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On the Possibility of Perfect Humanity

Last month, in "An Impoverished Infinity", I wrote about the strange limitations that many Christian believers impose on God. These theists believe that God was not wise or powerful enough to create a world with intelligent beings that did not also include earthquakes, diseases and other disasters - as if the infinite space of possible worlds was somehow foreclosed.

The discussion in the comments thread centered largely around the issue of free will, which is the most common example of these theological limitations. Several theists showed up to argue that God could have created human beings such that we never chose to sin, but believe that he could only have done so by making us into automata who lack meaningful freedom.

I believe this argument is wrong, and I'll explain why. As I wrote some time ago, what it means to have free will is that you can choose from the options available to you in accordance with your desires. The "automata" claim overlooks the fact that there are three things which free will does not require.

First, free will does not require infinite choice, where every imaginable course of action is a realistic possibility. Even if the laws of nature and logic restrict our options to a limited set, we can still choose freely from among the members of that set. Free will is not a total absence of constraint, but rather the ability to select among the options that are available.

Free will also does not require a mental blank slate, where every possible course of action seems equally attractive and compelling. On the contrary, a free person can have dispositions, desires and character traits that incline them to choose a certain way in a given situation. This must be so, for a person who had no desires or inclinations would never act at all. Having a certain set of unchosen desires is a precondition for having a will in the first place. Just as with the previous point, we are still free because we can still choose among the options open to us. What makes a person unfree is not acting in accordance with their desires, but being compelled to act against their desires.

Finally, free will does not require randomness. Granted, a free person can choose to inject a kind of "radical choice" into their decision-making, permitting their decisions to be controlled by some external source of random input - whether it be a coin-flip or quantum noise in the synapses of the brain. But a random component is not required for an act to be free. Even a decision that involves no quality of randomness, one that is entirely determined by the facts and reasons available to the decision-maker, can be a free choice.

After all, wouldn't the freest possible agent be one who is perfectly responsive to reason, who is perfectly aware of all the facts relevant to any decision, and who decides on that basis? Such a person would always make the decisions that were best for them without ever needing to choose randomly, and surely that is the purest and most desirable form of free will. Anything less would be inferior, because being unaware of facts relevant to our choices diminishes, not increases, our freedom; it causes us to overlook possibilities we would otherwise have considered.

All three of these points should be uncontroversial, even among theists. To deny either of the first two is to deny that humans have free will, because obviously we do have built-in inclinations and do not have infinite choice. To deny the third, meanwhile, is to deny that God has free will; or at the very least, it is to suggest that our free will is more perfect than his, because we are blessed with ignorance and he, presumably, is not. Since I doubt that most theists would want to make either of those claims, I figure they would agree with me.

Now see where these conclusions lead. Free will does not require unlimited choice, absence of desire, or randomness. A person whose choices are constrained by physical law and their own desires, and who chooses in accordance with those desires and with the relevant facts, still can be and is free in a way that is genuine, significant, and worth wanting. (In fact, each of us is such a person.)

Given all this, why couldn't an omnipotent deity have done things differently? Such a being could have created a world where evil was a literal impossibility, where physical law is constituted by God's will and it is not possible to act in contravention to that will. Or God could have created a world in which evil acts were physically possible, but in which human psychology would be different than it actually is, such that we only desire to choose the good. To truly rule out evil in this world, our decisions would also have to be non-random, so that chance would not occasionally intervene and cause us to do evil despite our desires. In either of these worlds, human beings would truly be morally perfect.

None of these options, as we've seen, would turn humans into puppets or automata. We would still be truly and legitimately free. But in these worlds, there would be no sin or wrongdoing at all, and thus no evil, no suffering, no need to create an afterlife of torture or send earthly catastrophes as punishment. Why wouldn't God, if he exists, have created a world like this? It would have been superior to our own in every way.

The force of this argument should be undeniable. In fact, in worldviews like the Christian one, God conferred on human beings a positive attraction to sin - a set of psychological inclinations that frequently bias our decisions toward disobedience. If that isn't seen as taking away our free will, why couldn't he have done the opposite and instead given human beings an equally strong set of inclinations toward obedience? In short, instead of original sin, why not original virtue? If God hates sin so much, why would he create a world that would all but ensure the maximum amount of it?

A rational deity would not demand moral perfection unless he created beings capable of supplying it. To say otherwise contradicts a basic point of morality: that you cannot blame someone for not doing what they are not capable of doing. This is why, for example, we don't hold mentally ill people criminally responsible. We understand that their capacity to tell right from wrong is impaired, and that it wouldn't be just to treat them as we treat people who possess that capacity. But God, if we believe the Christian logic, rejects this reasoning - he created human beings imperfect and then punishes them harshly for their imperfection. If, as the Bible says, God is "not willing that any should perish", then I am unable to see why he would not have created a world where that will could be realized.

February 4, 2008, 8:28 am • Posted in: The LibraryCommentOptions

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121 Comments

Well argued, my friend. The only way out of this I can see is playing the old (and completely unsatisfying) ineffability card.

There's also the unpleasant fact that each person is not born with the same filters on our behaviour. If a god really cared about free will above our suffering or happiness, then why are some people born with an almost pathologically kind and forgiving nature while others are psychopaths, born with no empathy or feelings towards other human beings?

Do I suffer from any loss because I feel a sense of revulsion and horror when I contemplate killing or raping someone else? What about my free will to make decisions about murder in perfect freedom? Does Ted Bundy have more free will than I have?

All jokes about altar boys aside, I think most people making this free-will-justifies-horrors argument are just as limited by their biology as I am. We aren't perfectly free to harm as we are to heal, yet we don't think this is a problem at all!

The argument "against" free will is the recognition that we can be born with a revulsion for harming others, indeed most people are born this way. Yet we are not automatons, we feel perfectly healthy. The question is why is there some minority of people that are born with "more" free will to sin, or some people born without any desire to help others?

(And let's face it, free will doesn't affect influenza outbreaks, earthquakes or other natural disasters. To answer the question of why good people die from disease by saying "free will" is just idiotic.)

You raise some good points. I've encountered the free will argument several times, but I've never thought to use any of the refutations you present here. They seem so obvious in hindsight!

I'd love to ask a Christian apologist, if sinning is a misuse of our free will, why isn't correcting the deity's mistakes also a misuse? A while ago in India, some surgeons used their free will to deliberately mess up a fine example of intelligent design, a little girl born with four arms and four legs. Reading the story of the successful surgery, I had to admit, my own free will felt perfectly intact, too.

Many Christians claim that God gave man freewill as a gift. They argue that each person is free to act in any way that he or she chooses. I can use that freewill to “serve God” or I can use it to do other things. Therefore, if I want to, I can use my freewill to rape a little boy or girl. My question is: If I choose to rape a child, does this not, at least temporarily, take away the child’s freewill, which is supposedly given to him or her by God. If the child is using his or her freewill to walk home from school and his or her intent is to get home, eat dinner, do homework, and play, by kidnapping the child and raping them, have I not prevented them from using their freewill? If freewill were a gift from an all-powerful God, wouldn’t it be impossible for me, a mere human, to take away the freewill of another person? Where one person is using his God-given freewill to commit evil and another, who is using his God-given freewill to do good, wouldn’t an all-powerful God find this to be the ideal time to intervene and protect the freewill of the one who intends to do good?

Very nice argument. I'll be interested in seeing how any theists respond to it.

Ditto

I'd love to ask a Christian apologist, if sinning is a misuse of our free will, why isn't correcting the deity's mistakes also a misuse?

Some say it is. Take for example the fundamentalist protestants who refuse vaccinations on those grounds. And when the first heart transplant was carried out I remember some religious people protesting against it on the grounds that the surgeon was "playing god". (As a small boy at the time, I wondered what exactly that meant. I'm still wondering - only I no longer expect a sensible answer.)

Excellent essay, as usual. I can't believe that I, or anyone else, ever takes Christian doctrine seriously. It seems so obviously convoluted simply to avoid the truth that it makes no sense.

Of course, free will has nothing to do with so-called natural evil, and I'll never understand why theists don't seem to realize that.

There are also the associated problems of God's supposed foreknowledge and human freedom. Everything supposedly happens according to God's plan. How do we have freedom then? We freely choose to act according to God's pre-ordained plan? My becoming an atheist is according to God's plan, then. Yet, even though it is part of God's plan I am responsible for it? That doesn't make any sense at all. It makes the words freedom and determinism completely void of content.

Most excellent post! Points are well laid out which makes it easy to follow/digest. This topic is definitely a weightier matter and you've forced me to pull out my Harvard degree on this one ), just kidding. When I first read this post I started gathering all my "handy" scriptures to help facilitate this discussion but I quickly realized that's not going to help so I've put them away, atleast for now ).

He did not create robots, he created human beings. Love is not love if it is forced. God desires that we worship Him freely. If He had wanted robots surely He could've/would've made everybody without the ability to sin and love Him. But He has given each of us free will so we can either choose to love Him or to not! You wouldn't enjoy your children much if they were forced to love you, would you?

My simple answer to your question(s) is...let's just blame all of it; sin, evil, suffering, and hell on Satan! I know you're probably thinking what a cop-out answer! Blame all of these problems on poor little innocent Lucifer. But as you already know, that's what the Bible says and I'm not going to try rewrite His Word to "win" an argument ).

I won't pretend for one moment as though I have all the answers to all the in-depth/wonderful questions that so many people have regarding God but man it sure is fun discovering the limited depths of our knowledge. Just like you, I get frustrated with sin, pain, suffering and honestly...God's salvation plan is not an pill for some to swallow.

I realize I'm making myself vulnerable with the above comments but the bottom-line is when I look upon the cross all I see is a love story. I see how much He loves me! I never really knew what love was until I fell at His feet and worshiped Him! I wish I could somehow share His love with you, who knows...maybe someday I'll get that chance!

Now you know I can't post without atleast one verse ).

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live (Deuteronomy 30:19)

He did not create robots, he created human beings. Love is not love if it is forced. God desires that we worship Him freely. If He had wanted robots surely He could've/would've made everybody without the ability to sin and love Him. But He has given each of us free will so we can either choose to love Him or to not! You wouldn't enjoy your children much if they were forced to love you, would you?

This is a non sequitor. Why do we need to desire to do evil in order to love god? Why can't we choose to love god or not without desiring evil?

He did not create robots, he created human beings.

"hereigns", my entire post is an argument for why it is possible to create free-willed beings that would freely choose to not do evil. In other words, it was a response to the boilerplate Christian apologetic you just posted. I suggest you go back and read it more carefully.

I really wish I had something more intelligent to contribute to the discussion than "Right on!!!" Until such time as I do, well, right on!

Fantastic post. Some real gems recently.

I have a little twist to bring up.

Let's imagine that a theist were to have a decent response to all this - that somehow one is able to argue that free will really does require that you be able to sin, and that you be inclined to sin, while you know that it's sinful (if you don't understand that it's sinful, you can't be blamed for it, surely, because otherwise we're back at punishing the mentally incompetent - indeed, by that light we should put animals on trial if they harm people or damage property).

Let's go back to Genesis. Eve plucks the fruit from the tree of knowledge ... so right then, as just the creature God made her, she could not possibly have understood what sin was, since she had not yet eaten the fruit. All she had was the admonition not to do it - but without having eaten the fruit, there can have been no understanding that disobedience was itself a sin, because she has no knowledge of good and evil.

She could only have understood that the act was wrong by eating the fruit!

So if the story is true, why did God punish every creature since, for his own failure? Indeed, if it was so darn important to keep his creation ignorant of why they shouldn't eat the fruit, why put the fruit right there anyway? It's the action of a petulant fool, and a damned vindictive one at that.

[If you don't want a toddler to grab the shiny thing you just made, you don't dangle the shiny thing in front of them and say "don't play with the shiny thing". You put the shiny thing *away*. If you tease them with it and then leave it laying around and they grab the shiny thing, you can only blame yourself.]

Excellently put, Ebonmuse. You're certainly making me rethink the details of my understanding of free will.

hereigns,

I realize I'm making myself vulnerable with the above comments . . .

Taking that as an admission that you know those arguments have serious flaws, the rest of this comment may well be superfluous. If so, forgive me -- but for completeness:

[L]et's just blame all of it; sin, evil, suffering, and hell on Satan! I know you're probably thinking what a cop-out answer! Blame all of these problems on poor little innocent Lucifer. But as you already know, that's what the Bible says and I'm not going to try rewrite His Word to "win" an argument.

But don't you have to blame God for Satan in the first place? After all, God is supposed to have created Satan along with everything else. Moreover, if God is omnipotent, God has the power to stop Satan.

Love is not love if it is forced. God desires that we worship Him freely. You wouldn't enjoy your children much if they were forced to love you, would you?

Actually, I think if they were forced by their own dispositions to love me, I'd still appreciate their love very much. In fact, I think most children, in healthy and even unhealthy families, probably are forced by their own dispositions to love their parents. And I'm sure there are biological reasons why mothers love their children. Do you think that, knowing that, I shouldn't appreciate my mother's love for me?

On the other hand, how much would you enjoy your children if you knew they were forced to either love you or spend an eternity suffering? (See this Ebonmusings essay).

Ebonmuse,

Maybe I missed the mark here but I believe I followed the logic of your posting properly. I simply made an additional point regarding "loving the Lord" which I believe is directly connected to sin/evil.

OMGF,

Good question but again it goes back to the "fall" of man. Adam was created to live without sin/evil. I realize how quickly I'll get flamed for this but apart from God we can't even begin to walk in the "Way". In Christ we learn step-by-step, day-by-day how to love ourselves and others. I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it...I still struggle everyday like everyone else.

I get the Biblical representation of free will so it's hard for me to see it from your perspective. I understand we are free moral agents who "freely" choose to love God or not.

Hereigns:

You see a man with spikes driven through his flesh, bleeding from scourge wounds, thorn wounds, etc., as a love story? I would hate to see your collection of horror movies...

==JJS==

Why can't we be kind to each other, just because it feels good to be kind and hope that,that person passes it down the line, so that we all give and receive compassion, loving kindness,and knowledge, as we are in the loop too. Even if we give more then we receive? Theists are good because they have a hidden wish to get on the good side of god so they get into heaven.In addition to fearing god, They do good primarly because they get a future reward. Would they still behave this way if there was nothing in it for them in the future,if there is no god keeping score. The time to be happy is now, the place to be happy is here, the way to be happy is to make others happy.

It struck me that perhaps hereigns is a robot, judging from the canned Christian apologetic regarding free will.

None of the things you said in your first comment, hereigns, address the issue of this post, which was an evisceration of exactly that type of thinking. Better luck next time!?

heregins:

Love is not love if it is forced. God desires that we worship Him freely. ... He has given each of us free will so we can either choose to love Him or to not! ... I understand we are free moral agents who "freely" choose to love God or not.

To Lynet's point, God has not given us a "no strings attached" variety of free will. He provides an ultimatum, "Choose to love me or endure eternal torture in the flames of Hell." Put this way, it is plain to see that this is NOT free will.

It can also be argued that Hell is an instrument of God. Without Hell, this fundamental choice God has given us cannot exist, therefore, there would also be no reason for us to worship Him. Heaven would just be where we go when we die.

God created Hell because God needs Hell.

hereigns: You're absolutely right! What a cop-out answer!
How can you come on a post like this and resort to "satan" as an answer.
You know we don't believe in these fairy tales, and to resort to them to try to answer the intelligent statements that people are making is insulting!
Talk to us about evidence.
terrence: Excellent point. I saw on the news reports that at first, the parents didn't want to "fix" her, because they thought she was a reincarnation of their goddess, "Shiva".
I don't know how they convinced them to change their minds.

hereigns -

It's very nice that you're using your devotion to the Bible as a motivator for personal improvement. If you're actually trying to discourse intelligently on an atheist blog, however, you would be better served by not assuming that we all share your belief that there is anything factual about the Bible.

Ebonmuse suggested that you re-read the main article because you don't seem to have understood what he said. Let me direct your attention to a crucial paragraph:

Given all this, why couldn't an omnipotent deity have done things differently? Such a being could have created a world where evil was a literal impossibility, where physical law is constituted by God's will and it is not possible to act in contravention to that will. Or God could have created a world in which evil acts were physically possible, but in which human psychology would be different than it actually is, such that we only desire to choose the good. To truly rule out evil in this world, our decisions would also have to be non-random, so that chance would not occasionally intervene and cause us to do evil despite our desires. In either of these worlds, human beings would truly be morally perfect.

If there were such a thing as "God's will" (please remember that none of us believes there is!), it would not encompass all choices that can possibly be made within the stricture of absolute moral perfection. For example, there is nothing inherently moral in choosing a flavor of ice cream at the cone shop. Furthermore, creating humans in such a way that they truly, honestly preferred to do "God's will" would not be making robots of free agents, any more than raising a child to prefer not kicking puppies makes a robot of a child.

To speak to your second comment, yes, you are going to meet with much disdain and annoyance for telling us that your way ("God's 'Way'") is the only way. We do not share your belief that any part of a human being persists after death, so threatening us with eternal damnation really isn't going to fly.

We know it's hard for you to see it from our perspective; you have been conditioned quite thoroughly by your religious meme to be incapable of reasoning sanely on a variety of subjects. You do seem to be trying, though, so keep it up!

I'll have to add that love with a condition isn't love. Not as humans define it. I'm sure some Christian has tried to redefine that word also to excuse their deity.

Free will also is abrogated as soon as God interferes in anything. All those miracles in the OT and NT, and those claimed now kill free will.

"You wouldn't enjoy your children much if they were forced to love you, would you?" -- hereigns

Rob, given the fact that your religion demands the worship of god at threat of eternal damnation and hellfire, how can you rationally argue that this is a free choice? We've been over this ground before, you and I, and I never received an answer from you other than "good point." I ask you again: If I am robbed at gunpoint is that truly freewill? If I love god only to avoid hell, isn't that only my recognizing that god holds my soul hostage?

Seems to me a god devoted to free will is mighty persnickety about how he applies it, kind of like a tornado skipping over the farmhouse to blow away the pigtrough. Further, I'm sure you know that free will is an ex post facto construct of theologians. Nowhere in the Bible, to my knowledge, is the concept brought up. It is an appendix with the sole purpose of rescuing Christian dogma from the Problem of Evil.

@goyo - nitpick, but Shiva is a god not a goddess. More importantly, the parents may or may not have thought she was an avatar, but they always wanted her to have the operation; they said her divine nature (if it existed) wouldn't vanish if she were to be normally shaped. It was some other people - who fortunately had no say in the matter - who wanted her left alone.

"We have high hopes of everything going fine and everything is going fine now."

Her parents, who earn about 50p a day as casual labourers and are both in their twenties, were turned away by a government hospital when they asked for help to increase Lakshmi's chances of survival.

However, they were brought to Bangalore after Dr Sharan Patil, the consultant orthopaedic surgeon leading the operation, visited their village.

"We tried to take Lakshmi to hospital but they turned us away and said nothing could be done," Mrs Tatma said. "We saved money and even went to Delhi but the hospitals there turned us away too. Lakshmi had never once seen a doctor until Dr Patil came to our village and took an interest in our case.

"I believe that Lakshmi is a miracle, a reincarnation, but she is my daughter and she cannot live a normal life like this."

The hospital's foundation is paying for the surgery because Lakshmi's family can't afford the considerable cost of the operation.

Source

Aside from this well-argued post, there's the simple fact that if God is really all-powerful--able to shape not just physical laws but also moral and aesthetic concepts to his will--he should be able to make perfect beings with free will no matter how weird the idea seems to us.

Jim, "You see a man with spikes driven through his flesh, bleeding from scourge wounds, thorn wounds, etc., as a love story?"

Yes, what a high price to pay for my sin!

Javman, "Theists are good because they have a hidden wish to get on the good side of god so they get into heaven."

If I had to rely on how "good" I am in order to get into heaven I can assure you I would not make it!

"In addition to fearing god, They do good primarly because they get a future reward. Would they still behave this way if there was nothing in it for them in the future,if there is no god keeping score."

The only reward I really care about is being with my friend, Jesus. I'm not earning any "brownie" points for any good I may or may not do.

"The time to be happy is now, the place to be happy is here, the way to be happy is to make others happy."

I couldn't agree with you more!

hrd2imagin, "To Lynet's point, God has not given us a "no strings attached" variety of free will...it is plain to see that this is NOT free will."

A choice whether you agree or disagree on it's premise is still a choice.

goyo, "Talk to us about evidence."

Prove me I'm wrong. The burden of proof is on both of us. You can't prove God doesn't exist any more than I can prove He does exist.

Vegan Atheist, "Given all this, why couldn't an omnipotent deity have done things differently? Such a being could have created a world where evil was a literal impossibility, where physical law is constituted by God's will and it is not possible to act in contravention to that will..."

I can assure you I'm following Ebonmuse and now your logic, both commentaries have been commuincated well. First, I don't have the mind of God (I know, surprise-surprise) and the scriptures do not directly answer this long debated question, atleast not that I can find, but please allow me to present one possibility.

I think you would agree with the following statement; our actions speak louder than our words. It's one thing to set a goal for something you desire but it's quite another to take action and make it come to fruition. It's one thing to tell someone you love them and would do anything for them but it's quite another to actually donate one of your organs for them.

This idea of action, bringing things to completion and therefore being particularly important is also found in the Bible. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him righteousness BUT it was not fully expressed or completed until he acted on it by trusting God in a difficult situation. Jesus' incarnation and identification with us was complete because He lived as a human and experienced everything we do, including our sufferings.

Logic says, a world in which "moral acts" are carried out has more "good" in it than a world without or one in which the act(s) are only abstract...the more love the more good. Some moral acts therefore cannot be performed in a world that lacks suffering or evil. Some examples include; courage, generosity, self-sacrifice, repentance, forgiveness, and mercy.

If there weren't any suffering or evil throughout the history of the world, there would be no instances of any of the above. Some might reply that they'd be willing to make the trade-off and live in a universe that consisted solely of heaven. However, that universe would lack good which this universe contains, and therefore it wouldn't necessarily make it better. Besides, since God allows each of us to abuse our free will by doing evil, He also gives us the chance to experience repentance, forgiveness and mercy firsthand, after which we much more fully appreciate His love and who He is.

source: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/evil.html

"We know it's hard for you to see it from our perspective; you have been conditioned quite thoroughly by your religious meme to be incapable of reasoning sanely on a variety of subjects. You do seem to be trying, though, so keep it up!"

Please refrain from these types of rude comments. They do nothing to add to your commentary and simply distract from an otherwise excellent discourse. Thank you.

Some might reply that they'd be willing to make the trade-off and live in a universe that consisted solely of heaven. However, that universe would lack good which this universe contains, and therefore it wouldn't necessarily make it better.

The mind boggles. Are you saying, as a Christian, that you believe Heaven is not a better place than this world?

Ebonmuse,

I would've bet a thousand dollars you would be the first to catch that! Not at all, all I ask is for a little slack on this one. Maybe...I wouldn't be capable of appreciating/receiving all of heavens glory if I haven't received God's greatest gift, His love in His Son.

The mind does boggle. Doesn't it strike anyone as arrogant to say, oh, I don't know, that it's better that the world have the Holocaust, just in order to allow people to forgive the terrible things that have been done to them? Such a response always seems to me to belittle the immense, unbelievable amounts of suffering in this world.

Did you know that 16,438 children under the age of five will die today from preventable causes? And tomorrow, and the next day, and every single day after that? I think it would take more good than I have ever experienced to wipe away even ten of those deaths (if we can think in such cold mathematical terms), thus leaving quite an imbalance in the good-evil ratio in the world.

Even more disturbing is that there really isn't anyone responsible for this. Perhaps certain large networks of people are responsible, but there is little that can be done about this. The mechanisms which drive global politics on a historical scale are so large and complex that we as yet have little understanding of them. Truly, only God could be responsible, in the end, for this state of affairs.

Ebon, you bring up something I've wondered myself - if Heaven is so great, why not just have everyone born into Heaven, and dispense with the suffering physical world all together?

Furthermore, (many, at least) Christians believe that there are free, totally good beings in existence - angels. These angels supposedly have free will - they can choose to love or hate God - and some of them are able to be good and never do evil. How does that work!? Why couldn't God have made humans the same way?

So, hereigns, which is better: a world in which everyone attains salvation, or a world in which a small number of people attain salvation and a vastly larger number are condemned to eternal suffering?

hereigns: Yes I can. What does the bible say? It says that with god all things are possible. It also says "ask and you shall receive"; "if you have faith, you can say to the mountain, move, and it will move"; you know the rest...
The proof is that your life is no different than mine. There is the ultimate proof.
If the christian life is real, you should be different than me. You should be immune from sickness, death, sadness, poverty...
If you are not different, then why spend all the time proclaiming your love for a god that supposedly changes lives? How are you different? Tell me specifically.
I experience good times, bad times, the same as you. How are we different?
I say again, no matter what religion it is, there is no difference between an unbeliever and a believer.
There's your proof.

Here's what I don't get about the free will argument: If God wants us to be free to make our own choices, then why does he also want to control every aspect of our lives and do whatever he says without questioning it? That's my impression of how the Biblical God supposedly runs the world.

Hereigns,are you really such a badass that you're not going to make it into heaven?
I take it from your comment that you don't think you are heaven material? what terrible behaviors do you engage in? and don"t you think you better start fixing this heaven rejected lifestyle now? So jesus died to save you/us from sin? I'am sorry what is that sin again that you/me committed? So, if you are not going to heaven you are not going to be with your friend jesus? If you are receiving no points for being good, then how does your friend jesus judge you? I disavow all gods ,including jesus, but I know that if I got this one all wrong ,and there is a jesus /heaven etc.I am such a kind, and caring person that I will be 1st in, And when I'am there I will teach your friend jesus and god a lesson on true compassion and how not to hurt humans. Oh, btw when i'am in heaven I'll talk to my new best friend jesus about getting help for you badassness. (thanks for sharing and being part of this site. Even is we don't agree on god/jesus I'am happy you try to reach out and try to communicate with us )

Excellent post Ebonmuse. Ok now that thats out of the way, this whole commentary is bordering on the surreal to me.

By any moderate definition of the term, Hereigns is delusional. You could write several books addressing the flaws in argument and the ungrounded assumptions hes made in just the few posts here. Yet half a dozen commenters are responding to him expecting some kind of reasonable discourse, just to see him use the "satan did it" play. He clearly seems to be aware the these arguments are not satisfactory, but persits in using them.

I have only one question for him: What evidence has led you to believe that the mind survives the death of the body?

Because weather or not there is a kingdom of heaven, angels, hell, Satan, God, or moral commandments from said God is completely irrelevant unless you can satisfactorily answer that question first. You don't have to answer to me, I don't really care what your particular belief is, just ask yourself weather or not you've thoroughly investigated that claim. Thorough investigation does not mean that a lot of people have told you stories about personal experience, it means actually looking for any real world mechanism by which your mind/soul is somehow unaffected by the death of your brain.

I don't want you to think that I hate you, I'm sure your a very nice person, and more than likely a decent human being. But the things that your saying are crazy, a socially acceptable form of crazy, but crazy none the less. I could list hundreds of contradictions within bible, thousands of logical problems with the consistency of your world view, and yet I feel that it would still completely escape your compartmentalized understanding of things.

Despite everything I've put here, I don't look down on you. Many of my friends share the same beliefs you do, a majority of the world shares similar beliefs with you. It is painfully obvious that people are not obligated to compare their beliefs to the real world. The vast majority of all beliefs, be they political, religious, or ethical are inherited from the authority figures we collect throughout life. It requires a great deal of effort to examine, challenge, and change those beliefs. To do it properly requires a great deal of dedication to pursuing truth, and the self analysis required can be destructive, depressing and somehow glorious all at once. I guess most people just have more important things to do.

Hereigns- It would be a good idea before you post a quote from the Bible that you look at the context in which it was written. In Deuteronomy 30:19, God was telling "his people" that if they didn't follow all his laws and commandments; if they even looked sideways at another god, he would curse them and they would perish. They (the Jews) obviously didn't listen because eventually God gave up on his constant punishments and sent Jesus down with a new message to scare "his people"- believe in my son or you'll go to HELL.. They still didn't listen, so God gave up on the Jews and concentrated on his new favorites- the Christians! He even upgraded the old animal sacrifices to a human sacrifice- nice and bloody too. This is the vision and the story that you have "fallen in love" with?? This is a god of LOVE? This a god who gave you free will, so that when you use it, he can play "Gotcha"! I still think that you are fighting an internal battle to let your inner freethinker out- that is the real reason you continue to post on this website....

hereigns,

Good question but again it goes back to the "fall" of man. Adam was created to live without sin/evil. I realize how quickly I'll get flamed for this but apart from God we can't even begin to walk in the "Way". In Christ we learn step-by-step, day-by-day how to love ourselves and others. I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it...I still struggle everyday like everyone else.

Well, if it is a good question, I would have preferred that you actually answer it. Noting that god (unfairly) punished Adam and all his descendants (as if evil is inheretable from one's parents) does nothing to answer the question why we must desire evil in order to do good or love god.

I get the Biblical representation of free will so it's hard for me to see it from your perspective. I understand we are free moral agents who "freely" choose to love God or not.

If we are "free" to love god or not, why does god make us inherently not want to love him? Does this really make us free?

The notion that Adam's descendants can get punished for Adam's sins is probably the sickest in the whole Bible. It's blood libel, basically--sets the stage for all sorts of xenophobia and even genocide.

Christian theology has always taught that heaven is the home of god-obedient automata, and the "perfected" human is the one without freewill to speak of, who never experiences death, illness, sadness, doubt. If it's good enough for the Ultimate Reward, then why isn't it good enough for Earth and her 'lings? Is that really what they propose: that your reward for a lifetime of fighting death, decay, despair, and all of Satan's other minions while "finding" the messiah through all the noise, clutter, and almost complete lack of real evidence...is to become a robot for Jesus?

Of course, heaven is also described as a 1st century bce gated community constructed with top tier materials and run on god magic. I'd rather just die, donate my body to science, and live on through my children and grandchildren--hopefully leaving them a world that's less ignorant and violent than the one we inherited.

Mathew Wilder,

"Truly, only God could be responsible, in the end, for this state of affairs."

I'm puzzeled, based on your prior postings I believed you to be an Atheist, are you not? Atheists do not believe in God or the devil for that matter. Please clarify your comment. I wholeheartedly agree and am by no means minimizing the horrific loss of life that happens day in and day across the globe. It is truly a sad the state this world finds itself in. I don't blame God but rather MAN for most, if not all, of the horrible atrocities which occur in our towns. Here are some examples:

1906 San Francisco earthquake: thousands of people died. Dr. T. Nakamura, sent by the Japanese government went to investigate the earthquake. His prognosis: "Dishonest mortar was responsible for nearly all the earthquake damage". (Gaukroger 1995:22)

1935 Quetta, Pakistan earthquake: where many again died. The reason similarly was the poor constructional quality of the buildings. Those buildings which survived all had good cement, so that their chimneys still remained intact (Gaukroger 1995:23)!

1985 Mexico City earthquake: again culpability was put on second-rate workmanship and the skimping on construction materials.

1985 Ethiopian famine was devastating, yet two years earlier relief agencies working in Ethiopia had warned the government that it was coming. Instead of alleviating the problem, the government spent $200 million on celebrating the independence of the communist takeover.

source: http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/suffer.htm

goyo,

"The proof is that your life is no different than mine. There is the ultimate proof. If the christian life is real, you should be different than me. You should be immune from sickness, death, sadness, poverty..." "If you are not different, then why spend all the time proclaiming your love for a god that supposedly changes lives?"

Based on your posting, our understanding of the Bible and it's principles are quite different. The verses you quoted seem to be taken out of context. I have no desire to be sick, live in poverty, or be sad anymore than you or anyone else does on this earth. Jesus speaking to His disciples said, "In this life you WILL have many trials and tribulations, but rejoice for I have overcome the world." In the last chapter in the Gospel of John Jesus gave a sad prophetic word regarding Peters later days. The Bible doesn't say we won't have problems but rather quite the opposite. So like you, I can't rejoice about all the problems in this world but I do rejoice in my salvation, restoration in my marriage, broken relationships being healed and for all these and more I am very joyful.

"Ask and it shall be given to you" is not a blank check for us to use for our will but to ask what is on God's heart so that His will is done. To further elaborate on this point, Paul as you may already be aware, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament; did great exploits for God yet when you look at his life it was full of tension and turmoil and died at the hands of the Romans. If he's not exempt from the things you mentioned I know I shouldn't be either.

RollingStone,

"Here's what I don't get about the free will argument: If God wants us to be free to make our own choices, then why does he also want to control every aspect of our lives and do whatever he says without questioning it? That's my impression of how the Biblical God supposedly runs the world."

I'm asking this question honestly; how does God control every aspect of your life? Like you, I question God at times. I don't for one second pretend to understand everything He does either but I can say I've learned to trust Him. I found out that by prayerfully reading the Bible and applying it's principles in my everyday life that His ways truly are better than mine.

javaman,

"Are you really such a badass that you're not going to make it into heaven?"

Your nothing if not colorful )...let me help you out about me, on my best days I KNOW I'm not heaven material! If ALL my good deeds were to be lined up and multiplied by a million they still wouldn't get me into heaven! BUT that's where grace comes in! I'm saved by faith through grace alone, not by my good deeds or "works"! That's what the cross is all about! But thanks for putting in a good word for me )

random guy,

"By any moderate definition of the term, Hereigns is delusional. I have only one question for him: What evidence has led you to believe that the mind survives the death of the body?"

Not trying to play word games with you but it's not our mind that survives our physical bodies but rather our soul. Since I've never died the only evidence I have is the Bible.

"...To do it properly requires a great deal of dedication to pursuing truth, and the self analysis required can be destructive, depressing and somehow glorious all at once. I guess most people just have more important things to do."

Seems like a common theme here...put down the Christian because he believes differently. I understand you don't want to hear this but with comments like this one you build a strong case for God. This kind of rhetoric will only build walls between us. Is that your goal?

LindaJoy,

"...This is a god of LOVE? This a god who gave you free will, so that when you use it, he can play "Gotcha"! I still think that you are fighting an internal battle to let your inner freethinker out- that is the real reason you continue to post on this website...."

Needless to say we are reading the same or atleast similar words with two completely different understandings. You say God is playing "gotcha" I say He's playing "save ya" or better put, 'let Me help you'. Thanks for the helpful tip about my "freethinker" ).

OMGF,

"...god (unfairly) punished Adam and all his descendants (as if evil is inheretable from one's parents) does nothing to answer the question why we must desire evil in order to do good or love god."

How did God unfairly punish Adam? Following the story in Genesis it's painfully clear that sin is/has been inherited with the "original" sin. The very first murder happens in the first generation of man, Cain kills Abel out of jealously.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned...

"If we are "free" to love god or not, why does god make us inherently not want to love him? Does this really make us free?"

I believe we have to go back to Adam for the answer on this one as well. When you think about it, God created Adam and they were to live together in paradise forever. But then he sinned and yet incredibly he still lived to the ripe old age of 930. Our deeds are evil and we do not want them exposed, first chapter in the Gospel of John. As I stated earlier, chosing to love God or to not, is still a choice, even if you don't agree with its premise.

Hereigns,

f ALL my good deeds were to be lined up and multiplied by a million they still wouldn't get me into heaven! BUT that's where grace comes in! I'm saved by faith through grace alone, not by my good deeds or "works"! That's what the cross is all about!

So you won't go to heaven because you're a good person, you'll go there because you close your eyes and wish extra hard? Hardly seems like a valid reason to me, if I happened to be the gatekeeper at such a place. Kind of like saying "A football team can lose every game in the session, but if they just believe they'll get into the superbowl, then they will!"

Since I've never died the only evidence I have is the Bible.

So you believe the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is? In that case, I am god and you should do what I say, and you can be sure I am god because I just told you I was. Also, remember the bible says not to test god, so don't try to verify that I am by any independant means.

I understand you don't want to hear this but with comments like this one you build a strong case for God. This kind of rhetoric will only build walls between us. Is that your goal?

Seriously? Making a stronger case for god somehow by making fun of your faith? Hell, works for me, since I am god and all, and you know it because I told you I was and the bible says you shouldn't test me. I would like to thank randomguy for helping to prove me correct.

You say God is playing "gotcha" I say He's playing "save ya" or better put, 'let Me help you'.

Similar to the lifeguard who offers to save a kid who can't swim right after he pushed him into the pool, if only the kid is willing to give up everything for the help.

How did God unfairly punish Adam?

well there's the whole "adam not knowing right from wrong" thing, god placing the tree easily witin his reach without even putting up a fence, god creating adam's natural curiousity perhaps, then punishing every person who came after adam and eve (who would be genetic identical twins, but hey, don't test the bible) even though they had nothing to do with it and couldn't have done anything about it, so god's being unfair...

Following the story in Genesis it's painfully clear that sin is/has been inherited with the "original" sin.

Oh right, nevermind; god (I mean me) must have punished adam justly because, well, the bible says he did. Checkmate!

The very first murder happens in the first generation of man, Cain kills Abel out of jealously.

And that has what to do with adam? Or how about why did god like Abel's offering of blood better than cain's of fruit? Or how about why people would offer anything to god anyway, since, you know, he created everything and it's all his anyway, so there's really no way to offer it to him?

When you think about it, God created Adam and they were to live together in paradise forever. But then he sinned and yet incredibly he still lived to the ripe old age of 930.

Actually, that's the kind of answer I would expect when I don't think about it. Have you seen a 90 year old, and what shit they look like, physically and mentally? Imagine being 930 years old, with no one else around on the planet. Sounds pretty nasty to me.

As I stated earlier, chosing to love God or to not, is still a choice, even if you don't agree with its premise.

I'm so flattered that you love me so much (remember, I am god, and you know because I told you so, and don't test me) to look past the fact that I'm just a figment of your imagination. Now, it's part of my divine plan that you send me all your money; I need it for god-stuff.

Hereigns,

What a curious selection and interpretation of natural disasters.

The selection is curious because it left out the single largest natural disaster of the last century, the Influenza outbreaks. In 1918-9, over a period of only about 6 months, more people were killed by Influenza than would die in WW I and WW II put together (and that includes Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Estimates are 50-100 million people dead across the globe, with infection rates over 50%. Most died from secondary infections, but many died directly from the Influenza as their lungs slowly filled with fluids and they drowned but not after coughs so strong that people often broke their own ribs. It was so bad that many of the ships of sailors the US sent to war arrived in England with almost everyone dead.

There have been two other major outbreaks since then, and each killed around a million people.

I can't wait to hear how we could have prevented this through better construction, or better cement.

Your interpretation is even more curious. You're blaming the victims, do you understand that? An earthquake happens and you blame the building contractors for the deaths. How mad is that? If you refuse to assign any responsibility to God for these events, how can you possibly credit God for any positive event?

Hereigns- the god of the Old Testament was not into "saving" people. He was a direct "punish you on the spot" kind of guy when he was mad, and a "I'll help you conquer your enemies and give you some good land when you are good" kind of guy. Did you ever hear Moses say that God's rewards to his people included salvation in heaven? The Jews did not believe in heaven, therefore, the god they worshipped didn't offer that. You really need to read your Bible thoroughly. The god of the Christians was into "I'll save ya", so if you are going to bolster your arguements on salvation, as least quote from the right section of the book!

hereigns,

How did God unfairly punish Adam?

I can't help but notice that you latched onto that one word and again avoided answering the question. Why must we desire evil in order to do good or love god? I'm starting to think that you really don't want to answer for some reason...

I believe we have to go back to Adam for the answer on this one as well. When you think about it, God created Adam and they were to live together in paradise forever. But then he sinned and yet incredibly he still lived to the ripe old age of 930. Our deeds are evil and we do not want them exposed, first chapter in the Gospel of John. As I stated earlier, chosing to love God or to not, is still a choice, even if you don't agree with its premise.

Again, this does nothing to answer the original question. If we are "free" to love god or not, why does god make us inherently inclined not to do so? Further, does this really mean we are free? Why are you avoiding these questions, especially since you've said that at least one of them was a good question?

Hereirns said:

but it's not our mind that survives our physical bodies but rather our soul

What is the difference?

If neither my body nor my mind is what goes to heaven, how can that be said to be 'me' in any sense & why should I care?

Mrnaglfar,

So you won't go to heaven because you're a good person, you'll go there because you close your eyes and wish extra hard?

If being a good person got someone into heaven what would the criteria be and who would set the bar? My going to heaven has nothing to do with my righteousness but rather His.

Similar to the lifeguard who offers to save a kid who can't swim right after he pushed him into the pool, if only the kid is willing to give up everything for the help.

If God did work in the way which you have described I wouldn't follow Him either. But our understanding of God is obviously quite different. Which brings us full circle and back to God giving mankind and Lucifer free will.

If I held a gun to my wifes head everyday and said, 'love me or I'll kill you', chances are VERY good I would receive the opposite reaction; at the very least she'd probably hate me. But if I show her I love her by my actions the chances of her willingly love me improve dramatically. Alas, we've come to great divide. Seems to me, you see God with a gun in His hand threatening you and I see Him in His love; because He demonstrated His love by giving His own Son to be killed for my sins. Without this single act Gods Word would be mere words and I wouldn't give 2 seconds to reading the Bible. But His actions speak much louder than any words that have reached my ears.

And that has what to do with adam? Or how about why did god like Abel's offering of blood better than cain's of fruit?

Everything! It shows the fall of man in the second generation of man! Sin being passed down from generation to generation.

The answer to your second question is found in Genesis 4:3-7

And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD. Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Check out verse 4, it explicitly states that Abel also brought the FIRSTBORN of his flock, which represented the best of the flock. God doesn't want the left overs He desires the best because He has given us His best! On the other hand Cain merely brought what was at hand, what was easy. BUT God tries to help Cain overcome his greediness by telling him, paraphrasing now, "If you give Me the FIRSTFRUITS of your labor will it not also be equally accepted but if you don't SIN will overtake you". You know the rest of the story.

Everyone else, I'll not be able to respond again until Monday, at the earliest. Until then, I hope everyone has a good weekend!

Hereigns,

If being a good person got someone into heaven what would the criteria be and who would set the bar?

You answered the first question in the beginning of the sentence; the criteria would be actting in a fashion that helped to minimize suffering and/or maximized happiness; not stealing, lying, hurting, or killing people strike me as a good starting point. As for who would set the bar, it would be that god you believe in but I don't. The difference between how I would view the situation and how you do given your faith is that my critera would involve actting in that above mentioned fashion, and not in whether people subscribe to the faith or not.
That all boils down to the simple question: What is moral about believing in a god/religion/book for which there is no evidence? Why is that trait so good that it allows anyone to get into heaven?

If I held a gun to my wifes head everyday and said, 'love me or I'll kill you', chances are VERY good I would receive the opposite reaction; at the very least she'd probably hate me. But if I show her I love her by my actions the chances of her willingly love me improve dramatically. Alas, we've come to great divide. Seems to me, you see God with a gun in His hand threatening you and I see Him in His love; because He demonstrated His love by giving His own Son to be killed for my sins. Without this single act Gods Word would be mere words and I wouldn't give 2 seconds to reading the Bible. But His actions speak much louder than any words that have reached my ears.

One word question: Hell?

As for the whole Jesus thing, you talk about it like you know it happened, only you don't know it happened. You think it did because the bible says it did, and because the bible says it's the word of god it must be true, right? Same with my example before; you should likewise believe I'm god because I told I was. That's all the 'evidence' you have. So you wouldn't believe in any of bible if it wasn't for what the bible says happened, even if the bible can be wrong about so many other things (like the sun being the center of our local system, the stars not being pinpoints on the sky, the earth being round, bats no being birds, the earth not being 6000 years old, christians not being able to drink poison and live, unicorns not existing, etc)? That's stunning circular selective reasoning on your part.

Whenever you want to acknowledge I'm god because I said I was, I'll except your arguments.

Everything! It shows the fall of man in the second generation of man! Sin being passed down from generation to generation.

Right, so Cain was not Adam, and because Cain killed someone in the story that makes Adam the bad person for actting contrary to what god wanted before he knew what good and evil actually was. Couldn't he just kill Adam and Eve and make new people who weren't sinful, fence of the damn tree and be done with it instead of punishing every single person for the rest of time over something they had nothing to do with?

You still never answered the question about how one can offer something to god. Matter of fact, you didn't really answer any of the questions so much as you restated your same point in different words.

hereigns,
The heritability of sin is just plain ludicrous. If one of your parents committed murder before you were born, would it be just or moral to punish you for it now?

hereigns: As to your response to me about god answering prayer: You're right, I guess those scriptures are occuring in Dutch's parallel universe. Thank you for admitting that god does NOT answer prayer.

hereigns- where is the character named Lucifer discussed in the Bible? Which chapter and verse talks about God giving Lucifer free will? (This will count as your Monday morning lesson!)

And Hereigns --

I cannot help but notice that you didn't (wouldn't? couldn't?) respond to my question. Permit me to repeat it: given the fact that your religion demands the worship of god at threat of eternal damnation and hellfire, how can you rationally argue that this is a free choice?

Of course, my inclination is to state that you cannot answer this question, at least in a manner which will both show internal consistency and preserve your faith. The fact is that any extant hell or other punishment for the refusal to believe would implicitly make any belief in god compelled, and this is exactly the opposite of free will. Your refusal to recognize and admit this simple chain of reasoning seriously undermines what credibility you may have had, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this last sentiment.

At any rate, I look forward to your response to this question.

On another point, you state that heaven cannot be gained by works but only by faith. This turns the idea of morality on its head, no? You truly believe that god is more worried about what you believe than whether you've done right by your fellow humans? Is it more important to god that you kowtow to him than that you not harm his other children? What does this suggest to you about his nature? And isn't eternal damnation in this context imprisonment for thoughtcrime? I find it hard to believe that a perfect god would be so egotistical.

OMGF,

The heritability of sin is just plain ludicrous. If one of your parents committed murder before you were born, would it be just or moral to punish you for it now?

I'm not sure if we're still on topic anymore but...we inherit our nature, which is to sin against God, from Adam (Rom. 5:12-21). The proof-is-in-the-pudding so to speak, all of us have broken 1 or more of the 10 commandments at some point in our life.

Our sin with Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

goyo,

As to your response to me about god answering prayer: You're right, I guess those scriptures are occuring in Dutch's parallel universe. Thank you for admitting that god does NOT answer prayer.

My response in no way shape or form admits that God does NOT answer prayer, I KNOW that He does! He's healed me in many ways! He's physically healed my wife by restoring her gall bladder. Because it was failing her doctor was going to remove it from her body but God answered our prayer and He healed her! I could go on and on about how God has answered so many prayers in those around me!

LindaJoy,

Where is the character named Lucifer discussed in the Bible? Which chapter and verse talks about God giving Lucifer free will? (This will count as your Monday morning lesson!)

I will refuse to dispute over semantics with you, Genesis 3 should suffice in this discussion.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12:9)

Thumpalumpacus,

I cannot help but notice that you didn't (wouldn't? couldn't?) respond to my question. Permit me to repeat it: given the fact that your religion demands the worship of god at threat of eternal damnation and hellfire, how can you rationally argue that this is a free choice?

I truly am not ignoring your question(s), forgive me if I've came across that way, just been a little busy lately. You're right, you and I have been around this block once before and to be perfectly honest I'm not certain any answer I can give you will be acceptable to you, atleast not at this time.

Say I'm driving my car at 70mph and there is a collision ahead of me, logic says if I don't manuever my car one way or the other on the road I may very well be killed or at the very least get hurt when my car gets tangled in the mess. But if I react/decide to move the car to the left or right enough to miss the vehicles involved in the accident I will have greatly improved my chances of walking away from the incident without a scratch.

Now I didn't like the fact that the accident happened and I certainly didn't like the fact that I found myself in the situation where I could be injured or possibly killed by making the wrong decision. But my liking or disliking this incident doesn't change the fact that I still had to made to make a choice.

The same is true when it comes to God and His righteousness. God does offer us two choices, heaven or hell.

...seriously undermines what credibility you may have had, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this last sentiment

I'm afraid you give me too much credit )

On another point, you state that heaven cannot be gained by works but only by faith. This turns the idea of morality on its head, no? You truly believe that god is more worried about what you believe than whether you've done right by your fellow humans?

Works alone will not save anyone just as faith without works will not save anyone. With faith comes works, faith without works is dead. When we come to God He changes our character. He removes our own selfish desires in lieu of His. One example of this is the woman caught in the adulterous relationship. The men who caught her in the act want to stone her and bring her to Jesus. Once Jesus convicts the men of their own sin He simply turns to the woman and says, "go and sin no more".

...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Galations 2:16)

and

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

And to return to the original topic of the post:

When we come to God He changes our character. He removes our own selfish desires in lieu of His.

And if that is the state God desires human beings to be in, then why wouldn't he create them that way in the first place? In the Christian worldview, God gave humans a set of strong desires to do the opposite of what he actually wants them to do, and then punishes them with an eternity of torture for acting in accordance with the nature he gave them. This theology is completely bereft of reason or logic. My original post argued that, if God wants humans to act a certain way, he could have given them desires to act that way without taking away their free will. Your recitation of canned theological talking points has yet to address this foundational argument.

Hereigns,

There is so much wrong with what you're contending, so I'll do it piece by piece.

we inherit our nature, which is to sin against God, from Adam (Rom. 5:12-21). The proof-is-in-the-pudding so to speak, all of us have broken 1 or more of the 10 commandments at some point in our life.

Simple solution, as I've mentioned before: God kills adam and eve (two who people; compared to his record in the bible, that's not even a bat of an eyelash). Once they're dead, he fences off the tree, or better yet, removes the tree from the garden, and makes two new perfect people who won't pass sin onto everyone ever. Once he got around that whole "genetically, it's impossible to bred an entire human population from two people" thing, we'd be home free. Perfect people, no sin, no nothing. Are you suggesting god's plan is better than that one?

I KNOW that He does! He's healed me in many ways! He's physically healed my wife by restoring her gall bladder.

Yeah, it's not like people can heal themselves! That's never happened! Not ever! Doctors don't have a better chance of healing people than prayer, everyone knows that Also, this prayer working thing has been confirmed by pray studies so we can be sure it works! Everyone who gets prayed for shows significance increase in their condition, and clearly, no one who was ever being prayed for died, or got cancer, or took months/years to heal! Not to mention all those people who have lost limbs regrown suddenly through prayer!

...right?

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12:9)

Yeah, that totally talks about god giving lucifer free will. I see your point now.

Wait, no I don't, and no it doesn't.

Say I'm driving my car at 70mph and there is a collision ahead of me, logic says if I don't manuever my car one way or the other on the road I may very well be killed or at the very least get hurt when my car gets tangled in the mess. But if I react/decide to move the car to the left or right enough to miss the vehicles involved in the accident I will have greatly improved my chances of walking away from the incident without a scratch.

Now I didn't like the fact that the accident happened and I certainly didn't like the fact that I found myself in the situation where I could be injured or possibly killed by making the wrong decision. But my liking or disliking this incident doesn't change the fact that I still had to made to make a choice.

The same is true when it comes to God and His righteousness. God does offer us two choices, heaven or hell.

Better analogy; You're a child who can't swim and the life guard pushes you into a pool you didn't ask to be in, knowing you can't swim. As you thrash around blindly, the lifeguard offers to save you, if you just submit to his will for the rest of your life. He doesn't like the fact that you're in the pool, and neither do you, but by offering to save you if you submit to his will, he's showing his grace in it's wonderful bounty. The freewill thing comes in here, because you can now choose to drown or to be saved.

Now, I know what you're thinking; That analogy falls short! It's clear that we know the lifeguard exists, whereas god goes through great lengths to avoid revealing himself in ways that don't involve grilled cheese sanwiches. Also, we know lifeguards are there to help the kids regardless of who they are, and if they saw one drowning would jump in immedately to help! They wouldn't ask the kids such a silly question. Not to mention, the lifeguards didn't create the pool with the intention of this in mind, whereas god clearly created hell with this idea.

I'd add more, but I'm saving it for my book about why lifeguards show stronger moral character than god.

With faith comes works, faith without works is dead

That's funny, because it directly contradicts what you said above; In case you forgot, you said this:

If ALL my good deeds were to be lined up and multiplied by a million they still wouldn't get me into heaven! BUT that's where grace comes in! I'm saved by faith through grace alone, not by my good deeds or "works"! That's what the cross is all about!

I've bolded that part where the massive contradiction occurs. Feel free to correct yourself again.

Once Jesus convicts the men of their own sin He simply turns to the woman and says, "go and sin no more".

Wow, that's easy. I guess they forgot the rest of the story where the woman goes to hell for breaking the 10 commandments. Or the other parts of the bible that say she should have been stoned to death (which means the men were wicked for trying to follow god's word. If only a person without sin should be able to cast the first stone, shouldn't Jesus have done it himself?)

Now, as always, let the mental gymnastics and dance routine begin.

One more thing I forgot to mention, though I've mentioned it before.

Person A is an atheist with a long list of good deeds.
Person B is a theist with that exact same list of deeds.

Only one will make it into heaven, the other will be tortured forever in hell according to you, se please tell me what is so morally good about believing in something with has yet to be proven to even exist, and if does exist, is going through great lengths to avoid revealing itself to us?

hereigns:

If I held a gun to my wifes head everyday and said, 'love me or I'll kill you', chances are VERY good I would receive the opposite reaction; at the very least she'd probably hate me. But if I show her I love her by my actions the chances of her willingly love me improve dramatically. Alas, we've come to great divide. Seems to me, you see God with a gun in His hand threatening you and I see Him in His love; because He demonstrated His love by giving His own Son to be killed for my sins.

So to extend your analogy to include the "sacrifice" god made. You threaten your wife with a gun and demand that she love you, but then say, "because I love you so much, and I know your love can never measure up to my standards, I'll shoot my own little toe off to let you off the hook. Now you don't have to love me, but you need to thank me and try to love me... or I'll kill you."

I'm sorry hereigns, but your head is so full of illogical, contradictory stuff, and you cherry pick the Bible so much, it gives one a headache. So many posters on this site have demonstrated that to you and yet you keep on dishing it out. It must be very painful to live in this inner world full of arguments based upon mythologies and imaginary events and books like Revelations. Thomas Jefferson was right- Revelations is just the delusional ravings of some man with bad dreams. The more you dig in with these arguments, the more you put yourself in a hole. While it is brave of you in some ways to argue with a group of people who disagree with you, it is kind of naive of you to think you will convince a group of people who have probably already been where you are and managed to think themselves out of that box.

"because I love you so much, and I know your love can never measure up to my standards, I'll shoot my own little toe off to let you off the hook. Now you don't have to love me, but you need to thank me and try to love me... or I'll kill you."

I'm laughing out loud! That was funny!

Hereigns --

Thank you for your response. I had a nice reply all cooking up in my head until I read Mrnaglfar's riposte; he covered most of my salient points with a verve and wit I can rarely muster. Then again, I'm on my lunch break, and he's probably been sittin' on his duff all week.

At any rate, a couple of points he missed:

1) Your comparison of the creation of Heaven and Hell with the occurence or avoidance of an accident is very inapt. You, the believer, are the one arguing for an omnipotent, purposeful god. Hell is no accident. To get back to Ebon's point, god made us flawed, knowing we would fail, and then sends us to hell for being who he made us. That is no god worthy of worship.
2) You write, "When we come to God He changes our character. He removes our own selfish desires in lieu of His." How is it he can do this after we've developed into adults, but not while he himself is busy creating us?

I'm sorry, but I left my suspension of disbelief at the theater, a rightful place in my book, and so I find your arguments wholly unconvincing.

Heriegns,

I'm not sure if we're still on topic anymore but...we inherit our nature, which is to sin against God, from Adam (Rom. 5:12-21). The proof-is-in-the-pudding so to speak, all of us have broken 1 or more of the 10 commandments at some point in our life.

Let's look past the fact that god made their sin inheritable as punishment and just agree that the sins of the parents can and should be visited upon the children according to what you just said. According to this, there should be no moral outrage at locking children up if their parents commit murder.

Say I'm driving my car at 70mph and there is a collision ahead of me...

Ah, but god caused the accident, didn't he? Maybe a better analogy would be that if you pray, god will take the wheel and help you survive, but if you don't, then god will hold the wheel fast and cause you to die...horribly.

One example of this is the woman caught in the adulterous relationship. The men who caught her in the act want to stone her and bring her to Jesus. Once Jesus convicts the men of their own sin He simply turns to the woman and says, "go and sin no more".

Oh, that's a bad example, considering that it was not actually part of the Bible when it first came out. That story was obviously added (according to textual scholars). So, it never happened (if anything in the Bible actually happened). I suggest you pick up Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" for a better discussion.

Ebon,

"First, free will does not require infinite choice, where every imaginable course of action is a realistic possibility. Even if the laws of nature and logic restrict our options to a limited set, we can still choose freely from among the members of that set. Free will is not a total absence of constraint, but rather the ability to select among the options that are available."

Sounds good to me.

"Free will also does not require a mental blank slate, where every possible course of action seems equally attractive and compelling. On the contrary, a free person can have dispositions, desires and character traits that incline them to choose a certain way in a given situation. This must be so, for a person who had no desires or inclinations would never act at all. Having a certain set of unchosen desires is a precondition for having a will in the first place. Just as with the previous point, we are still free because we can still choose among the options open to us."

Sounds great!

"What makes a person unfree is not acting in accordance with their desires, but being compelled to act against their desires."

This statement makes no sense. Are all of our desires good? Do they all lead to happiness, which is man’s goal? No. Being compelled to act against one’s desires is therefore a good thing in some situations (when they lead us to the bad). Therefore this statement is illogical.

"Finally, free will does not require randomness. Granted, a free person can choose to inject a kind of "radical choice" into their decision-making, permitting their decisions to be controlled by some external source of random input - whether it be a coin-flip or quantum noise in the synapses of the brain. But a random component is not required for an act to be free. Even a decision that involves no quality of randomness, one that is entirely determined by the facts and reasons available to the decision-maker, can be a free choice."

I don’t know what you’re saying here.

"After all, wouldn't the freest possible agent be one who is perfectly responsive to reason, who is perfectly aware of all the facts relevant to any decision, and who decides on that basis? Such a person would always make the decisions that were best for them without ever needing to choose randomly, and surely that is the purest and most desirable form of free will."

This sounds fantastic! If only man did not sin he would always choose the best thing for himself, resulting happiness everyday for his whole life.

"Anything less would be inferior, because being unaware of facts relevant to our choices diminishes, not increases, our freedom; it causes us to overlook possibilities we would otherwise have considered."

Absolutely! This is why man, if he does not believe in God diminish his freedom.

"Now see where these conclusions lead. Free will does not require unlimited choice, absence of desire, or randomness."

True

"A person whose choices are constrained by physical law and their own desires, and who chooses in accordance with those desires and with the relevant facts, still can be and is free in a way that is genuine, significant, and worth wanting. (In fact, each of us is such a person.)"

Yes, you’re right.

"Given all this, why couldn't an omnipotent deity have done things differently?
He could have, but who are we to question God’s ways? If he exists, then he created us. Who are we to question the God who created us? We are nothing, He is everything. Our intelligence in questioning, come from Him. One should not question Him and his ways, but figure out why He did what he did.
Such a being could have created a world where evil was a literal impossibility, where physical law is constituted by God's will and it is not possible to act in contravention to that will."

But He didn’t. It is too bad, life would be easier without evil.

"Or God could have created a world in which evil acts were physically possible, but in which human psychology would be different than it actually is, such that we only desire to choose the good."

But he didn’t. Man chooses evil sometimes, therefore sins. If God made us to only choose good we would be “unfree” to choose the bad. If God did not make us to desire only the good, then there must be desires for the bad. This contradicts your “unfree” statement at the beginning: What makes a person unfree is not acting in accordance with their desires, but being compelled to act against their desires.

If man has some desires that are bad, then it is reasonable that he should not do them; if he does do them then there should be a consequence. Therefore without consequence we do not know what is good. Hence Hell.

"To truly rule out evil in this world, our decisions would also have to be non-random, so that chance would not occasionally intervene and cause us to do evil despite our desires. In either of these worlds, human beings would truly be morally perfect."

Non-random, Meaning God chooses for us?

"None of these options, as we've seen, would turn humans into puppets or automata. We would still be truly and legitimately free. But in these worlds, there would be no sin or wrongdoing at all, and thus no evil, no suffering, no need to create an afterlife of torture or send earthly catastrophes as punishment. Why wouldn't God, if he exists, have created a world like this? It would have been superior to our own in every way."

Again, who are we to question God? If he exists he is infinite. We are trying to reason God’s ways in our finite mind. He is limitless, who are we to question Him?

"The force of this argument should be undeniable. In fact, in worldviews like the Christian one, God conferred on human beings a positive attraction to sin - a set of psychological inclinations that frequently bias our decisions toward disobedience."

No, you’re wrong. Christians do not believe that God gave man a positive attraction to sin. It is a result of the Fall of man, not a set of psychological inclinations. Yours is a false statement.

The term your getting at is concupiscence

Christian teaching is as follows: CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

As you see, man’s nature was weakened and he does incline to evil, but it was not something God conferred on human beings.

"If that isn't seen as taking away our free will, why couldn't he have done the opposite and instead given human beings an equally strong set of inclinations toward obedience?"

Because your previous statement is false, this is false

"In short, instead of original sin, why not original virtue? If God hates sin so much, why would he create a world that would all but ensure the maximum amount of it?"

This is a great question. The Great Why Question.
In both of your essay’s One More Burning Bush The argument from divine hiddenness: Where is God? and in All Possible Worlds The problem of evil. You have come up with some awesome questions about life and suffering. Why is there suffering, evil, and where is God is all this mess?

Allow me to sum up Catholic Teaching on this.

First, let’s define our terms so you know where I am coming from.

What is Suffering? Suffering is the state that occurs as the result of the experience of evil. Evil is the lack of something good.

Man suffers on account of evil, which is a certain lack, limitation or distortion of good. We could say that man suffers because of a good in which he does not share, from which in a certain sense he is cut off, or of which he has deprived himself. He particularly suffers when he "ought" - in the normal order of things - to have a share in this good, and does not have it" (Salvifici doloris, 7, Pope John Paul II).

Since evil is defined with reference to the good, there can be as many evils as there are goods. How has man experienced evil? You have done a wonderful job developing this in All Possible Worlds The problem of evil so I think you know…plus your alive and like every person experiences evil and suffering.

The question we all have then, is why? Let me develop this a little differently then you have in One More Burning Bush The argument from divine hiddenness: Where is God? and in All Possible Worlds The problem of evil.

Catholics teach that suffering is actually the occasion for a dialogue with God; "God expects the question and listens to it" (SD, 10). Putting the question about the meaning of suffering to God is a way of being faithful to His will, since He made us to do so. Suffering is not an end in itself, nor is it a consequence of sin that falls outside of or beyond God's Providence. He allows it because He intends to bring good out of it.

God does not respond to our question about the meaning of suffering with a philosophical, abstract, merely informational or explanatory answer, but with the call to follow Him (SD, 26). He also states that it takes a long time to enter fully into God's answer. The CCC echoes this: To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question (CCC, 309).

Faith must precede an understanding of suffering! Most often people respond to suffering with the question, "Why?" It is probably a mistake to assume that this is primarily an intellectual question. It is, rather, "Why me?" and this indicates that the question conveys a sense of injustice. Only a profound awareness of the divinely revealed meaning of life and of human history in terms of sin and redemption provides the context for grasping the meaning of suffering (CCC, 309), and this requires a fair degree of spiritual maturity. Again, no quick or simple answer suffices.

Is it God's will?

People often ask whether the suffering they or a loved one experiences is God's will. This shows that they grasp, at least intuitively, that only God can answer the question (SD, 9), and that there appears to be an incompatibility between the profession of faith in a good, wise, loving and all-powerful God and the reality of evil and suffering (CCC, 164). In a nutshell, the problem may be stated in this way: God is all-good and can only will what is good. He is also omnipotent, so that one ought to expect that His will be fulfilled in all matters. The experience of evil seems to negate this, indicating as it does that God's will is not always realized.

Catholic theological tradition distinguishes between God's antecedent will and His consequent will in order to preserve the compatibility-in-mystery of two fundamental truths: (1) God Who is love can will and cause only what is good; He cannot will and cause evil; (2) Nothing can happen without God's knowing it and in some way allowing or permitting (consenting to) it.

God only allows evil because (1) He wills the good of created freedom, which is the condition of beatitude or communion with Him; (2) He is able and intends to draw good from it (CCC, 311-12). Thus, we are invited to look beyond present suffering and reformulate the question as: "What is the good that God wants to draw out of this situation?" Even better: "What is the good that God wants to draw out of me?" Ultimately, God is more concerned about how we respond to suffering than He is about the suffering itself, and what He has revealed contains more about our response than it does about an intellectual answer to the question "Why?"

For the saints, responding improperly to suffering, falling short of the Christian ideal in this regard is the source of a worse kind of suffering. We should focus, then, on what we know, based on divine revelation.

Ebon, Divine Revelation presupposes Faith. Therefore when you talk about Christianity in your articles you are not seeing the whole picture because you have not learned it in Faith.

If we desire to enter into God's wisdom about suffering, it is helpful to ask: Why did Jesus not begin His public ministry earlier? Why did He wait until He was thirty? During this time, how many lepers died in Israel? And how many fell into despair because there was no answer or relief to their suffering? He had the power - where is the wisdom and love in waiting?

This line of questioning can be prolonged: Why did God not send His Son sooner to remedy the damage of sin? Why were there so many generations of Hebrew slaves in Egypt?

The answer is summed up in the expression, God's pedagogy. This is His wisdom in dealing with men. If God had sent the Holy Spirit five minutes after Adam and Eve sinned, would they have recognized the gift? If Jesus would have came to save man, right after the fall, would man have had the capacity to love God as he should?

Why didn’t God just save man right away, not give him the opportunity to Sin? We covered this already, but one does not know love without the absence of love.

If God could foresee all the suffering, how could He go ahead with creation?

This is a common version of the so-called problem of evil. It is nothing more than a projection onto God of what we think is the wisest and most loving thing to do if suffering is foreseen. We must remind ourselves that the first thing God foresaw was His own death on the Cross as His wise and loving response to sin - and this did not deter Him from proceeding with creation. This might be likened to a woman who, knowing the risks to her own health and life, out of love brings new life into the world. Foreknowledge of His own suffering did not deter God from loving by creating life and freedom.

Here again the image of God that must be uncovered is that of God as removed and unconcerned with what happens to man. As a God who would allow suffering because he is irrational.

Is all suffering bad? When we break a leg, is the pain that results bad, or does it tell the body it needs to be fixed?

Don’t assume on God’s wisdom.

"A rational deity would not demand moral perfection unless he created beings capable of supplying it. To say otherwise contradicts a basic point of morality: that you cannot blame someone for not doing what they are not capable of doing."

This statement is false. God does not demand moral perfection. He demands that we love Him and seek his will and repent when we fail; go to confession and then try again. Therefore his does not blame us for not doing what we are not capable of; he knows we are not perfect so he instituted the sacrament of confession.

"This is why, for example, we don't hold mentally ill people criminally responsible. We understand that their capacity to tell right from wrong is impaired, and that it wouldn't be just to treat them as we treat people who possess that capacity."

That’s right

"But God, if we believe the Christian logic, rejects this reasoning - he created human beings imperfect and then punishes them harshly for their imperfection."

This is a false statement, for reasons stated above.

"If, as the Bible says, God is "not willing that any should perish", then I am unable to see why he would not have created a world where that will could be realized."

First of all, you’re assuming on God’s will again,
Second, I am guessing you are quoting John 6:39 where is says: “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.”

But you need to read onto the next line, where it goes on to say that, “For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

There is a condition for eternal life, the Son. We must look towards him. It is not God’s will that man should perish; it is man who chooses Hell.

Well Adam, nice bunch of overly complicated gobbly gook from the same group of people who covered up the pervasive institutional evil of having sex with children. The proposed "saint" John Paul II looked the other way while all this was going on. Fat lot of good your CCC lessons did for the church hierarchy. Have you ever really studied the history of your church? While pious bishops wrote the kind of stuff you just quoted, other bishops were outside carving up Hypatia and dragging her pagan body through the streets. The Catholic Church as the authority on morality and the nature of man? I don't think so. Maybe an authority on EVIL.... Oh wait! I forgot! You can just go to confession at the end of of the week and all is forgiven!God surely is great!

Adam,

I see nothing in the warped, evil story of Christianity to make me think that the corrupt, destructive Catholic Church has any connection at all with any god, much less a benign one.

So to your 'who are we to question god' defense of Christian morality, I can only say--I see no gods here. Only power hungry, abusive church leaders. Who am I to question what they say? A decent human being.

Beats the god in the Christian fairy tale any day of the week.

But Linda, those aren't the Real Catholics(TM)! ;)

It's amazing the rhetorical hoops theologians are willing to jump through to make the insane contradictions seem almost plausible to believers who are willing to squint hard enough. Especially when problems like "why evil exists," aren't problems for naturalistic philosophies.

Natural disasters aren't evil without an omnimax god, they are just physics. Evil perpetrated by humans (or other animals) often arises from natural instincts that aid survival, but are difficult to keep in check at an appropriate level and are easy to twist and misuse when our imperfect abstract thought capabilities get a hold of them.

I may not be exactly right on that, but it is an answer to "Why does evil exist?" that I find at least as satisfying as Adam's and is encapsulated in far fewer words.

Adam,

The answer is summed up in the expression, God's pedagogy. This is His wisdom in dealing with men. If God had sent the Holy Spirit five minutes after Adam and Eve sinned, would they have recognized the gift? If Jesus would have came to save man, right after the fall, would man have had the capacity to love God as he should?

Same way if you saw your daughter get hit by a car, you wouldn't rush over immedately and help her. After all, if you helped her right away, how could she ever appreciate being helped? Besides, getting hit by a car would teach her a valuable lesson about looking both ways before she crosses the street next time.
What you're saying is similiar to that, except on a much larger, and much more painful scale.

Faith must precede an understanding of suffering! Most often people respond to suffering with the question, "Why?" It is probably a mistake to assume that this is primarily an intellectual question. It is, rather, "Why me?" and this indicates that the question conveys a sense of injustice. Only a profound awareness of the divinely revealed meaning of life and of human history in terms of sin and redemption provides the context for grasping the meaning of suffering (CCC, 309), and this requires a fair degree of spiritual maturity. Again, no quick or simple answer suffices.

Really? Faith has to procede an understanding of suffering? What about when you said:

Is all suffering bad? When we break a leg, is the pain that results bad, or does it tell the body it needs to be fixed?

Nothing in there about god or faith. When you feel pain it's because your body is not happy with it's current state of internal/external affairs. Bam! Just explained suffering without invoking faith. Not only that, but it explains why bad things happen to good people too, thus answering the "why me" question; namely because nature isn't concerned with your particular suffering, and isn't about bend over and accomidate you because you were really nice to that guy last week. Also, a lot of things that cause suffering (viruses, parasites, bacteria) are in fact looking out for their best interests, and your recovery means there death. All that without once invoking faith, sin, or your religion; easy enough.

God is all-good and can only will what is good. He is also omnipotent, so that one ought to expect that His will be fulfilled in all matters. The experience of evil seems to negate this, indicating as it does that God's will is not always realized.

Here's an interesting question for you; Does god desire good because it's good, or is it good because god desires it? For instance, suppose god actually existed, and came down to earth tomorrow and told everyone "rape and murder is now ok, and I encourage it". Would you now go out and start raping and murdering people? Answer at your leisure.

Ebon, Divine Revelation presupposes Faith. Therefore when you talk about Christianity in your articles you are not seeing the whole picture because you have not learned it in Faith.

i.e. " You haven't learned christianity by unconditionally accepting it without asking for evidence and ignoring evidence contrary to what it teaches, as well it's failures, so naturally you see what you think are failures. Well, not failures, because when the bible says something that's factually incorrect, it's only because you're not distorting and bending what it actually says. And isn't it weird how the bible always seems to agree with my view points? It's kind of like how all the music I like is good, but the music I don't like is bad; somehow I always pick out the best music; same with the bible. The way I interpret it always seems to be right, and other people's always seem to be wrong; I wonder why I'm so good at that".

In essence, that's what you said there sounded like to me.

If man has some desires that are bad, then it is reasonable that he should not do them; if he does do them then there should be a consequence. Therefore without consequence we do not know what is good. Hence Hell.

If man has some desires (which were created by god and allowed to exist by god not killing adam and eve after they ate from the tree, thus removing sin, and starting over, maybe having the hindsight to fence off the stupid tree next time) that are bad (bad because they involve sin, which was also created by god, even though god can't do evil because he's all good, which just means all the times in the bible he kills people it's actually good killing), then it should be reasonable that he doesn't do them (because god says "do as I say, not as I do", ala the killing example above, or when he forcibly impregnates the virgin mary; you think she could have said no?).
Therefore, without consequences we do not know what is good, Hence Hell (Hence a play that involves suffering and screaming forever, where there is no hope for escape or bettering oneself. Not only that, but this place only gets revealed after our death, when any hope of bettering ourselves in this world is totally gone; however, before that the consequences need to be invisible to all these adulters, homosexuals, atheists, murders, rapists (provided the last two weren't done in god's name), theives, members of different faiths, anyone working on the sabbath, or anyone who breaks any other single commandment without repenting for the nature god gave you. Same way that if you don't torture children, whether they're your own or not, for actting in a way contrary to what you feel god's will is, they'll never know what good is.)

Adam,

This statement makes no sense. Are all of our desires good? Do they all lead to happiness, which is man’s goal? No. Being compelled to act against one’s desires is therefore a good thing in some situations (when they lead us to the bad). Therefore this statement is illogical.

No, what Ebon said made perfect sense. He said that you are only free if your choices are not compelled. Your statement, however, contradicts what you say later:

But he didn’t. Man chooses evil sometimes, therefore sins. If God made us to only choose good we would be “unfree” to choose the bad. If God did not make us to desire only the good, then there must be desires for the bad. This contradicts your “unfree” statement at the beginning: What makes a person unfree is not acting in accordance with their desires, but being compelled to act against their desires.

If man has some desires that are bad, then it is reasonable that he should not do them; if he does do them then there should be a consequence. Therefore without consequence we do not know what is good. Hence Hell.

Your argument seems to be based on the idea that god gives us free will, meaning we can choose to do evil because we can't be free unless we can do evil. Further, you wish to state that god is good, yet you admit that being compelled to act against one's desires and do good is a good thing. This is contradictory.

Further, it should be pointed out that we don't truly have free will, or else we'd be able to choose the good at all times. Yet, we all need saving, do we not? This is because we all choose evil at some point according to Xianity. If we are all pre-destined to choose evil at some point, then how can you claim that we truly have free will? This also negates your argument that man does not have a positive attraction to sin.

This is why man, if he does not believe in God diminish his freedom.

Huh? Do our beliefs shape reality? Does god exist because you believe that he does? The fact that you need to "believe" instead of know that god exists is Ebon's whole entire point. If god exists and does not demonstrate this existence to all humans, then we are making choices without the benefit of all the information, and god is judging us without giving us crucial info.

Catholic theological tradition distinguishes between God's antecedent will and His consequent will in order to preserve the compatibility-in-mystery of two fundamental truths: (1) God Who is love can will and cause only what is good; He cannot will and cause evil

So, was killing almost the whole entire planet in a global flood a good thing? Turns out it was rather impotent considering god did not get rid of evil, so he killed all those people and animals for what? As a lesson?

We must remind ourselves that the first thing God foresaw was His own death on the Cross as His wise and loving response to sin - and this did not deter Him from proceeding with creation.

How was Jesus dying on the cross wise and loving?

God does not demand moral perfection.

Then we do we all need saving?

He could have, but who are we to question God’s ways?

And who are you to say that god's ways are good? If you can't question god's ways, then how do you make the determination that those ways have positive value?

Catholics teach that suffering is actually the occasion for a dialogue with God

So, god is the little boy in grade school that pulls little Suzie's hair because he likes her and doesn't know how else to get her attention? What a ridiculous god you've described.

How do you guys do that quote thing? in your posts?

Adam,
If you look at the line directly above the box where you type your comments, one of the options is blockquote. Use the less than and greater than around "blockquote" to start your quote. Use the less than and greater than around "/blockquote" to end your quote.

just testing

testaadfadfafadf

sweet, thanks :)

LindaJoy,

I'm sorry if you or anyone you know has been affected by the priest scandel in the Church. They are discusting and very painful events, and as a Catholic I am saddened and embarrassed by them. I very sorry that those things happened and I hope they never happen again.

Reed Ulvestad,

I'm not sure what you mean by Real Catholics. I am only trying to relay what the Church teaches. I am by no means an expert, but will continue to try my best.

OMGF,

As always, you bring up excellent questions. I will try to continue to bring up questions we can dialogue about.

All,

With my last post I have bitten off more then I can handle. Each one of you brought up great points but I do not have the time to answers all the objections nor am I qualified. I have to look a lot of this stuff up.

So, with your permission I would like to start over.

I want to continue our discussion about free-will, goodness, omnipotence of God, evil, and happiness, but I have to do it in a much smaller scale, each post being much shorter. Otherwise I will be bombarded with too many questions, and I am not smart enought to answer them all, nor do I have the time. I am a new dad, and I am not getting enough sleep :)

My hope is that after we are done with these 5 definitions we will all have a better understanding of evil and of our points of view.

So, to make this the best use of all of our times lets focus on each definition one at a time.

What is Evil? Please define; Then I will try and define, and once we agree on the definition we will move on.

Adam,

sweet, thanks :)

No worries.

I'm sorry if you or anyone you know has been affected by the priest scandel in the Church. They are discusting and very painful events, and as a Catholic I am saddened and embarrassed by them. I very sorry that those things happened and I hope they never happen again.

Should those priests go to heaven if they confess? Are they more worthy than an atheist that goes her whole life without molesting little boys, but doesn't confess to jaywalking?

I am a new dad, and I am not getting enough sleep :)

Congrats.

What is Evil? Please define; Then I will try and define, and once we agree on the definition we will move on.

Evil is rather hard to define. Certainly, we can say that evil is doing harm to others, but only because we have a moral sense. I wouldn't consider a lion attacking another animal for food to be evil.

I also consider natural disasters to be evil if there is an omni-max god.

OMGF,

Evil is rather hard to define. Certainly, we can say that evil is doing harm to others, but only because we have a moral sense. I wouldn't consider a lion attacking another animal for food to be evil.

Do you have problems with this?

First let me state the problem:

The problem can be stated very simply: If God is so good, why is His world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does He seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do ba