the present book is actually a forecast of my next book. To put it very briefly: All theories based on the classical idea of the social contract hypothesize that people are "free, equal, and independent" (to use Locke's phrase) in the state of nature. Their rough equality in power and resources is an important part of such theories, since they hold that people will get together and bargain about the shape of a state only when it is mutually advantageous to do so. That condition would be defeated were the bargain to include people with unusually expensive needs, or people who can be expected to contribute less than most to the overall wellbeing of the group. People with severe mental disabilities are clearly in this class, as are many with physical disabilities. I then argue that the problem of care for and inclusion of people with disabilities (including elderly people who once were "normal") is one of the major problems of justice that any modern society must solve. It is a problem of justice for the person with a disability, since such people need protection for their self-respect and citizenship; it is also a problem for the people, almost always women, who provide the needed care for people in a condition of dependency or disability. This problem cannot be solved if we conceive of society as a bargain for mutual advantage. We need to develop a richer account of the purpose of social cooperation. In my new book I also apply this insight to justice between nations (for nations, obviously, are grossly unequal in power and resources).

One more example to clarify my point. Objectivists, libertarians, etc. claim that there are no positive duties, only negative rights. We are never required to do anything, in other words. What, then, of children? Are parents morally required to feed and care for their children? Or can they let them starve, if they feel like it? If they can let them starve, I trust most people will see the bankruptcy of this theory of rights. If they must feed and care for them, how is this consistent with the claim that there are no positive duties?

I wouldn't say universal health care is a right, I would just say it's a good idea.
I would also caution that by saying "universal health care" by no means equals "everyone has everything paid for regardless of situations and past records". There are going to be restrictions, and likewise, people will be responsable for answering to the government about their use of the service.

Unfortunately, I haven't laid out my own personal report on the health care system because I'm not getting paid to.

As for rights, they are revelevant to the situation under which they are actted upon. For all their wisdom, no founding father, no matter how intelligent, could have foreseen what would happen to the world 100, 200, or 300+ years from the time they penned our rights initially. The world they were living in wasn't facing things like global warming, overpopulation, or any of the other hosts on issues we are experiencing today and will face in the future.

The best way I've heard it put was that "The morality of any action is dependant upon the situation in which it's performed". And these posts seem to get back to the idea of the libertarian philosophy of what amounts to almost (if not totally) dog-eat-dog. Just because some of your tax dollars are not directly benefitting you now, it does not mean they won't/can't benefit you in the future, or even indirectly benefit us all now. And for the record, Yes, I do feel we all owe a great deal of responsibilty to our society and to those in it.

To those who insist on putting a dollar sign on everything on this planet, if you do manage to succeed what you will have will be efficency, not happiness. I think many of those who study economics fail to remember the fact that after a certain point, money isn't going to make you happy anymore. To say that you deserve a 40" plasma screen tv because you work so hard, and that those who are below you in the socioeconomic ladder whom you depend on for your lifestyle, do not deserve to be taken care of when they are ill is a remarkable selfish proposition. I know, you'll complain "The government is taking money out of my pocket for things that don't benefit me directly all the time" while forgetting about things like roads and police and firemen, and all the wonderful services they do enjoy. And yes, in case you don't realize it, those services are identicial in their available to you as health care would be.

I know many of my friends, who had the unfortunate luck to be born into bad circumstances, did not do anything that warrants them not deserving health care. Hell, many of them bust their ass working 2 or 3 jobs just to try and have enough money to live in a house and eat. They're not lacking health care because they just aren't working hard enough or because they aren't productive members in our society; they lack it simply because of their circumstances of birth.

So what happens, in a libertarian or Objectivist state, when someone is injured and unable to work? Their family or their church might take care of them. What if they have no family and are an atheist? Or what it neither their family nor church can afford to take care of them? I guess they're just out of luck, huh?

How is that not dog eat dog?

Well, "World-Eat-Dog" might be a better description in that situation. x.x

Ebon, I'm going to take your review with many grains of salt. You disparage a number of individual ideas that depend entirely on the given context, but you didn't tell us the exact context in which Shermer presents them. You also didn't explain what makes someone an extreme libertarian rather than just a regular one. I haven't heard his views on this subject, but being that he's a very intelligent thinker, I'm willing to guess that he has a number of valid points or subtleties that you're not willing to acknowledge.

Another libertarian flame war. And I'd like to know where evanescent disagrees with libertarianism, since he is so hard to distinguish from a libertarian. Like implying that businesses are composed of individuals, while governments are not. And ignoring the collective nature of most businesses, especially big businesses. He asks why healthcare is to be socialized and nothing else. But consider all these socialized things:

And quasi-socialist things like electric utilities, landline phone companies, etc. Many of these things are natural monopolies, meaning that it is hard for more than one of them to coexist in one place. You have one and only one road running in front of your home, not a stack of roads that you can choose from.

Furthermore, roads are often built with the help of Eminent Domain -- and I've seen capitalism groupies become vehement socialist roaders, one might almost say Stalinist roaders, foaming at the mouth at those kulaks who refuse to let their property be collectivized in the form of letting roads be built in it.

Ebonmuse is right about libertarians' fear of supporting those that they consider unworthy parasites; he expresses very clearly what I've seen a LOT of online. It's a curious mirror image of the Marxist view that business leaders and managers are unworthy parasites.

And many libertarians have a very Nietzschean view of business and social organization, much as their hero Ayn Rand did. Nietzschean in the sense of regarding business leaders as superior beings and the rest of humanity as the "bungled and botched" (Nietzsche's words).

And they sometimes justify it by trying to argue that business leaders are the real proletariat and that the rest of society is the bourgeoisie, to use Marxist terminology.

I have to apologise in advance for not being able to reply in full – I have had compose a limited reply, so apologies to those I’ve missed, I will come back to you later.

Matthew said:

So what happens, in a libertarian or Objectivist state, when someone is injured and unable to work? Their family or their church might take care of them. What if they have no family and are an atheist? Or what it neither their family nor church can afford to take care of them? I guess they're just out of luck, huh?

How is that not dog eat dog?

Mathew, no one has the right to the property of others. If you care that much about such people, what is stopping you taking care of them? That is what private charity is for. But taking somebody’s property without their permission does not become “ok” just because a consensus says so.

Ebon said:

The ownership of property, however, is not an individual right.

Ok, I see where you’re coming from - I can address this:

It is impossible for man to survive without reaping the rewards of his own creative effort. In order to live like a rational being, a man must have the freedom to use and dispose of his creative effort as he sees fit. Property rights make all other rights possible.

The Right of Property is necessary from the Right to Life, and without the Right to property, no other rights can exist.

Being part of a society should always be a matter of individual consent. If a society in any way forbids people from leaving, thus denying them the chance to opt out of policies they dislike, then that is immoral.

Yes I agree that being part of a society is a matter of consent. But I think you’re begging the question here: you’re saying that the form of government you’re advocating is acceptable because a majority of the people who choose to live under it accept it – but that is exactly the position I’m attacking: that weight of numbers does not make right. Fascism, for example, doesn’t become acceptable even if the populace accept it! Majority rule at the expense of the individual doesn’t become acceptable just because the majority say so.

What you’ve described is impossible in practice – nobody can ever agree on every policy a government decides. Now, I’m not complaining about this in principle, what I’m saying is that no policy should ever violate individual rights – and there can be no consensus to violate a Right. I am NOT opposed to majority votes, assuming rights are never contravened.

This paralyzing fear of having to work to support the lazy or the untalented seems to be the primary, if not the sole, motivating force behind Objectivism, and I really don't understand it at all.

I’m sorry you feel that way but it’s not true. The moral theory of Objectivism is: act according to your rational values, and never sacrifice them.

But in ALL matters of morality as I am certain you will agree with me: morality becomes impossible where force is present.

Even if you were right about the redistribution of wealth being moral, that would still not justify enforcing it – even if SOME people agreed with it.

It seems to me that people like Ayn Rand are so repulsed by the idea of helping a selfish free-rider that they're willing to slam the door even on the genuinely needy, those who temporarily find themselves in need of help and could return to being productive members of society if they were given that help. I think the much more sensible tradeoff is the reverse - it's better to help those in genuine need, even if an occasional free-rider slips through the cracks.

Actually, the free-rider isn’t being selfish – being a parasite is a very selfless act, but that’s another discussion.

I agree with you here! I think if the cost is no sacrifice to us, we should help people in need. We should give to charity and support the needy – I have no problems with this. But it should be a FREE choice to do so. Like I say, you can’t enforce a moral value. And you can’t take people’s property by force just because you personally feel they should hand it over. What kind of charity is that?

And that, in and of itself, is a valuable service which should also be repaid with fair compensation. Taxation is that compensation. That was my entire point. As I said, no one individual provides this service; rather, it arises from the collective, organic action of thousands or millions of people. It's therefore fair and just that the repayment be distributed among the collective of society as well.

In any system of trade the people involved in the production, labour, etc are rewarded for their service with money.

If you make a table, you assemble the parts you need from those that have. You exchange value for value – they receive money and you receive legs, nuts, bolts etc. You finish the table and sell it to me. I give you money in exchange for the table. It then becomes my property. So, what part of the table still belongs to you?? What part of the table belongs to the leg/nuts/bolts manufacturers?? All those involved in the process have been rewarded. I HAVE PAID fair compensation for the creative effort and ability by buying the table. This “service” is not provided by a faceless collective organic mass – every single aspect of trade in society always reduces to the individual – from the people who make roads to those who transport the table etc etc. There is no mystical ethereal property that arises from people living together in a given area. Society is a collection of individuals, nothing more.

Matthew said:

However, it opposes arbitrary human authority so staunchly it overreaches and ends up condemning people to be subject to the most arbitrary of all authorities – simple fate.

Nothing could be farther from the truth!! Objectivism actually says that reason is man’s primary means of survival, and that we live in a world we can transform to better ourselves by means of our intelligence. It promotes flourishing and independence – independence in the sense of not living off other people and not having other people live off you. Being self-sufficient literally means to never desire the unearned.

Now, I really can’t see what your problem with this is.

One more example to clarify my point. Objectivists, libertarians, etc. claim that there are no positive duties, only negative rights. We are never required to do anything, in other words. What, then, of children? Are parents morally required to feed and care for their children? Or can they let them starve, if they feel like it? If they can let them starve, I trust most people will see the bankruptcy of this theory of rights. If they must feed and care for them, how is this consistent with the claim that there are no positive duties?

I’m not entirely au fait with this subject myself so I will endeavour to give a better answer in time. I do know that Rand believed that parents should take care of their children because they bear the responsibility for having them. Let me come back to you on this.

Ipetrich said:

Protection: military and police forces
Judges and court systems
Prisons
Roads and harbors and airports and in many countries, railroads
Postal systems
Parklands

Ipetrich, all property should be private.

The military and police forces and legal systems are a government’s means of protecting its citizens’ individual rights. They are objective and necessary. This is a way of bringing the use of self-defence under objective control. That is why I am not a Libertarian.

I still oppose taxation to support these services, but agree that they are necessary.

Everything else you mention should be privatised.

I say again: the government’s role is to protect Rights. Whatever the circumstances, there can be no appeal to violate a Right on any grounds.

As for roads, I see this argument many times, and it’s always incredible dramatised and unrealistic. Here is an excellent article regarding the ownership of roads. You might not read it but here it is: http://ergosum.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/private-ownership-of-roads/

A great counter-example is the internet. The cost of the individual to use the internet is virtually free these days. Companies that support and operate it are supported by things like advertisement etc. It is in their self-interest to make the internet cheap/free and easy to use so that people do actually use it and so they can sell their services to manufacturers/advertisers etc. There is every reason to think roads would work the same way. Either way the principle is the same: property is individualistic, because only living beings are individuals.

And many libertarians have a very Nietzschean view of business and social organization, much as their hero Ayn Rand did.

Can’t claim to be an expert of Nietzsche but I disagree with everything of his that I have read so far.

I seem to be the only Objectivist around here so please bear with me. There is a lot to respond to from many people. The most disappointing thing I see so far is this grim uncaring harsh dog-eat-dog “money is everything” mentality being pinned on Objectivism. It is false, and hopefully I can demonstrate differently.

Ok, I see where you’re coming from - I can address this:

It is impossible for man to survive without reaping the rewards of his own creative effort. In order to live like a rational being, a man must have the freedom to use and dispose of his creative effort as he sees fit. Property rights make all other rights possible.

Given that you are ostensibly responding to a multi-paragraph comment arguing that "his own creative effort" is not an accurate or meaningful description of the items to which property rights are held to apply, you evidently don't see where he's coming from.

What you’ve described is impossible in practice – nobody can ever agree on every policy a government decides. Now, I’m not complaining about this in principle, what I’m saying is that no policy should ever violate individual rights – and there can be no consensus to violate a Right. I am NOT opposed to majority votes, assuming rights are never contravened.

By your logic above, I can consider money that wound up in my pocket due to a paycheck "my property" and therefore consider that anyone else is depriving me of my "rights" when they insist that I hand it over in exchange for, say, buying a candy bar. This actually fits perfectly with what you've said - you've repeatedly declined to provide a consistent reason for why certain claimed entitlements are "rights" and not others (in particular, you've failed to provide a reason that doesn't also apply to the acts you are decrying as "violations of rights"). The fact that by taking the candy bar I effectively agreed to pay for it is irrelevant, since no consensus can violate rights, including property rights, and you've implicitly disclaimed that a person can meaningfully act in a way that constitutes an implicit consent to pay for a service or good enjoyed when it is provided by society, and have given no reason for this not to also be extended to other providers. The fact that the shopkeeper feels he is owed that money is irrelevant - if a need cannot create a right, then how can a want?

I don't think you quite comprehend the nature and dynamics of the free market system; otherwise, you wouldn't have said the following, which is actually a factual critique of *socialism* and government regulation, not the free market:

"nor are [markets] sources of omnipotent wisdom whose choices are always the best ones."

It is precisely because humans are not omniscient beings and because no one can have infinite wisdom or foresight that the free market system functions the best: it is because the market permits the creation of private networks of individuals, agents, and stakeholders who can enter or exit their own transactional frameworks depending on the circumstances that only they alone are best able to guage, because they are the ones involved in it and/or affected by it. The market allows for immediate and rapid correction and adaptation to new environments precisely because it only requires the individuals within that particular transactional framework to act and respond; usually, this response time is swift and short because this decentralized loop consists of far fewer actors than a government system of bureaucracy and top-down decision-making.

It is precisely the free market mechanism that gives individual actors and agents full and complete control over their circumstances and of the best and efficient ways to respond to them. It is in the self-interest of such individuals to act efficiently, to minimize waste, reduce their costs, maximize their productive value, and adapt quickly to changing market demands or patterns. Alternatively, it is only individuals who are on the "ground" who can quickly assess trends and forsee social, economic, or cultural patterns in order to act proactively. By the time such trends and patterns become explicit and apparent to a government bureaucrat sitting somewhere in New Delhi or Washington, it is usually late and untimely.

Shermer's analogy between markets and evolution is an excellent one in more ways than he realizes.

You left out a particularly damning similarity between evolution (by natural selection) and free markets (in certain conditions): the sheer wastefulness of the process. Individual organisms that are very well adapted to their environment are geenrally not very wasteful, at least not anymore than the laws of physics require. However, evolving those organisms took the deaths of billions of other organisms.

Do libertarians suggest that we should allow countless societies to collapse, starve and disappear, in the hopes that a stable one will appear somewhere down the line? Including our own?

Mathew, no one has the right to the property of others. If you care that much about such people, what is stopping you taking care of them? That is what private charity is for. But taking somebody’s property without their permission does not become “ok” just because a consensus says so.

I make $20,000 a year and have $20,000 in student loans currently. I'm sure taking care of a disabled person on my own would be so easy! That's the whole point of government programs - to do what individuals can't do.

I notice you obfuscate the point by changing the subject to me. I am unable to take care of someone, and it is at least conceivable that there might be no one else to do so. What then? Just come out and say it - handicapped people with no family or church willing or able to care for them deserve and ought to die. How very "Humanist" of you.

I look forward to seeing how child care can be required according to your system. Oh wait, it can't.

Repeating "You can never take someone's property" is not going to convince anyone. Such an argument depends on treating property as some sort of natural right which precedes society and trumps everything else. Richard demolishes these arguments (much more effectively than I can).

Read the following posts and tell us all where he is wrong. I'm sorry for providing such a wealth of links, but they are necessary to provide a full treatment of the issues. Easier to provide the links than simply plagiarizing Richard's writing, or trying to top it myself.

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/self-ownership.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2006/05/property-is-unnatural.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2007/05/property-and-coercion.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/04/equal-concern.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/03/freedom-and-constraint.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/indirect-utilitarianism.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/sacrifice-and-separate-persons.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/libertarians-for-infanticide.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/consistency-and-utilitarianism.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2006/05/institutional-rights.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2004/11/new-freedom.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/substantive-freedom.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/initial-acquisition.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/more-on-libertarianism.html

http://www.philosophyetc.net/2006/06/constructing-rightful-property.html

Alex said:

By your logic above, I can consider money that wound up in my pocket due to a paycheck "my property" and therefore consider that anyone else is depriving me of my "rights" when they insist that I hand it over in exchange for, say, buying a candy bar. This actually fits perfectly with what you've said - you've repeatedly declined to provide a consistent reason for why certain claimed entitlements are "rights" and not others (in particular, you've failed to provide a reason that doesn't also apply to the acts you are decrying as "violations of rights").

Alex, Rights are moral principles that define man's freedom of action in a social context. You have the right to the produce of your creative effort - that is the definition of property. Property is a necessary corollary of the right to life and property rights make all other rights possible. There is no right to the property of others; there is no right to the unearned.

You have no right to a candy bar. You have the right to offer money in exchange for one and you can receive the candy bar if the seller freely agrees to trade with you. That is because the candy bar is someone else's property - until you buy it from him. There can be no right to violate the rights of others. Either the property is yours or it isn't. I fail to understand how you can fail to understand this.

The fact that by taking the candy bar I effectively agreed to pay for it is irrelevant, since no consensus can violate rights, including property rights, and you've implicitly disclaimed that a person can meaningfully act in a way that constitutes an implicit consent to pay for a service or good enjoyed when it is provided by society, and have given no reason for this not to also be extended to other providers. The fact that the shopkeeper feels he is owed that money is irrelevant - if a need cannot create a right, then how can a want?

Neither 'need' nor 'want' create 'Right'. Rights are not invented, nor can they be traded away. They are a philosophical principle relating to man's metaphysical nature.

What creates your Right to a candy bar is the free voluntary exchange of money for goods. Your right to property includes the right to dispose of it as you see this. You can burn your money if you want, or buy a candy bar with it. The shop owner can throw his candy bar away, or sell it to you if he wants. The Right to property means that you are FREE to use your own property - no one else's.

The right to own property is the right that makes all other rights *practicable*, that is, possible in reality.

The above principle is the political parallel of the metaphysical fact that humans are integrated entities of mind and body: there is no dichotomy or dualism between the two.

Since only individuals can think, the thoughts are undeniably and inextricably an individual's *own*. The practical manifestation or implementation of his thoughts, therefore, are also his own--they are borne out of his actions motivated by his reasoning abilities.

However, while a man can never be denied of his thoughts, man can indeed be denied of the products or manifestation of his thoughts by the use of force or fraud from other individuals. This raises the necessity of establishing a moral principle among men that will objectively protect one man's ownership (each man's ownership) to the product of his thoughts, namely, the right to own property. This is the basis of the right to property, in brief.

The right to property is the moral principle that protects man's ownership to the products of his thoughts (like, the right to own the book I wrote). To deny this right to the product of one's thought is the political parallel of metaphysical dualism--to divorce man's body from his mind, to invent a soul (religion), to invent a collective Borg (Socialism/Communism), to condemn man to brute physical existence (dictatorship, Statism), to divorce man's faculty of reason from its practical uses and applications (Idealism).

To live, man must use his mind in dealing with reality. He must therefore be permitted to act freely on the directions given by his mind, his reasoning faculty, in order to tackle the task of survival. This includes being left free to create, fabricate, invent, or procure by means of free trade property that he believes might help him in achieving his goal. He may end up acting irrationally or erroneously; but he must be free to do this as well. He is however not free to initiate force or act fraudulently, because this undercuts the very basis of the freedom upon which he himself seeks to act.

I still oppose taxation to support these services, but agree that they are necessary.

Do you really think that this would work? What are you suggesting here, that paying taxes to support the upkeep of government should be voluntary?

That would lead to an instant, massive tragedy-of-the-commons problem - the very same tragedy-of-the-commons problem that arises in communism, ironically enough. If it's left up to the individual, some people are not going to pay their fair share, which will encourage other people to adjust their own contribution downward to compensate, and before long you have a self-destructive spiral.

A great counter-example is the internet.

The Internet was created and is still sustained by major public investment.

It is in their self-interest to make the internet cheap/free and easy to use so that people do actually use it and so they can sell their services to manufacturers/advertisers etc.

In fact, telecom companies are currently arguing that they should be able to selectively penalize certain kinds of traffic by charging it higher rates (e.g., an ISP that provides voice-over-IP services should be able to raise the rates of a competitor who wants to run that same service over its wires). The only reason they haven't done this, and the reason the Internet remains an open and level playing field which supports investment and innovation, is because the government currently mandates that each packet of data be charged the same rate ("net neutrality"). Your example is actually a perfect example of how public investment and regulation is necessary to steer the market's decisions and keep it open to new players.

Ebon said:

Do you really think that this would work? What are you suggesting here, that paying taxes to support the upkeep of government should be voluntary?

That would lead to an instant, massive tragedy-of-the-commons problem - the very same tragedy-of-the-commons problem that arises in communism, ironically enough. If it's left up to the individual, some people are not going to pay their fair share, which will encourage other people to adjust their own contribution downward to compensate, and before long you have a self-destructive spiral.

Ebon, let me start off by saying that even if this destructive course of action you suggest were a reality, that would still never justify violating individual rights. You cannot avoid a disaster by committing a crime.

However, the idea of voluntary taxation is only unrealistic because we are just not accustomed to thinking that way. In a free society, people are more inclined to pay to protect their property. There are other alternatives, such as a national lottery. Another idea still is to charge a percentage of business transactions for the use of the legal system that will enforce them. Companies would be free to opt out of this service (government provides a service after all), but they wouldn't be legally covered for any business transaction they are involved with. Say 5% of every business exchange is paid to government. Consider the vast business in any country - 5% (for example) would be more than enough to cover the costs of any government reduced to its proper roles: police, army, law courts.

Everyone in a country would benefit from these services - but that is quite different to anybody being forced to support the livelihoods of other people. I'm no legal expert, but what I've demonstrated is that there are alternatives to taxation if we stop to consider them.

In fact, telecom companies are currently arguing that they should be able to selectively penalize certain kinds of traffic by charging it higher rates (e.g., an ISP that provides voice-over-IP services should be able to raise the rates of a competitor who wants to run that same service over its wires). The only reason they haven't done this, and the reason the Internet remains an open and level playing field which supports investment and innovation, is because the government currently mandates that each packet of data be charged the same rate ("net neutrality"). Your example is actually a perfect example of how public investment and regulation is necessary to steer the market's decisions and keep it open to new players.

In a free market, competition is always open and free to anyone who can do a better job at a better price.

The internet is not a right remember. You have no right to the property of any ISP - only what you agree to pay for. A free market is self-regulating; if private companies were left to set their prices at whatever fee they desired, this would encourage greater competition and service. If one company is exceptionally brilliant at providing service and keeps it costs so low to prevent having its market share eroded, 1. that is not a coercive monopoly 2. it is in the rational self-interest of that company and every user of that company. Government interference in any market artifically strangles prices, which ignores the self-regulating law of supply and demand. That is exactly what healthcare is in such a mess in England, and why it is has become a mess in America. The article I linked to above makes the case for American healthcare if you're interested.

In a free market, the actual costs of goods and services are passed on at every level - no company is immune to the principles of supply and demand. Any company that charged excessive fees would ALWAYS be undercut by another company that did an equal/better job for a better price, until a point was reached where no reasonable profit at low fee was possible, and a natural equilibrium is reached. Consumers are free to vote with their wallets. There is only one possible way to artifically avoid the principles of market, and that is government force, namely: the power of a gun (to use of Rand's favourite expressions).

That is why privatising healthcare would have the same competitive benefits as any other private sector market. More important, the actual costs of services for drugs/medicine would be passed on to those that actually use them.

Oh and I'd just like to add that if taxation was removed, it would be foolish to do it overnight. I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort, Ebon - sorry for not clarifying. Such a process would have to be carefully considered, planned, and repealled step by step - certainly not in a day! But it could happen, and should.

I wouldn't say universal health care is a right, I would just say it's a good idea.

I personally think that purporting it as a right makes that a bad idea. It's a damn stupid thing that politicians do to pander to the working class, and in the end that type of language is what kills constructive debate on socialization issues. I don't think that something governed by scarcity can be a right. Freedom of speech, pursuit of happiness, justice - those are rights not governed by scarcity. I don't think a 99 year old alcoholic has the right to a liver transplant - both the organ and the money may be in limited supply and we've got better uses for them. There's many reasons why I'd prefer single-payer coverage than employer based coverage. For one thing, it's cheaper. For another, it's more consistent throughout my lifetime. For another, as a single adult with no dependents I already subsidize my coworkers' wives and kids, so it would really be no different.

The value added by having as many healthy people in the society as possible is an excellent argument for universal health care. It's in the interest of employers to maintain relationships with potential customers and employees as well as with the current ones, so it's just a small logical step to go beyond paying for just its own employees and their families. Maximizing the pool of available resources is in everyone's best interest. Therefore, it should be discussed as a service provided by the government that compliments other services such as schools, police forces, road crews, you name it. But talking about having it be a moral right - that just scares rational people away. That's what inspires thoughts of inefficiency and abuse. So I really don't understand why people present moralistic arguments for such things as if they were somehow the ultimate argument. It's not. It's the worst argument to make, and it's quite misleading.

Evanescent,

Ebon, let me start off by saying that even if this destructive course of action you suggest were a reality, that would still never justify violating individual rights. You cannot avoid a disaster by committing a crime.

What? Are you serious? You would rather have everyone be worse off, probably to the point of death and damage to most other life on this planet, in order to avoid violating someone's rights? Sounds noble and stupid.

I think you're failing to realize something here, and I know you're going to argue it, but here it is; The government is the body that gives you your rights in the first place. This can be made no more apparent except by looking at countries with different rights and different governments. It's noble to say "there's a universal right to free speech and property" and all that stuff (and I agree there SHOULD be rights), however, without government protection of your rights they mean nothing. It means that when someone bigger than you wants your property 'that you have a right to', they won't think twice before breaking your legs and taking it. Whether you realize it or not, the government protects your rights, and those rights should be reevulated from time to time due to shifting natures of the world. For instance, a right to reproduce as much as we want could (and should) be limited by the government for the benefit of everyone, and if not regulated can lead to a point where life becomes a whole lot worse for everyone else. Worse even than if a few people feel they got some rights violated.

Consider the vast business in any country - 5% (for example) would be more than enough to cover the costs of any government reduced to its proper roles: police, army, law courts.

If the government is a body working on a free market with this money, who are you to say what their roles are with it? Taxes are the government's property; you wouldn't consider telling someone what to do with their property would you? Maybe the government decides people should be providing for their own personal safety and things like police and courts aren't the government's business to meddling with in your life; after all, if you don't have the good sense to learn to protect yourself then why should the government be there to help you with your problems? Because you FEEL you're entitled to it? Maybe because others FEEL they are entitled to protection? Well the collective will of people doesn't make it right, and it being a need doesn't make it a right either.

That is similiar to the argument you're making. You seem to only thing the government should be involved in things that you directly benefit from (roads, military, police, courts) that you also don't pay for all on your own. Everyone's taxes work towards paying for it.
Likewise, you also seem to either be missing or just avoiding the point that by making other people better off, those investments may also return to the market in the form of a net bonus to society, leaving everyone better off.

all property should be private.

Oceans?
National forests?
Parks?
The air (pollution)?
Roads (imagine going through all those toll booths?
And who, pretell, is going to be in charge of who decides who gets to own what?

Or, just think of it this way; the government is like a business, and it owns the land. All property is private, and that private owner is the government. They have a list of things they will allow you to do on the land and things they won't. I believe that same point was mentioned in the the earlier posts ebon linked you to.

Government interference in any market artifically strangles prices, which ignores the self-regulating law of supply and demand.

Because we all know how well monopolies and cartells are regulated by supply and demand. And how even after they are established it's not a problem for other companies to start up and compete.

That is why privatising healthcare would have the same competitive benefits as any other private sector market. More important, the actual costs of services for drugs/medicine would be passed on to those that actually use them.

and, if you were to fall on hard times, you and your family would actually be able to use them
Same way the benefits of police are passed on only to those who use them (i.e. get robbed, hurt, whatever). I haven't ever needed the police directly, so why should I have to be paying for them? It's not like I derive any secondary benefits from the police that are merely intanigle to me at the moment, same way other people wouldn't secondarily benefit from health care, right?

But it could happen, and should.

It's been pretty much shown that people don't like paying taxes, and some will make huge problems with it when they're even having their arms twisted to do so. What makes you think, if taxation wasn't mandatory, that people would pay?
After all, taxation is against our self interest isn't it? That's why countries with taxes are doing so poorly compared to those without.

In a free market, competition is always open and free to anyone who can do a better job at a better price.

Untrue. In a totally "free" market, nothing prevents any of the business entities from monopolization or (effective monopolization). In such situations the market would categorically not lead towards efficiency and lower prices. This has been demonstrated by history.

A free market is self-regulating; if private companies were left to set their prices at whatever fee they desired, this would encourage greater competition and service. If one company is exceptionally brilliant at providing service and keeps it costs so low to prevent having its market share eroded, 1. that is not a coercive monopoly 2. it is in the rational self-interest of that company and every user of that company. Which is true as long as you pretend that monopolies just won't happen. Even in an anti-trust environment, you can have effective monopolies, where the company can name their price due to customer ignorance or the difficulty of getting into that particular business. You might counter that "it'll work itself out eventually," but in the meantime you've got people victimized by said lopsided economy and who knows for how long. What if the Robber Barons had been allowed to keep their businesses intact? I imagine people would have lived and died for several generations working for slave wages, forever in debt to the company store.

In a free market, the actual costs of goods and services are passed on at every level - no company is immune to the principles of supply and demand. Any company that charged excessive fees would ALWAYS be undercut by another company that did an equal/better job for a better price, until a point was reached where no reasonable profit at low fee was possible, and a natural equilibrium is reached.

Unless, of course, actual or effective monopolization occurs, in which case equilibrium never comes about.

Consumers are free to vote with their wallets.

Which results in an inherently unequal "election." The rich would always have more votes than the poor, and the poor could never influence the outcome to the extent that the rich could, even if it was more efficient or a better option economically. Voting with your dollars = Patently undemocratic. I really wish people would stop using the term as if it's some kind of acceptable option.

That is why privatising healthcare would have the same competitive benefits as any other private sector market. More important, the actual costs of services for drugs/medicine would be passed on to those that actually use them.

Even if what you say is true, what if the most efficient and market friendly solution is to only insure a small portion of the population and to let the rest wallow in disease? You assume that the market will automatically work towards a socially just end, but there is no guarantee. There's not even a reason to think it's likely.

You talked before about there being no difference between public healthcare and "public shoecare." I argue that there is a vast difference. Shoes are a decent example of the free market at work. There's many choices and it's very likely that you'll find something affordable. But the biggest difference is that when someone has no shoes they don't die from it. Lack of healhcare patently compromises the quality of life whereas lack of eating in fancy restaurant does not. So, it's not logically inconsistent to say that some things should be publicized and others shouldn't.

You talk about the Right to Property, but you're ignoring completely the phenomenon of economic exploitation. I think people have a right not to be economically exploited as much as they have a right not to be exploited by any other kind of force. Much like your Freedom of religion ends where it might violate another's rights (human sacrifice or whatnot), your Right of Property ends where it would encroach on the rights of others. So yes, your Right to Property is finite. You should not be allowed to accumulate wealth regardless of the consequences to those around you. As such, taxation and social programs are no crime, and we should skillfully maximize the benefits form them.

What? Are you serious? You would rather have everyone be worse off, probably to the point of death and damage to most other life on this planet, in order to avoid violating someone's rights? Sounds noble and stupid.

The point I was making is that no supposed imagined "worst case scenario" that socialists like to postulate EVER justifies violating individual rights.

But since I totally reject your notion that the world would self-destruct in a free market, it's not a problem I have to deal with.

I think you're failing to realize something here, and I know you're going to argue it, but here it is; The government is the body that gives you your rights in the first place. This can be made no more apparent except by looking