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Three Objections to Objectivism

I recently finished reading Ayn Rand's The Virtue of Selfishness, and I wanted to offer some comments on her moral philosophy.

There are several good reasons why I ought to like Ayn Rand. She was an atheist, and proudly so, and argued for the supremacy of reason as the only valid way of knowing. I agree with this. She denounced communism and supported capitalism. I agree with this as well. Her works are still very popular in some circles and offer a vision of a rational, productive life which many people find powerful and inspiring.

Nevertheless, there are also reasons why I don't like Rand - neither her as a person, nor her philosophy - and these reasons, in my judgment, far outweigh whatever factors are in her favor. These include her blatant hypocrisy in her adulterous relationship with Nathaniel Branden, the cult-like attitude of absolute obedience and conformity that characterized her movement's founding, and her genocidal belief that the European settlers of the Americas were fully within their rights to slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people of those continents, all because the Native Americans did not share the European concept of property rights. (Yes, she actually said that.)

This post will detail three of my primary objections to Rand's Objectivist philosophy, as it's expressed in TVOS and her other works. Combined, I believe they demonstrate that Rand's system of thought either contains fatal self-contradictions, or else would be destructive to the welfare of any society that was to adopt it.

The Objectivist Firefighter: Sacrificing Your Life For Strangers

Central to Objectivism is the notion that the individual's life is the supreme moral value. "The Objectivist ethics holds man's life as the standard of value — and his own life as the ethical purpose of every individual man" (p.25). An Objectivist may rationally sacrifice his life, if the cause were so important to him that he would not want to live if it were to fail. Central to Objectivism, however, is the notion that no one can ever have a duty to sacrifice his own life for the sake of others. "[Objectivism] means one's rejection of the role of a sacrificial animal, the rejection of any doctrine that preaches self-immolation as a moral virtue or duty" (p.27). Even when others are in danger, we have no obligation to assist them. "If the person to be saved is a stranger, it is morally proper to save him only when the danger to one's own life is minimal; when the danger is great, it would be immoral to attempt it..." (p.45).

Let's see how this principle would play out in a real-world situation. Cast your mind back to the morning of September 11, 2001, and ponder the situation from the point of view of a rescue worker, like a paramedic or a firefighter. The hijacked planes have crashed into the Twin Towers, which are in flames and badly damaged; it's plain to see they may collapse soon. Yet there are still thousands of people inside who could be saved. Let's say you're one of the first responders, as well as an Objectivist, and your superior orders you into the towers to rescue as many people as you can. How should you respond?

Here's how one real firefighter actually did respond:

I will always remember one panting reporter talking to a fireman who was shrugging into his respirator. "What are you doing?" "I'm going to that other tower," he said. "I think that other tower is going to collapse," said the reporter, seeming to forget that he was on the air. "You would do the same for me," the fireman said, and ran up the street.

And yet, from the principles just stated, it seems the Objectivist course of action is clear. Unlike the firefighter quoted above, the Objectivist rescue worker has to refuse - because he's being asked to risk his life for strangers, which can never be a moral duty according to Rand. In fact, since the preservation of one's individual life is the highest virtue, the consistent Objectivist not only ought to refuse to enter the towers, he ought to get himself out of the area and to safety as soon as possible, and never mind what happens to anyone else. As long as no one you personally know is in danger, your duty is to protect yourself and only yourself. This is what Ayn Rand calls morality; I think most people would more accurately describe it as contemptible cowardice.

Perhaps the objection could be raised that, having committed himself to the job already, the Objectivist is bound to follow through. But that just moves the problem back, because then the conclusion would seem to be that an Objectivist should always turn down any job - firefighter, policeman, infectious-disease specialist - that might potentially put his life in danger. These all entail putting yourself at risk for the sake of strangers, a thought intolerable to any consistent Objectivist. Yet, just as clearly, society needs people to do these jobs if it is to survive.

Ayn Pangloss: Conflicts of Interest Among Rational Men

Central to the Objectivist morality is the idea that "there are no conflicts of interests among rational men" (p.50). This is crucial to Rand's position because she argues that all people should make all their decisions on the basis of reason. If reason led people to want mutually exclusive things, then either some people would have to surrender the goals dictated by reason and seek something else (a thought Rand finds intolerable), or else no one would surrender their goals and the result would be an attempt to achieve a contradiction, which "can lead only to disaster and destruction" (p.51).

It's hard to see at first how this principle could apply in a capitalist economy. What if two people apply for the same job? Isn't there a genuine conflict of interest between them as to who will be hired?

Rand's answer to this question is that, just because two people want the same thing, it does not follow that they both rationally want it. "The mere fact that a man desires something does not constitute a proof... that its achievement is actually to his interest" (p.50). Rand argues that reason leads to the conclusion that capitalism is the best economic system possible, because it maximizes human productiveness and freedom, both of which are to everyone's interest. Thus a rational person accepts that, in the context of his entire life, competition on the basis of merit is a good thing, even if it may cause him to lose out occasionally. "He knows that the struggle to achieve his values includes the possibility of defeat" (p.53). An Objectivist also believes he is only entitled to what he has earned by his own effort, and in a rational, merit-based system, if he loses out to a superior applicant, that is the only outcome he had any right to expect. He has no rational interest in the job unless he earns and deserves it by his own effort. "Whoever gets the job, has earned it... The failure to give a man what has never belonged to him can hardly be described as 'sacrificing his interests'" (p.56).

So far, so good. But now, consider a case Rand never discusses: What if two equally qualified people apply for the same job? This certainly seems to be possible. Let's assume that there are two applicants who are equally intelligent, equally skilled, and would perform equally well if given the job. In that case, is it not in both their interests to get that job, and since only one of them can have it, is this not a contradiction? Rand fiercely disparages "whim", and yet in this situation it seems there could be no other way to resolve the deadlock.

But we need not even go this far. There's something else that Rand has overlooked: her doctrine requires that the market be not just free, but infallible. For if the market ever selects wrongly - that is, if it ever chooses the less qualified applicant for a given job - then I, as the more qualified but unsuccessful applicant, am faced with an irreconcilable contradiction: I want to live in a free-market society, which is in my rational interest, but I also wanted that job, the obtaining of which was also in my rational interest.

In that case, the act of obeying reason leads to a contradiction. Rand would hold that this is, by definition, impossible. That being so, she and her followers are committed to believing that the market always knows best, that its choices are always the correct ones. Otherwise, they're faced with the fatal self-contradiction of rationally wanting to live in a capitalist society, yet also rationally wanting something that it has denied them. Obviously, on this point the Objectivist philosophy clashes with reality: there undoubtedly are many situations where capitalist economies make erroneous decisions. A less rigid philosophy would recognize that, although a free society is in everyone's interest in the long term, that does not mean it will not make mistakes or block our interests on occasion; it's just that the alternatives are even worse.

"You Will Not Be Stopped": The Heartless Core of Objectivism

Since Objectivists reject all notions of a social safety net, it's natural to ask what would happen to the poor and needy in an Objectivist society. This is Ayn Rand's answer: "If you want to help them, you will not be stopped" (p.80).

This chilling response, which carries with it the unmistakable implication that she will not be participating in any such effort, illustrates Objectivist philosophy's cruel, heartless ethic of social Darwinism. Its guiding principle is not "we're all in this together", but rather "every man for himself" - and whatever misery strikes the worthless and the inferior as a result ought not to trouble the brave, heroic, superior souls whom Rand imagines are mankind's salvation. The parallels between this doctrine and the beliefs of tyrants throughout history should be too obvious to need pointing out.

Am I too harsh? Rand's defenders might point to passages like the following one, which condemns the Soviet Union, as proof that she does care about the suffering of others and wants to see it alleviated:

"Two generations of Russians have lived, toiled and died in misery, waiting for the abundance promised by their rulers, who pleaded for patience and commanded austerity, while building public 'industrialization' and killing public hope in five-year installments. At first, the people starved while waiting for electric generators and tractors; they are still starving, while waiting for atomic energy and interplanetary travel" (p.84).

This sounds very compassionate of her - until you remember that Ayn Rand believes that the free market is, by definition, infallible (see last point). In Objectivist philosophy, if you succeed it's because you deserve to succeed, and if you're poor it's because you deserve to be poor. Combined with Rand's repeated expressions of fierce disdain for "parasites" and "looters" and "moochers", it seems hard to escape the conclusion that a consistent Objectivist would never give any money or other assistance to others. After all, if they were deserving of your help, they wouldn't need it; they'd have already achieved success and security on their own through hard work and persistence. To an Objectivist, the way you prove you're worthy of help is by proving you don't need help. And the reason Rand was so upset about the starving citizens of the USSR wasn't because they were starving; it was because they were starving under the wrong ideology. In an Objectivist society, people might still starve, but we can at least comfort ourselves with the knowledge that they must have deserved it.

March 21, 2008, 8:35 am • Posted in: The RotundaCommentOptions Bookmark/Share This

177 Comments

In fact, since the preservation of one's individual life is the highest virtue, the consistent Objectivist not only ought to refuse to enter the towers, he ought to get himself out of the area and to safety as soon as possible, and never mind what happens to anyone else. As long as no one you personally know is in danger, your duty is to protect yourself and only yourself. This is what Ayn Rand calls morality; I think most people would more accurately describe it as contemptible cowardice.

I agree with many of your points here Ebon but this one I will disagree with. The act of staying away from the tower is perfectly aligned with our survival instincts; it is perfectly natural for someone to not charge head-first into a very dangerous situation. My argument is this: no bad is resulting from the firefighter keeping his/her distance, but at the same time, no good is happening as a result of this action/inaction either. I wouldn't say it's "contemptible cowardice", but simply "not praiseworthy in any manner". What is extraordinary in this case is the courage of the firefighters who go in spite of their survival instincts telling them not to.

I would never bother to read a Rand book, so I thank you for shedding some light on how this person thinks. There are many instances, like the firefighter above, where someone sacrifices his or her life for another; this is uniquely human and humane.
Objectivism, eeh gads, yet another philosophy on life.

Excellent post. I've always had trouble with other atheists who subscribe to Objectivism (and its parent, Libertarianism). It's biggest problem being that it assumes too much perfection in rationality and the market.

her genocidal belief that the European settlers of the Americas were fully within their rights to slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people of those continents, all because the Native Americans did not share the European concept of property rights. (Yes, she actually said that.) [Bold added]

Please cite Ayn Rand's exact words, and an exact source, where she says Europeans have a right to enslave the native people.

I have read most of Rand's writings. Nowhere have I seen any statement even remotely supporting your claim that one individual has a right to enslave others. To the contrary, everything she has written in her works on philosophy supports the opposite.

If you have not created a straw man, then you need to prove your case.

My biggest problem with Rand is her rigidity. I think her principles are basically sound, but need to be tempered with a layer of compassion. It's pretty clear her work was in some measure a reaction to the farcical circumstances in the Soviet Union. So she constructed a theoretical society that was its antithesis. The ideal would be more moderate.

Regarding the impulse to risk one's life to help others: I would agree that a firefighter rushing into damaged towers is noble and heroic. But I disagree that failing to do so would be cowardly. The key point is that self-sacrifice should be voluntary, not required. Which makes it that much more poignant when people do choose to put their lives at risk for others.

Where Rand goes wrong is when she says it would be immoral to make that choice. I've always felt that people who act sacrificially are getting something out of the deal. Even if it's simply an elevated sense of themselves as heroes. Saving other people's lives is pretty heady stuff. Then there's the daredevil aspect about facing death and danger. I'm not saying that first responders aren't heroes--they are. But they also get some very unique personal rewards. And that corresponds to a kind of self-interest for them.

Please cite Ayn Rand's exact words, and an exact source, where she says Europeans have a right to enslave the native people.

Gladly. The quote can be found in Ayn Rand Answers: The Best of Her Q & A. Amazon gives you the ability to search inside the book (see here). The quote in question appears on page 103 of Amazon's searchable edition, near the end of the section "Politics and Economics". Here it is:

Now, I don't care to discuss the alleged complaints American Indians have against this country. I believe, with good reason, the most unsympathetic Hollywood portrayal of Indians and what they did to the white man. They had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages. The white man did not conquer this country. And you're a racist if you object, because it means you believe that certain men are entitled to something because of their race. You believe that if someone is born in a magnificent country and doesn't know what to do with it, he still has a property right to it. He does not. Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights - they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures" - they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using.

...you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights.

I think you've misunderstood many of the arguments that Ayn Rand posed.

First, on the count of the Native Americans: if they don't own their land -- and by their own accounts they do not -- then there is no reason one cannot claim it for his own use. Simply saying that other people can't use what you don't want to use is petty and foolish. Also, her comment on that point is not that white people (or anyone with a proper sense of rights) could just come in and "slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people of those continents." She made many other remarks that make that clear, so there you are blatantly misrepresenting her views. Shame on you!

Second, with regard to emergency workers and people who enter into dangerous situations to do their jobs, the Objectivist position is not that it is immoral for firefighters to go into buildings to save people ever. The point is that it is immoral to go into those buildings to save people for their own sake. The egoistic (according to Rand's formulation) firefighter might still do so because that is what they've chosen for their job according to the values that he or she has chosen to sustain and promote his life. Now, in the case of savings strangers when doing so will certainly cause one to die, she would not approve. I'm not sure on what grounds you think one should approve of blatant, suicidal acts like that, though.

Check out her essay "The Ethics of Emergencies" as well. You may find it helpful in understanding her view.

Third, simply because two rational men want the same thing and one must inevitably win and the other lose, does not represent a conflict of interest. That is mere competition and in losing (rightly or wrongly), one need not "surrender the goals dictated by reason and seek something else." Take the case of two people running for office. Only one can hold the office. So, one wins. The other one may be sad about it, but they needn't give up the goal of running for that office next term. The question of holding a particular job is even easier. Let's say you want to be CEO and they hire someone else. Well, there are other companies you could work for, if just being CEO is your goal. If your objective is to hold a particular job within a particular company (and assuming there is only one of those jobs ever), then the fact that someone else has the job doesn't stop you from working to be the best qualified person and replacing them or being hired when they leave.

And what if the hiring manager is an irrational person and doesn't hire the most qualified person? So. The rational candidate may observe the injustice and feel rightfully angry, but he has no right to force that person to be rational and hire him. He need not surrender his principles, either. In fact, the case would present him with countervailing reasons for his desire for that job. Why would he want to work for someone so unjust?

When Ayn Rand speaks of conflicts of interest among rational men, she is not speaking of a particular job or item they both wish to claim. She is discussing the principles behind their actions. The rational man does not want to be a leech and neither does he want someone leeching off of him. When two rational people compete, they compete with their rational faculties and encourage others to do the same so that they may be judged by their merits.

Losing removes only that particular instance of that goal. It does not remove their ability to pursue it, nor does it mean that they can't pursue something else that is identical or in the same line with their values and objectives.

To fuss and pout about the fact that two people cannot possess the same particular thing at the same time would be silly and is obviously not a situation Rand was referring to in her statement about conflicting interests.

Tara Smith does a good job of exploring this situation in her book *Ayn Rand's Normative Ethics* as well.

Fourth, no, Ayn Rand did not praise charity as a virtue as so many religionists and altruists do. In her interview with Playboy, she made the following remark:

"My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong with helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue."

So, she would not advocate running out into the street and throwing your life savings into the air for just anyone who passes by. She would recommend that when you give to charity, that they are not supporting things that are antithetical to your life and happiness. Would you donate money to the communist party? I should hope not. They don't have your interests in mind.

Finally, Ayn Rand did not think that individuals are infallible. I am being sure to say "individuals" because your comments mix up individual cases and the broad concept of the market.

At the broadest of levels, free markets do inexorably drive toward greater wealth and prosperity over all. This does not mean that everyone comes to possess the same amount of wealth -- quite the opposite and necessarily so. Compare the wealthiest people of the Dark Ages to the wealthiest people today. Even in basic, concrete terms of luxury and material possessions, the wealthy people of today make whole continents of people from the Middle Ages look like paupers one and all. For the comparatively more free systems, the poorest people are wealthier than the poorest of people in less free systems.

On an individual level, a person might be relatively poor compared to others within the market for a great number of reasons. They might be lazy moochers who just feed off of charity and welfare. They may have suffered some devastating loss and are building their wealth up from a very low level to recover.

The concept of just deserts that you've invoked when talking about poverty is extremely narrow and does not accurately reflect Rand's view on the subject.

Rand's philosophy is far more robust than the view that you could get through the Virtue of Selfishness, which sketches out major issues. I hope that you will continue to explore it.

I highly recommend Tara Smith's book mentioned above. It's a far more robust discussion and addresses several issues that you've mentioned.

While there is a lot of overlap between Libertarians and Objectivists, one big difference I have noticed is that a lot of Objectivists seem very gung ho about a militaristic foreign policy and are pretty much unrecognizable from neocons. The Libertarian foreign policy position, as expressed by Ron Paul in the Republican debates was of a non-interventionist foreign policy. Libertarians see, and rightly I would argue, that militarism abroad hurts our freedom here at home.

As for the Native Americans, while they did not have the concept of property rights in the sense that we understand it, such as deeds of title, I am sure that each tribe had a sense that certain lands were theirs to use for hunting and such, and in the absence of Europeans, Native Americans would fight each other over lands that contained plants and wildlife upon which they depended on food for survival.

[...] an Objectivist should always turn down any job - firefighter, policeman, infectious-disease specialist - that might potentially put his life in danger. These all entail putting yourself at risk for the sake of strangers, a thought intolerable to any consistent Objectivist. Yet, just as clearly, society needs people to do these jobs if it is to survive.

All jobs (in fact, every action) implies some potential risk of putting one's life in danger. In a free market, if no one wants to take on a certain job, the wage of that job will raise. So, in an Objectivist society, of course there will be firefighters, and they will probably be paid well for the important job they are doing.

Think of it as a lottery -- if nothing happens in your town ("a winning ticket"), the firefighters will live in luxury. If a firefighter lives in a city struck by a terrorist attack, she may loose her life on duty.

Some people prefer living a safe life with low wages, while others like to take on more risk and thus live in luxury (or die). I would say that both choices can be rational.

You loose all intellectual credibility when you outright begin your post with two lies and one serious distortion:

Your two lies are merely second-handed repitition of charges you picked up from somewhere. The following are the two lies: "These include her blatant hypocrisy in her adulterous relationship with Nathaniel Branden, the cult-like attitude of absolute obedience and conformity that characterized her movement's founding,"

First, the words "hypocrisy" and "adulterous" are entirely out of place in a relationship that was mutually consented upon by all people involved openly, including Ayn Rand's husband. Second, your reliance on second-hand sources and/or those with a "dog in the fight" only belies your lack of intellectual honesty in uncovering the truth; it reveals more your adamant zeal to justify your preconcieved emotionalism against Ayn Rand.

If you had read the "Journals of Ayn Rand" (which is as primary of a source as you can get to her life today) or the book "The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics", which relies and excerpts heavily from her journals as well as from two other books written by the Brandens on her life, you would be able to easily identify the lies and deceit spread by her early followers that smother and smear Ayn Rand's true character.

Your other lie regarding the charges of cultism are also thoroughly unsubstantiated. Even a careful reading of the link you provided will substantiate my claim. Much of the early cultish traits surrounding Ayn Rand was started by and persisted due to the sole encouragement of Nathaniel Branden and his behavior (who's also probably one of your sources regarding the lie mentioned above). If you read the link you provided, note that it was Nathaniel Branden who monitored Ayn Rand's correspondence with people and erected a grotesque caricature of the "Randian" man. For example, the Justin Raimondo's account and Tibor Machan's encounter with Ayn Rand both mention the significant role that Nathaniel Branden played in screening people, creating an air of exclusivity, and acting ruthlessly with others during his NBI Lecture series. Much of this was occurring without the knowledge of Ayn Rand, who for obvious reasons, was more occuppied with finishing her 1000+ page magnum opus Atlas Shrugged, and then was piled with speaking and writing engagements, in addition to publishing her various non-fiction works, in the immediate wake of Atlas fame.

Likewise, Rothbard--a full-blown anarchist--had a major axe to grind against Ayn Rand because she condemnded his anarchist philosophy in the sharpest words (calling it subjective nihilism and a hippie movement of the right), and moreover, she won over to her side many of his own students, notably George Reisman--the economist who wrote the seminal "Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics." Read Reisman's account of how Rothbard had a falling out with Ayn Rand and then went on to avenge his embarrasment by smearing her name.

Your third point is the serious distortion. You said: "her genocidal belief that the European settlers of the Americas were fully within their rights to slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people of those continents, all because the Native Americans did not share the European concept of property rights. (Yes, she actually said that.)"

Now, since you provided her quote yourself, take some time to read it and highlight for me the area where she said "slaughter, despoil, and enslave the native people of those continents" (because those are the words you used). I hope you do know the difference between saying that one is within his rights to claim an unowned piece of property (squatters have no right to a property, just as being born in a hospital does not give you the right to that bed, or the hospital, or the city it is based in), and saying I'm going to "slaughter and enslave you" because I want to own this property.

The rest of your post was not worth reading because, as I said in the beginning, you've already lost all credibility when you began the post with two lies and a third serious and deliberate distortion.

Your first point is an appeal to duty. "Sacrifice" is a moral imperative to suffer or die. What creates this imperative? And is the firefighter in your example taking a calculated risk, or is he choosing to sacrifice his life (i.e. end it) out of a sense of duty? If the latter, what good can possibly come of it, and for whom? We've lost the firefighter in addition to the other victims.

Also, see here: http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/emergencies.html

In your second point, you fabricate an impossible situation, where two applicants for a job are identical in all respects. And you are treating the job as something metaphysically given, ignoring the fact that the employer is a human being with his own independent value-judgments.

There is no conflict in the situation where you want to live in a free society, but you also want that job that was given to your lesser. Should you really want to work for the kind of employer who chooses the inferior candidate? What does that say about you? And what is the alternative? To MAKE them hire you?

Link to more information: http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/traderprinciple.html

You attribute something to Rand that isn't hers; the idea that markets are infallible. Where does that omnipotence come from? The market is just a collection of individuals acting on their own judgment. The alternative is to force them to act against their judgment. How would that help, and who would do the forcing?

Link to more information: http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/freemarket.html

Your third point is again an appeal to duty. Where does such a moral imperative come from? What premises must you accept in order to arrive at it? And what do your words mean in practice? Ayn rand says, in effect: "Be charitable if you want, no one will stop you." What's the alternative? In effect: "Be charitable, or I will make you."

An Objectivist approach to "helping others" is to achieve, and to let achievement inspire others to achieve, to show them that it's possible and proper.

Ayn Rand on compassion: http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/compassion.html

Now, since you provided her quote yourself, take some time to read it and highlight for me the area where she said "slaughter, despoil, and enslave the native people of those continents" (because those are the words you used). I hope you do know the difference between saying that one is within his rights to claim an unowned piece of property (squatters have no right to a property, just as being born in a hospital does not give you the right to that bed, or the hospital, or the city it is based in), and saying I'm going to "slaughter and enslave you" because I want to own this property.

Well, if we're talking about someone baking a cake. And I say, "It's alright." It's a bit of a distortion for someone else to say: "Oh no, he didn't say specifically that it was all right to bake a cake, he just said 'it was alright.'"

Slaughter, despoil, and enslave the native people of those continents; that's what actually happened. Rand seems to think, for whatever reason, that it was alright.

Thank you, Ebonmuse. You have confirmed what I suspected. Nowhere in the passage you cited--which by the way is an edited transcript of an off-the-cuff comment, not an element of her published writings--is there any evidence that Rand held that Europeans had a right to enslave Amerinds.

Once, again, I will ask you if you have evidence of such a position. If not, I urge you to reconsider your inference--and, more importantly, the method by which you arrived at it.

...her 1000+ page magnum opus Atlas Shrugged...

I actually read that. It sucked.

Ergo, you are wrong. I won't deal with the first two (her personal character is none of my business), but your attitude towards the natives is disturbing. Last I checked, certain groups had concepts and others didn't. However, the ones that dealt with the Europeans the most definately did- they tended to be agricultural groups, and farmers always recognize property. I also don't see how the land is "unowned". Although there are cases where the entire native population has died from disease and the Europeans moved in (Pilgrims) for the most part expansion was accomplished by killing those in the way.

You basically commit the flaw of overestimating how different Native Americans are. Although people can go for extremely large cultural variations, certains things are very constant because there are so few answers. Land use is one of them. Farmers may use different terminology, but it all boils down to one thing- you need permission of farmer A to use farmer A's land.

Thank you, Ebonmuse. You have confirmed what I suspected. Nowhere in the passage you cited–which by the way is an edited transcript of an off-the-cuff comment, not an element of her published writings–is there any evidence that Rand held that Europeans had a right to enslave Amerinds.

Was that directed at me? I'm not Ebon. You can identify the posters by looking directly below their post in the "Comment by:" section.

And nice try, by the way, but it's just equivocation. One does not have to utter exact words to make their position clear. The English language depends on context and one isn't out of line to make distinctions based on it. It might be that Rand was ignorant of the method by which the European settlers took land from the Native Americans, but I doubt it. By justifying the actions of the European Settlers, she seems to gave tacit approval to their methods. I don't think that's an unfair interpretation.

I'll admit that I'm not a big fan of Rand's. I think that in economic matters (i.e. a free market), that selfishness can be a good thing, it doesn't always apply well to other human interactions.

Please note that Objectivism is not libertarianism. Libertarianism deals with the legal requirements that we have as opposed to the moral ones. For example, I think that we all have a moral obligation to stop and help a stranded motorist, but we should not have a legal one. You may think less of me for not wanting to help, but you shouldn't be able to use the police power of the government to punish me for refusing to render aid.

I fail to see how the passage Ebon quoted supports the interpretation that Ayn Rand thought "the European settlers of the Americas were fully within their rights to slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people." Nothing said in the passage rationally leads to the inference that she supported the European settlers in slaughtering or enslaving the Indians. To despoil is to deprive them of their property through the use of force, and I see nothing in Ayn Rand's passage that leads to the inference that she thought the Indians owned those goods or the Europeans should take them by force. The only valid inference I see is that she thought European settlers had the right to move and settle there. There is nothing in the quoted text that rules out the idea of peaceful cohabitation.

(Disclaimer: I know very little about the Indians of that time period and even less of Ayn Rand. I am looking at the dispute from a purely linguistic perspective.)

Burgess Laughlin:

Thank you, Ebonmuse. You have confirmed what I suspected. Nowhere in the passage you cited–which by the way is an edited transcript of an off-the-cuff comment, not an element of her published writings–is there any evidence that Rand held that Europeans had a right to enslave Amerinds.

Once, again, I will ask you if you have evidence of such a position. If not, I urge you to reconsider your inference–and, more importantly, the method by which you arrived at it.

Lets go through this point by bloody point:
1) The passage cited clearly states not only acceptance of, or approval of, but celebration of, the actions of the European settlers - accepting no complaint against them despite the clear historical evidence for their abhorrent behaviour.
2) A transcript of a comment is just as valid as, and maybe even more so than, books which have gone through the softening-up process of editing and publication. If you want to get a reasoned theory, read her books: if you want to get her own viciousness, listen to her words.
3) Are you by any chance an Objectivist yourself? You seem to display exactly the kind of cultish-hysterical reaction which has been an enduring criticism of objectivists (Ebon was particularly gentle on this point).

I think it is important to understand that selfishness is a natural trait but it is not a trait that should be idolized. The endless pursuit of personal happiness at any cost is a recipe for grief. I find that the acceptance of the reality of the world and my own place in it is the best source of peace.

Ayn's position on Native Americans seems to imply that the Europeans were justified in the taking of the North American continent based on social concepts of property rights. This is wrong because it assumes that the Europeans would not have taken over North America regardless of the social concepts or culture of the Native Americans. When has a war or conquest ever been taken that was not because of the self serving purpose of the instigator? The Native Americans had cities (ie Incas and Aztecs) and that didn't stop Cortez did it? Give me a break, the Europeans were selfish, had superior might, and therefore took what they wanted because they could.

Opinion: Ebon is completely justified in his opinion of Ayn Rand. Any viewpoint that promotes the pursuit of selfish pleasure at the expense of others is doomed. The truth is that the pursuit of selfish pleasure at the micro scale does not equate to harmony on the macro scale.

I am not that big a fan of philosophy so I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.

Two other Objectivists have already exposed the lies and distortions of the original post, something that is very disappointing indeed given my initial high regard to the owner of this webpage. I think Ebon, for his obvious dislike of Rand, seriously misunderstands the position he attempts to attack. For the benefit of readers who are honestly interested, I'll take one of his points that demonstrates that Ebon's oft-used faulty thought-experiments are, once again, faulty:

So far, so good. But now, consider a case Rand never discusses: What if two equally qualified people apply for the same job? This certainly seems to be possible. Let's assume that there are two applicants who are equally intelligent, equally skilled, and would perform equally well if given the job. In that case, is it not in both their interests to get that job, and since only one of them can have it, is this not a contradiction? Rand fiercely disparages "whim", and yet in this situation it seems there could be no other way to resolve the deadlock.

Ebon has missed one vital point: being qualified to get the job requires that one actually be offered it! Even if two equally qualified people apply for the same job, they both know that only one of them can get it, and that part of "deserving" the job is actually being offered it. To see why this is not a conflict of rational interests, consider the alternative: one of the men would have to believe he should be given the job, even though the employer chooses not to give it to him!

Also, the free market doesn't have to be infallible. In the free market, employers use their best rational judgment when dealing with other men freely, whether it be fellow traders or employees. The rational person accepts that other people must use their free rational choice when deciding whether to deal with him or not. They MAY make the wrong decision but 1. if a decision is IRRATIONAL then clearly then is no rational conflict of interest anyway, and 2. it is in the rational self-interest of every individual that other individuals (including himself) be totally free who they choose to deal with or not. Just as there are no conflicts of interest amongst rational people, there is no conflict for a rational person between his rational values. Even if a rational person was truly the right man for a job, he knows that since other rational people must succeed (employ the right person) or fail (employ the wrong person) based on their free decisions, they are able to reap the rewards of downsides of good/bad decisions. This overriding principle is of more value than any particular job/decision that he or something else has to make. Once again, there is no conflict.

I have still yet to see Ebon elucidate his theory of morality on any objective basis. Not surprising, since no such basis of his exists. Anyway, this comment was for the benefit of those who might have thought Ebon was onto something with his "flaws" in Rand's moral theory. But as others have pointed out, this was not a very insightful or honest attempt to attack Objectivism. Disappointing.

Ebon is completely justified in his opinion of Ayn Rand. Any viewpoint that promotes the pursuit of selfish pleasure at the expense of others is doomed. The truth is that the pursuit of selfish pleasure at the micro scale does not equate to harmony on the macro scale.

Well Jeff, there's your problem right away: Ayn Rand NEVER promoted Selfishness at the expense of others. Ever. The whole principle behind rational egoism is that no man should be sacrificed to other men, or have other men sacrificed to him.

It is never in one's rational self-interest to live off, or at the expense of, others.

Also, Ayn Rand never advocating the pursuit of selfish 'pleasure'. Unlike utilitarians, she never saw happiness or suffering as the standard for morality. She saw rationality as the standard - that which objectively benefits or harm man's life. The single minded pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others is immoral, and most certainly NOT Objectivism.

If you're going to attack Ayn Rand, it would be good for you to actually know what you're talking about. All you did is read a few lines that attacked a strawman and got it all wrong.

Just thought I'd clear that up for you.

Hi all,

I'm pleased to see that my major points haven't been successfully disputed yet by anyone. In fact, several commenters defending Rand have substantially confirmed some of them.

First, let me talk about Rand's views on the Native Americans. Burgess Laughlin said this:

Nowhere in the passage you cited... is there any evidence that Rand held that Europeans had a right to enslave Amerinds.

What he seems to have missed (or wishes to overlook) is this part:

...you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights.

According to Rand, Native Americans had no rights that anyone was bound to respect. What can you do to someone who has no rights? Obviously, you can do anything you like, up to and including enslaving and slaughtering them. And Rand cheers on those crimes, not condemning them in any way. On the next page, she says: "Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent, and it's great that some of them did."

Read that again: it's great that some of them did. She's glad that the Europeans "took over" the continent, decimating the native inhabitants as they did so. She dismisses natives' protests as "alleged complaints", and calls them "savages" who had no rights to the land, leaving it open for exploitation by the first capitalists who arrived. There is no need for interpretation here: Ayn Rand, in her own words, supported and cheered on the genocide of native Americans by capitalist Europeans. In her worldview, people who don't hold to her conception of capitalism and individual rights are subhumans who have no rights at all that anyone is obligated to respect, and people who do hold to her morality are within their rights to enslave, expel, or wipe out those wretched savages, as they see fit. This is a disgusting, evil view, the mirror image of the communist genocides Rand condemned so vociferously. She may not have recognized her hypocrisy in doing so, but anyone who's defending these awful dogmas nowadays should be ashamed of themselves.

I particularly like this comment by Ergo, which so clearly sums up the vicious absurdity at the heart of the Objectivist view:

I hope you do know the difference between saying that one is within his rights to claim an unowned piece of property (squatters have no right to a property, just as being born in a hospital does not give you the right to that bed, or the hospital, or the city it is based in), and saying I'm going to "slaughter and enslave you" because I want to own this property.

In Ergo's eyes, Native Americans were "squatters", and Europeans were within their rights to claim the land of the Americas. Just think about that for a moment: the Native Americans, who had been born, lived and died on this continent for thousands of years and hundreds of generations, who knew all its wild plants and animals intimately, who had cultivated and transformed the land, who had built villages and homes and cities here, were "squatters", and the land they lived on was "unowned". Meanwhile, the capitalist Europeans, the instant they stepped off the boat, became the rightful owners of the land and were fully within their rights to "claim" it and to expel anyone who was currently living there.

And how, exactly, do Objectivists imagine that expulsion was carried out? Do they think it was done peacefully? Even if you hold that the natives shouldn't have been killed or enslaved, granting Europeans the right to expel them would by itself allow for about 90% of the atrocities committed against them. Do the words "Trail of Tears" ring a bell? That is exactly the kind of genocidal mania that anyone who supports Rand's views on this subject is supporting. She was a profoundly evil person who held profoundly evil views; I can't put it any more plainly than that.

evanescent---
You are right that I am no student of Rand and made my comments based off the few lines written here and the wikipedia stuff that I read prior to posting. I will say this however; reality shows that there are people that die for others every day. Some are heroes, some victims, some martyrs, some murderers. Reality also shows that the universe is random and chaotic, and that to survive then you must be competitive. To compete implies conflict, rational or not.
I also encourage you to not talk down to me as you did with your last sentence since it just encourages me to dislike you from the start rather than consider your position.

Next, let's talk about Objectivism and firefighting. Several people have claimed that, if you as an Objectivist have freely chosen to help others, then you could rationally enter the burning Twin Towers. This is a serious distortion of Rand's views.

In Objectivism, the supreme moral value is the individual's own life, and your highest moral duty is to preserve your life. Rand would have rejected - in fact, she did reject - any idea that you could rationally value the life of a stranger enough to risk your own life for them. I quote again from TVOS:

"If the person to be saved is a stranger, it is morally proper to save him only when the danger to one's own life is minimal; when the danger is great, it would be immoral to attempt it..." (p.45)

Immoral to attempt it. Rand stated flatly that individuals have a positive moral duty not to put themselves at risk for strangers' sake. This follows directly from her view that self-interest is the highest, inviolable moral principle. The idea of wages doesn't enter into it at any point; obviously, you can't spend your money if you're dead. According to Rand, a rational person would never choose to put his own life at risk for the sake of a stranger. And that means no Objectivists are going to be firefighters, or policemen, or any other job that might call upon them to do this - or if they do take that job, they'll walk off it the first time they're asked to do something that might put them in danger. I believe my point here stands unaltered.

Ebonmuse:

In Ergo's eyes, Native Americans were "squatters", and Europeans were within their rights to claim the land of the Americas. Just think about that for a moment: the Native Americans, who had been born, lived and died on this continent for thousands of years and hundreds of generations, who knew all its wild plants and animals intimately, who had cultivated and transformed the land, who had built villages and homes and cities here, were "squatters", and the land they lived on was "unowned". Meanwhile, the capitalist Europeans, the instant they stepped off the boat, became the rightful owners of the land and were fully within their rights to "claim" it and to expel anyone who was currently living there.

Ah, at last, the philosophical elements of my legal degree can be used (court cases don't really allow for the flexing of the old theorist muscles). The argument that the 'lands of savages' was in fact unowned was the original legal justification (terra nullius) used by European colonisers - you'd think Randians would have moved on since then, but no! It was an abhorrent legal farce when it was used, and it remains so. The Australian courts have even acknowledged this in the case of Mabo, amongst others.

On the topic of competition between rational people, I again note that people are confirming my point for me: Rand believes that the choices made by the market are best because they were made by the market. As SPQR said:

There is no conflict in the situation where you want to live in a free society, but you also want that job that was given to your lesser. Should you really want to work for the kind of employer who chooses the inferior candidate?

So, in other words, if you were morally qualified and you didn't get the job, that should prove that you didn't want it in the first place, because why would you want to work for someone who didn't recognize your superiority? Sour grapes indeed! Again, my point stands: Rand requires that a capitalist society always choose infallibly (which it manifestly does not). Otherwise, a contradiction has been created by your rationally wanting to live in a free market, but also rationally wanting things to which you are entitled (by virtue of being the best candidate), but you cannot have because of failures of that free market.

This comment by evanescent, I think, is an example of the word-mangling games Objectivists tend to play to get around problems like this:

To see why this is not a conflict of rational interests, consider the alternative: one of the men would have to believe he should be given the job, even though the employer chooses not to give it to him!

Yes, and? If the employer doesn't offer me the job, then it's not in my interest to have it? If I deserved the job, it would have been offered to me? Again, he's simply restated and confirmed my point that Objectivists hold a naive, Panglossian view of the market as always making the best choices.

I'll address the issue of charity in an Objectivist society after dinner.

I read a biography of Ayn Rand some years ago (I don't recall the title) and got the strong impression that the truly horrifying suffering that she and her family endured in Russia warped her mind at a young age.

The rest of her life, and her philosophy, seem to flow very directly from that poisoned beginning, and while I felt somewhat sorry for her, I have to agree with Ebon that she wound up promoting and living a seriously evil viewpoint.

Thankfully Objectivism appeals only to a small (but persistent) minority and will never gain real traction in society. It's just operating too far away from reality to become viable.

Everyone who has here argued that the Indians had some sort of right to North American land has *collectivized* the Indians. Collectives do not own land just because the collective has beaten off their neighbors. Which Indian in a tribe owns what portion of the tribal land? None and all. They have no *property rights*. Did they recognize the right to life of other members of their tribe or of members of neighboring tribes? No? Did they enslave other tribes people? Yes. The idea that the Europeans somehow violated Indian Rights is unmitigated shinola.

Were all Europeans paragons of virtue and respecters of individual rights? Of course not. That did not come into being until 1776. However, *northern* Europeans DID bring a more consistent and intelligible *trader principle* with them (however inconsistently implemented). It is that trader principle that opened up North America in a way that Central and South America could not experience. The Southern Europeans did not respect such trading.

Never did Ayn Rand approve of the "slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people", in the willy nilly fashion Ebonmuse suggests. However, regardless of their race, she did approve of forcible resistance to those who initiated violence against others, and the Indians did initiate such violence. Their tribal collectives treated Europeans as an opposing tribal collective, and waged theft, slavery and war on them just as they waged war on other Indian tribes.

In short, Ebonmuse is wrong on every count, and the above is just one example. Go and do due diligence on these subjects instead of taking little excerpts and mangling them. It appears plain that your accusation on word-mangling is a projection of your own methods onto Objectivist thinking that you have failed to grasp. Objectivists, not Objectivist thinking, can vary in their expression of ideas, especially extemporaneously and may misrepresent an idea... but hardly to the egregious level of dishonesty revealed in your opening paragraphs.

I read "Anthem" when I was about 15 or 16. I thought Rand was a nutjob then, and I still think so now. Even more so now, perhaps, since these days I've actually developed a fairly philosophical bent (though unlike my dad, I'm not willing to try to build a career around it. He majored in philosophy, and so spent most of his life working in resturants).

Okay, I'm back. Some thoughts on giving to the poor:

Fourth, no, Ayn Rand did not praise charity as a virtue as so many religionists and altruists do.

I'm glad to see we agree on this.

So, she would not advocate running out into the street and throwing your life savings into the air for just anyone who passes by. She would recommend that when you give to charity, that they are not supporting things that are antithetical to your life and happiness.

Flibbert and others who've responded to this point have failed to address my reasoning. In an Objectivist society, according to Rand, people who deserve to succeed will succeed, and people who deserve to fail will fail. That being the case, an Objectivist must hold that people who are poor necessarily deserve to be poor. And why would a consistent Objectivist ever desire to help such people? Why help looters and moochers, after all? If they starve, who cares? That's the fate they brought on themselves! Is that or is it not the inescapable conclusion of Rand's own logic?

I was an objectivist as a youth, having read several of her NF books, including TVOS. I still agree with some of her tenets, BTW. Then, at 22, I joined the USAF; they made me a firefighter. And to be perfectly honest, the idea that I could legitimately stand outside a burning building was bullshit, not because of the strangers inside, but because of my buddies inside, my bunkmates, my barracks neighbors. This is a profoundly irrational issue. My rational self certainly had to make peace with the idea that I might die. My irrational self preferred death to dishonor, I guess. I never once stood outside and watched it burn, nor did anyone I know.

Additionally, having once fought a 4000-acre grass fire north of DFW as one of only two Carswell AFB firemen amongst hundreds of civvy vols, I knew also that we'd put our asses on the line not only for ourselves, me and Sully, but for the others, because we knew if it came to pass that the shoe was on the other foot, we'd want them to do so as well.

This leads me to my final point. The fact that there's much evidence for an evolutionary basis for altruism only leads me further to believe that this philosophy, like most others, is little more than pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.

I fail to see how the passage Ebon quoted supports the interpretation that Ayn Rand thought "the European settlers of the Americas were fully within their rights to slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people." Nothing said in the passage rationally leads to the inference that she supported the European settlers in slaughtering or enslaving the Indians. To despoil is to deprive them of their property through the use of force, and I see nothing in Ayn Rand's passage that leads to the inference that she thought the Indians owned those goods or the Europeans should take them by force. The only valid inference I see is that she thought European settlers had the right to move and settle there. There is nothing in the quoted text that rules out the idea of peaceful cohabitation.

....

(Disclaimer: I know very little about the Indians of that time period and even less of Ayn Rand. I am looking at the dispute from a purely linguistic perspective.)

There's your problem. Perhaps reading this comment from me on another blog will give you some perspective on looking at disputes "from a purely linguistic perspective" (IE, flatly ignoring both context and connotation).

The idea that the Europeans somehow violated Indian Rights is unmitigated shinola.

In a way, I'm pleased to see so many Objectivists in this thread defending the idea that people who don't believe in the Western conception of property should be treated as if they have no rights. That confirms my hypothesis that this attitude was not some aberration or off-the-cuff misstatement on Rand's part. It is an intrinsic and fundamental tenet of her philosophy, and those who adopt that philosophy end up believing it as well. Just like all tyrannical philosophies throughout history, it leads inevitably to the conclusion that all non-believers are subhuman and unworthy of moral consideration.

...so, in other words, Ayn Rand didn't endorse the atrocities committed against native Americans, she just felt the Europeans' treatment of them was appropriate and proper.

Gotcha.

Ebonmuse wrote:

The idea of wages doesn't enter into it at any point; obviously, you can't spend your money if you're dead.

Obviously. But this is not about spending money if you are dead. Not all firefighters and police officers die, you know. This is like a lottery (please re-read my earlier post).

According to Rand, a rational person would never choose to put his own life at risk for the sake of a stranger. And that means no Objectivists are going to be firefighters, or policemen, or any other job that might call upon them to do this - or if they do take that job, they'll walk off it the first time they're asked to do something that might put them in danger. I believe my point here stands unaltered.

You didn't read my comment, did you? As I wrote, every job implies a risk. If you are a firefighter or a police officer, you have in fact made a contract to help and protect strangers (that in fact pay your wages). If you refuse to honor this contract, the case has to be dealt with by the court system.

Let me give you an even more extreme example than a normal lottery. Take the "Russian Roulette" -- you have an 1 in 6 chance of certain death. Even many Objectivist would probably take part in a game of Russian Roulette, IF the prize of winning were big enough (the prize need not be monetary, but for example getting out of North Korea alive).

Do you believe that Objectivists never would take risks?

Ebonmuse has consistently misquoted Rand in citing her opposition to claims of Native Americans to imply that she was for the enslavement of peoples. Ebonmuse cites a passage where the critical line is presented apart from the rest of the citation, as a single sentence, and even containing a set of ellipsis dots. "...you can't claim one should respect the 'rights' of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights." He then infers that this can mean none other than Rand means that one can do with such a people as one wishes.

The first tip-off that someone is quoting out of context is this sort of citation. Going back to the original passage one finds a very different story. The phrase refers to the right of an invading people to invade, not with what it has a right to do to the people otherwise. That is, the passage is delimited specifically to the claim of natives of property rights, and nothing else. Anyone who wishes to do so may look up the passage themselves and see what sort of hoax Ebonmuse is attempting to put over. IN fact she specifically claims the opposite regarding the individual rights of the inhabitants.

"The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual rights, but the country has no rights, and anyone has the right to invade it, because rights are not recognized in that country and no individual or country can have its cake and eat it too. That is, you can't claim one should respect the 'rights' of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights."

Let's see what Rand says is proper treatment toward societies such as a dictatorship and how the citizens of a dictatorship are to be treated. From Collectivized Rights in The Virtue of Selfishness:

"Dictatorship nations are outlaws. Any free nation had the right to invade Nazi Germany and, today, has the right to invade Soviet Russia, Cuba or any other slave pen. Whether a free nation chooses to do so or not is a matter of its own self-interest, not of respect for the nonexistent "rights" of gang rulers. It is not a free nation's duty to liberate other nations at the price of self-sacrifice, but a free nation has the right to do it, when and if it so chooses.

This right, however, is conditional. Just as the suppression of crimes does not give a policeman the right to engage in criminal activities, so the invasion and destruction of a dictatorship does not give the invader the right to establish another variant of a slave society in the conquered country.

A slave country has no national rights, but the individual rights of its citizens remain valid, even if unrecognized, and the conqueror has no right to violate them. Therefore, the invasion of an enslaved country is morally justified only when and if the conquerors establish a free social system, that is, a system based on the recognition of individual rights."

woops. Someone [Ebonmuse] has gotten it very wrong.

Alex, I think you have misunderstood the word linguistic. Linguistics concerns the study of the grammar, syntax, and context of an expression to determine its meaning. If you remove context, you no longer speak of linguistics. My point was that grammatically, syntactically, and contextually there appears to be no justification for the inference being made of her supporting the slaughtering, despoiling, or enslaving of the Indians. Her statement could be interpreted as supporting the slaughtering, despoiling, or enslaving and it can also be interpreted as supporting peaceful cohabitation so without further information there is no logically valid inference to be made concerning the statement.

I likewise encourage people to look up the passage, because it supports exactly the point I was making, regardless of attempts to spin it otherwise. Rand's argument is that, in the same way as dictatorships have no national rights, Native Americans had no individual rights (because, supposedly, they didn't respect individual rights themselves). That is why she says this:

That is, you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights.

That's why she called it "great" that the Europeans "took over" the continent - i.e., enslaved, expelled and slaughtered the people who were already living there. There is no way around this unless you flagrantly ignore her actual words.

I have still yet to see Ebon elucidate his theory of morality on any objective basis. Not surprising, since no such basis of his exists.

Look a little harder.

Her statement could be interpreted as supporting the slaughtering, despoiling, or enslaving and it can also be interpreted as supporting peaceful cohabitation so without further information there is no logically valid inference to be made concerning the statement.

Jesse, one can only make such an argument if you ignore what actually happened in history when Europeans met Native Americans. The fact of the matter is that the settlers did not engage in "peaceful cohabitation"; they viewed conquest as their right and slaughtered or enslaved the native people en masse. This actual history of events is what Ayn Rand praises, calling it "great" that they "took over" the continent. She was not speaking of some hypothetical alternate world where things turned out differently; she was speaking of the real world and praising the way events actually unfolded.

Seems to me the point about the Indians was not that what happened to them was right but merely that land does not belong to you by virtue of your presence. The second point being that because they didn't respect rights, their rights could not be respected.

How do you establish a civil and agreeable arrangement with someone if that person does not understand the concepts involved and has acted against those concepts in the past? How do you establish this agreement over land when the other party is constantly moving about over a very large area? It simply was not possible at the time so you can't expect Europeans to have done it. Should they have treated Indians wrongly like they did? No, definetly not. Can you reason with someone who is being unreasonable? Only for so long.

Its not like Ayn Rand considered the Europeans as the perfect models of her philosophy. It stands to reason that they were a mixed bag of things she liked and did not like... the primary thing she liked was reason, something that the Indians of that period had much less of.

I think its really lame and dishonest on your part to combine the potential reasons to be happy about Europeans "taking over" the country, such as it leading to the founding of the United States, with all the potential reasons to be upset. Its not one or the other, one can find both postive and negative things in what happened.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but the discussion of Native American property rights by Rand is completely factually wrong. Actually, many Native Americans *did* have a very good grasp of property rights. Most tribes were farmers who lived in villages, and they certainly defended their land. One of the main reasons that the Europeans were able to take the land away from Indians at all is because they introduced smallpox. In many, many cases European settlers came upon Indian villages with pantries full, crops ready to harvest, yet every single Indian dead from the disease. It decimated their numbers. The Europeans moved right in to the same homes and harvested those same crops. To even suggest that the Europeans "knew" what to do with the land any more than the Indians is patently false. There were a few nomadic tribes, but even those people moved between rather specific seasonal locales, following the animal herds that they used for sustenance. They didn't live that much differently or used the land differently than the generations of cowboys who came after them. Again, it's patently false to claim that they used the land any worse than the Europeans. They used it how they *wanted* to use it, irregardless of what Rand thought of the ways in which they used it. It was still their land. Beyond a doubt, this shows that Rand herself hadn't the slightest sense of what property rights really are. She only respected property rights if the property was owned by Objectivists like herself.

And it's true that after a while, most remaining Indians who were not killed had been kicked from one place to another as starving bands of nomads, finally pushed into unproductive desert wastelands in which they did not know how to survive. And the way that they lived at that point is how the contemprary Hollywood films portrayed them. This shows that, if anything, she was a very ignorant person.

(I need to preface my remarks by saying I've tried to read Rand twice, and failed to get very far so my knowledge is based on reading about her, and not reading her works directly.)

Once you understand something of the markets, you can find many, many more flaws in her simplistic, almost naive analysis. (Yeah, it's presumptuous for an anonymous internet guy to call a famous philosopher simplistic, so I'm sticking to her analysis of the markets.)

1. I don't think she has any understanding of the role of luck, chance, whim and sheer randomness in the markets. Everyone that's successful has a story to tell about how it was their perseverance/vision/whatever that saw them through, but this is survivor bias and hindsight. Fact is that we don't talk about all of the people and companies that failed, and there are many, many more of them. It's like interviewing "winners" of a Russian Roulette tournament, you have to be a simpleton if you accept their claims for how they won. Rand seems to believe that luck and randomness are absent, and success comes only from skills.

I mean this to apply to everything from which people become CEOs, which CEOs are successful, which companies thrive, which products sell, and which stocks boom. Much more important than which people and companies thrive is which people and companies go bust. For instance, when a plant shuts down, all the people working there lose their job and if the plant is big enough, this can ripple through the entire community. It wasn't their fault and there was probably nothing they could have done. Many of them might have been very successful had chance gone a different way.

I am open to arguments that I am wrong, be she doesn't seem to be aware that this is a problem.

2. I think she constructs an idol of "future human progress" as some abstract goal which is placed above any other consideration, including the human cost of attaining the goal or any human misery it might take to achieve it. I remember reading a lot of derision towards those who would hold back progress, but never why progress is so great. The implication seems to be that all of our lives will improve, but as the improvement is distant, uncertain and amorphous and the costs of achieving this are real and immediate, I think that her method makes a mockery of her goals/values. I personally think that progress is a means to an end, and not an end in itself; human happiness is the end. Rand seems to flip this around and view progress an the end goal, and happiness is irrelevant and possibly distracting. She seems to have no problem accepting a world that's filled with suffering and misery (indeed, this would probably provide a greater incentive for progress), which right away turns me against her.

@bbk

There were indeed tribes that had a better grasp of concepts like property, but they were by no means a majority or even common. I also believe you are the incorrect one, yes the Indians were evently moved to reservations but they were not moved from the east to the west, there were tribes in the east and the west respectively at the time and most tribes still exist in the general area that they originally inhabited. Also, the Indians that are general potrayed in Hollywood (at her time) were mostly western movies... which doesn't really involve Europeans by that point as America was already settled to a large degree and many treaties were established. Yes, plenty of those treaties were broken by both sides, and yes I think its absurd that my country would do that.

Ebonmuse,

Nowhere in her statement that you provided was there any mention or implication or supporting violence. She merely said that nomadic people with no conception of owning land had no right to claim ownership of the land. The worst implication to be drawn is that she thought the Indians caused part or all of the conflict. Another implication is that she thought the conflict was unnecessary. (From her perspective, if the Indians never claimed ownership to something they didn't own, there would've been much less conflict or no conflict at all.) She comes nowhere close to saying or implying the conflict or ensuing barbarity was justified. As far as I can infer from that single statement, she considered the whole aftermath of the settling unnecessary and stupid. The only event I seen her praise was the settling—nowhere in the statement, implicitly or explicitly, praising the aftermath.

Nowhere in her statement that you provided was there any mention or implication or supporting violence

She said she supported the way things turned out. The way things turned out involved violence.

What part of this are you failing to grasp?

Alex,

Where in the quote Ebonmuse provided does she say she supported the way things turned out?

Now, I don't care to discuss the alleged complaints American Indians have against this country. I believe, with good reason, the most unsympathetic Hollywood portrayal of Indians and what they did to the white man. They had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages. The white man did not conquer this country. And you're a racist if you object, because it means you believe that certain men are entitled to something because of their race. You believe that if someone is born in a magnificent country and doesn't know what to do with it, he still has a property right to it. He does not. Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights - they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures" - they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using.

...you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights.

I don't see it.

@Alex Weaver

You're implying that she only had good things to say about Europeans for that period, which is wrong.

Jesse,

As I said in an earlier comment, on the next page of the same essay Rand says this:

Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent, and it's great that some of them did.

If that's not approval, then I don't know what could be.

You know, I'm pretty sure the Aztec's and the Incan's had property rights, although admitadly they were evil empires... wait, if they had property rights and their neighbors didn't- we have a new justification! Human sacrifice for trespacing- a proud tradition objectivists can stand behind. Or in the case of the Incans, blatant communism. Because nothing says objectivism like a God King competing with the mummies of his ancestors using the unlimited wealth that are produced by slaves- er peasents. Remember- property rights can be expanded to include people!

Sarcasm... but there is a point here.

You might want to do a little more research before writing off Objectivism as a useful philosophy for life. You can only live for a positive and that is why everyone, especially an atheist needs a philosophy of life. Atheism is not a philosophy or a positive idea; it is only a negation of the belief in the existence of any god or gods. You can not live for what you don’t believe in. You must live for what you do believe in.

You have bundled a slew of complaints into your missive and all are incorrect. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Objectivism by any means, and I don’t think any expert would take the time to answer such fuzzy thinking. Rand could be very patient with serious students but quiet impatient with fuzzy thinking, floating abstractions, and false claims made by those who don’t know what they are talking about. Perhaps that is were you get the idea of “the cult-like attitude of absolute obedience and conformity that characterized her movement's founding”. I wasn’t at her initial meetings where she began to explain her philosophical ideas to others, but I was around before she died and there was no cult-like aspect to any group associated with her. She did demand that you not accept any of her thoughts or conclusions without first understanding them yourself and being able to explain why you agreed. She abhorred those who would accept an idea on faith or just because she said it was so. The word cult does not apply to a group whose members are free to refute any idea and welcome to prove any accepted idea wrong. The word atheist might as well include agnostics or anyone who feels there is something or someone outside or above this universe but rejects all organized religion. In other words, if words have specific meanings, Objectivism is not a cult.

I’m not sure what you mean by “her blatant hypocrisy in her adulterous relationship with Nathaniel Branden”, and I’m not so sure about a sexual nature of their relationship either. If Ayn had betrayed the love she openly professed for her husband Frank by having some sort of secret affair with Branden, I’d agree that would be hypocritical. Did she? It doesn’t look like it. Their meetings certainly weren’t secret and apparently Branden was the true hypocrite in that relationship. You ought to read “The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics” by James Valliant before you make any assumption about hypocrisy or even an affair. Rand knew how to think, knew what she liked and why, and was not afraid to say it or to change her mind if evidence proved to her that she was wrong. She wrote and maintained meticulous records of her thoughts in journals that shed an entirely different light on her relationship with Branden.

As far as what happened to the American Indians, Rand’s defense of the settler’s rights makes sense based on the meaning of property, rights, and human life even if our subsequent non-objective treatment of the natives leaves a lot to be desired. Rand is not here to defend herself so it is wrong to infer anything about Objectivism only on some out of context statement. Rand made mistakes like any of us, but she would be willing to listen to logical arguments to correct her thinking if presented in a civilized and rational manner. Her ideas were not formed whole in some divine inspiration, but were honed over years of study and writing and thinking. She deserves serious consideration, not ad hominem argument.

But apparently these are your minor objections and I can’t address why you don’t like Ayn Rand as a person without more information. Is it her looks, her accent, her strongly held opinions, her devotion to her husband, her success in spite of overwhelming hardship, or just your emotions? As far as your “…three … primary objections to Rand's Objectivist philosophy” lets take a look at those.

1. “The Objectivist Firefighter: Sacrificing Your Life For Strangers”

An Objectivist might actually want a job as a defender based on his value for human life and based on his interest for his own life. He might find the job challenging and interesting and so enjoyable he could think of nothing else but doing it in the best way possible. He would know that there are risks involved and he would use his reason to minimize those risks. He would do everything in his power to be the best he could at the job for which he is being paid as he would hold productivity and honesty as virtues. He would rush into burning buildings to save strangers; stand against a forest fire to protect the property of strangers; use his body as a bridge so children can scurry across from a burning and collapsing floor to a safer area even knowing that it is risky. No, he wouldn’t knowingly let himself be killed, but in an emergency he might be, and he is aware of that risk. He would naturally, without conscious thought, shield a stranger from a blast that caught them by surprise exiting a building for example. You make it sound as if an Objectivist ought to behave in some irrational manner just because he finds himself in a dangerous situation. His reason and love for life will help him perform the best in such a situation ― situations that are way out of the ordinary. Emergency situations involve a whole different analysis than what normal life requires. If there are no good choices offered, then ethics can not help you make a choice either. An Objectivist does not think it is in anyone’s interest to die senselessly. If I’m to be called a hero, I want it to be because I loved my life to the end and I died trying to do the best I could to save everyone’s life, not that I sacrificed mine specifically to save a stranger.

To say that no Objectivists would risk his life in an emergency situation is as absurd as saying there are no atheists in fox-holes.

2. “Ayn Pangloss: Conflicts of Interest Among Rational Men”

Your conclusions are apparently driven by a need to further an altruistic world view in which you must have some guilt for the suffering of others and expect that the only correct and moral response is again to sacrifice for any needy person or group. Rand says nothing about an “infallible” market or an infallible person. Her whole philosophy is based on the fact that man is fallible and not omniscient hence must use reason and logic to gain knowledge of reality. There are no guarantees and even an Objectivist can fail. His very survival could depend on the mercy of others but he would not be using quilt to motivate others to assist him. He would not want to live his life for others, nor ask others to live their life for him. Just think how much better off society would be if that where everyone’s attitude. An Objectivist would care about those he valued. Those he chooses to care about. If they had him for their own enjoyment and raised him to be independent and to think for himself, his parents would hold a special place in his heart. He may even have a special fondness for his siblings if they deserved it, but he would not feel quilt if they did not.

3. "You Will Not Be Stopped": The Heartless Core of Objectivism

Again you make up hypothetical situations with no solution and presume that an Objectivist would be worthlessly conflicted. An Objectivist is no more immune from chance and another person’s whim than an Atheist. If I lose out on a position to another who is exactly equal in all respects (an imaginary situation), there is no contradiction in saying that it was just the luck of the draw. If I lose out to a less qualified candidate, then the person making the decision made a mistake and will suffer the consequence. If free and absent from fraud (not always the case and one of the reasons we need government), the market will provide the most efficient method of achieving the best solution to innovation, productivity, allocation of limited resources, pollution, and environmental issues. As well as finding a way to care for “…whatever misery strikes the worthless…”, atheist again have nothing to offer as a solution to anything. You have chosen to espouse the philosophical principals that all religious groups pander to the masses. Rand once said something like, “You can not fight communism with socialism.” I’ll tell you, “You can not fight religion with altruism.” You ought to spend a lot more time appreciating the achievement of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism as it would actually provide you with something positive. Start with course at http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=index

Roger, your comments do not address the specific reasons I gave as to why a consistent Objectivist would have to respond in the ways I suggested to the given situations. Next.

On the topic of charity and altruism: Each month, I donate extra money to the power company to aide those that may not be able to meet their bill. I don't know these people or if anyone actually does receive assistance. I don't think I am doing it because of selfish reasons, I do it because I have the ability to do so and maybe, just maybe, the contribution may help somebody somehow. I don't believe in god so I am not buying brownie points, and I don't believe someone will return the favor to me someday. It just seems like the right thing to do.

I've read "The Virtue of Selfishness" and other books she wrote before and find them to be an pretty "good" references for my own economic philosophy - although I do have my disagreements with Rand:

1. Regarding property - Rand states that it is concepts of ownership that confer the "right" to claim land, I argue that it's the strength to hold on to property (lan or otherwise) that propoerty is owned: if one lacks the strength to defend his property, he's not going to hold on to it for long.

2. "Pure" rationality - Rand argues that a free-market system will always make the most rational decisions, but forgets about human subjectivity: who gets to define what the "rational" outcome being sought after is? In the end, a "rational" outcome to one man may seem very "irrational" to another - all because they begin with different goals and values upon which to make this definition in the first place.

3. Her belief in "free will" - as a determinist, I find the whole concept to be utter nonsense: if all the principles of the universe are based on causality (and to my knowledge there are no uncaused events), then "free will" is unachievable.

Aside from disagreements like these, we do think in a very similar manner: as much as our philosophies differ in theory, they are much alike in practice.

Roger, your comments do not address the specific reasons I gave as to why a consistent Objectivist would have to respond in the ways I suggested to the given situations. Next.

Personally I'm still hung up on the ridiculous presumptions underlying the very first paragraph.

A good post.

I myself am an Objectivist but it is by no means a perfect philosphy (what is) so i like this constant criticism, gives me something to think on and improve myself.

RnBram:

Everyone who has here argued that the Indians had some sort of right to North American land has *collectivized* the Indians. Collectives do not own land just because the collective has beaten off their neighbors. Which Indian in a tribe owns what portion of the tribal land? None and all. They have no *property rights*. Did they recognize the right to life of other members of their tribe or of members of neighboring tribes? No? Did they enslave other tribes people? Yes. The idea that the Europeans somehow violated Indian Rights is unmitigated shinola.

1) There does not need to be individual property rights for there to be property rights attaching to the collective - collective/communal property is recognised in almost all legal systems, including those of the European invaders at the time of their colonisation.
2)The rights to life and to property are different, one does not require the other. Also, the right to life may be recognised but simply disregarded in certain situations, of which inter-tribal war is a clear example.
3)If collectives "do not own land just because the collective has beaten off their neighbours" then the entirity of human history is one of non-ownership... while I'm not an anarchist by any means, their phrase "all property is theft" is a useful one to keep in mind here.
4)That native Americans enslaved prisoners of their wars does not invalidate the claims that it was abhorrent for the Europeans to invade and colonise their lands.

Were all Europeans paragons of virtue and respecters of individual rights? Of course not. That did not come into being until 1776. However, *northern* Europeans DID bring a more consistent and intelligible *trader principle* with them (however inconsistently implemented). It is that trader principle that opened up North America in a way that Central and South America could not experience. The Southern Europeans did not respect such trading.

You have a strange sense of morality if you think bringing capitalistic trading to supplant the native system was worth slaughter, and a strange sense of history if you think that it was simply a difference in attitudes to trade that differentiated the colonisation of North and South America.

Never did Ayn Rand approve of the "slaughter, despoil and enslave the native people", in the willy nilly fashion Ebonmuse suggests. However, regardless of their race, she did approve of forcible resistance to those who initiated violence against others, and the Indians did initiate such violence.

She said the native Americans had no legitimate complaint - and since they suffered slaughter and all the rest, this clearly indicates her approval. She did not approve of native American militancy, for as the original quote showed, she expressed contempt for their actions, believing the worst of them.

Kendall J:

That is, you can't claim one should respect the 'rights' of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights."

This is being said all the time - as if the form of rights was the same as the substance. The native Americans believed that they did not own the land themselves, but were caretakers of it for future generations (of their own tribes). This is not a 'right' to property, but it does equate to what we could call a legal 'trust' - the current people being the trustees and their children as beneficiaries. Given that the European powers used their own concept of legal rights to justify invasion and slaughter, I see no reason why we can't use other European concepts to show why their reasoning was farcical and abhorrent.

Ebonmuse,

You provided this quote:

Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent, and it's great that some of them did.

There is nothing there praising—implicitly or explicitly—slaughtering, despoiling, and enslaving the Indians. That statement praises the settling—the decision that it would be illogical to not take advantage of the resources provided by the continent when they can be used to further one's own prosperity—rather than a statement that endorses the bloody aftermath. I shown, using the previous Ayn Rand quote discussed, that she thought the bloody aftermath was illogical and unnecessary.

Rand would risk her life for her own child presumably, but not for “a stranger”; it is ok to help others, but only if “they are worthy”; there are no conflicts between people who are “rational”.
And these Unworthy, Irrational, Strangers Who Have No Rights are simply those who don't agree with her idea of what is productive or reasonable. She decides.
The Confederation of the Iroquois for example, with a far better system of government than anything known to Europeans, she says “had no concept of rights”, merely “acted like savages” and “didn't know what to do with” the country. In other words she was an ignorant bigot.
To move in uninvited, destroy the natural resources that provide the inhabitants livelihood so they are reduced to prostitutes and beggars, and then kill them when they resist, is not manifestly different from “slaughter, despoil, and enslave”, and those trying to make a distinction are being disingenuous at best.
Some of the attitudes expressed in these comments are horrifying.

Mr. Johanson,

You didn't read my comment, did you? As I wrote, every job implies a risk. If you are a firefighter or a police officer, you have in fact made a contract to help and protect strangers (that in fact pay your wages). If you refuse to honor this contract, the case has to be dealt with by the court system.

A contract that doesn't allow one to walk off the job if the risk is too high? Plus, what risk is there in an office job? Will an office employee be called upon to save the lives of complete strangers while risking one's own life?

Let me give you an even more extreme example than a normal lottery. Take the "Russian Roulette" — you have an 1 in 6 chance of certain death. Even many Objectivist would probably take part in a game of Russian Roulette, IF the prize of winning were big enough (the prize need not be monetary, but for example getting out of North Korea alive).

And your example completely ignores the fact that we are talking about the Objectivist risking her own life for the sake of strangers, which Rand says is irrational and immoral.

Adrian,

For instance, when a plant shuts down, all the people working there lose their job and if the plant is big enough, this can ripple through the entire community. It wasn't their fault and there was probably nothing they could have done. Many of them might have been very successful had chance gone a different way.

My impression from having read Atlas Shrugged is that she blamed the workers for their condition. They didn't work hard enough, and when things went downhill, they didn't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and learn new skills and succeed. Of course, all the heroes in her book were superhuman characters who were the very best at everything they tried, so it would have been easy for one of them, but she ignored the fact that not everyone is born with the same intellectual capacity, skill set, or the same opportunities as everyone else, which is a common mistake made by people who think pure capitalism is best for everything.

Ayn Pangloss

Fantastic, Ebon! Great description. (I just finished reading Candide, incidentally.)

I think your criticisms of Objectivism are astute. Objectivism is merely apologizing for the status quo. In practice it would lead to the formation of deep class divides. If you're born into a disadvantaged environment, or with less than perfect faculties, you still have no right to be helped to attain a good life. If you are incapable of attaining it on your own, too bad for you. That is the problem with a "merit-based" system - what happens to those with "less merit?" They are sentenced to remain in their squalor. There is no place in Objectivism for the mentally ill, or the mentally retarded, in the Objectivist view of morality.

As a result, I find Objectivism repulsive and deeply immoral. See my Philosophically Fucking Humanity for a (slightly) fuller critique.

Here is a passage from Nietzsche's Daybreak, which I happened to read this morning, that seemed apropos (the bold is my emphasis):

547. The tyrants of the spirit. - The march of science is now no longer crossed by the accidental fact that men live for about seventy years, as was for all too long the case. Formerly, a man wanted to reach the far end of knowledge during this period of time and the methods of acquiring knowledge were evaluated in accordance with this universal longing. The small single questions and experiments were counted contemptible: one wanted the shortest route; one believed that, because everything in the world seemed to be accommodated to man, the knowability of things was also accommodated to a human time span. To solve everything at a stroke, with a single word - that was the secret desire: the task was thought of in the image of the Gordian knot or in that of the egg of Columbus; one did not doubt that in the domain of knowledge too it was possible to reach one's goal in the manner of Alexander or Columbus and to settle all questions with a single answer. 'There is a riddle to be solved': thus did the goal of life appear to the eye of the philosopher; the first thing to do was to find the riddle and to compress the problem of the world into the simplest riddle-form. The boundless ambition and exultation of being the 'unriddler of the world' constituted the thinker's dreams: nothing seemed worth-while if it was not the means of bringing everything to a conclusion for him! Philosophy was thus a kind of supreme struggle to possess the tyrannical rule of the spirit - that some such very fortunate, subtle, inventive, bold and mighty man was in reserve - one only! - was doubted by none, and several, most recently Schopenhauer, fancied themselves to be that one. [and Ayn "Pangloss" Rand?] - From this it follows that by and large the sciences have hitherto been kept back by the moral narrowness of their disciples and that henceforth they must be carried on with a higher and more magnanimous basic feeling. 'What do I matter!' - stands over the door of the thinker of the future.

But that just moves the problem back, because then the conclusion would seem to be that an Objectivist should always turn down any job - firefighter, policeman, infectious-disease specialist - that might potentially put his life in danger.

There are rational reasons that Objectivists would choose to be firefighters or police officers, and those have been mentioned in other comments.

As long as no one you personally know is in danger, your duty is to protect yourself and only yourself.

This is an oversimplification at best. There are circumstances in which it would be immoral to try to save someone even if you do personally know them. There are still others in which trying to save someone, even knowing you will die in so doing, is perfectly moral. You can’t drop context completely. If you knowingly place yourself at comparatively great risk to save someone who is of no value to you, then yes, that would be immoral.

Burning buildings progress from being (relatively) safe to enter to completely unsafe to enter. As such, decisions are made by the commanding officer on the scene as to whether or not firefighters will be allowed into the building. In some cases the building may be so unsafe as to be futile and a guaranteed death trap for any firefighters who enter it. Going into that building would be suicide (not heroism), and Objectivism would label any attempt to do so as immoral.

In other fires the right combination of direction, technology and experience can bring people out alive, and a rational person, having chosen to be a professional firefighter, will assume that risk as part of his rational decision to be a firefighter.

In the specific instance of the WTC and 9/11, I would note that the events were unfolding so fast and chaotically that it genuinely qualified as an “emergency situation” as Rand described. In such scenarios information is limited or nonexistent and decisions have to be made quickly. There really is no rational way to decide "do I go or do I stay?" so one cannot blame people for doing either.

Unlike the firefighter quoted above, the Objectivist rescue worker has to refuse - because he's being asked to risk his life for strangers, which can never be a moral duty according to Rand.

Risking one’s life for strangers is not a moral duty. Firefighters risk their lives to save others by choice, not because of a moral obligation. Agreeing to take on a job does not create new moral obligations; this passage is conflating “duty” as a moral obligation and “duty” as a job description. Firefighters have “duties” (i.e. job activities) that call for exposure to risk, but those activities do not create a "moral duty" (i.e. moral obligation) to expose one’s self to risk needlessly and without regard for personal safety.

But now, consider a case Rand never discusses: What if two equally qualified people apply for the same job?

There is a good reason that Rand never discussed this: it is not a part of reality. It is a floating abstraction and an unrealistic hypothetical scenario. Which two people are “equally qualified?” Has there ever been an instance in reality where there were two people who were literally "equally intelligent, equally skilled, and would perform equally well if given the job?" One could make the argument that people have virtually the same qualifications, but other factors play into getting a job besides just a resume: personality, philosophy, appearance, etc.

A "conflict of interest" is a scenario in which one person’s advancement is won at the cost of another’s. Rand’s point is that if the other guy gets the job and you don’t, he does not get it at your expense, since the job wasn’t yours by right. Just because you want it doesn’t mean it is automatically a value, and even when you do rationally want something, failure to obtain it isn’t the same as having it stolen.

In Objectivist philosophy, if you succeed it's because you deserve to succeed, and if you're poor it's because you deserve to be poor.

This is incorrect. Objectivism recognizes that a person can be born into a family that is wealthy, and there is nothing that person did to “deserve” the wealth. The same holds for someone who is born into a poor family. Once someone becomes an adult however, they have the power to try to change their situation. The heir can lose his money either foolishly or in an attempt to build his fortune. The poor guy can become wealthy because he gets lucky or because he works hard and makes a fortune for himself. Either of them can maintain their status for similar reasons. So we have to be careful wielding the word "deserve." In the sense that we all have a right to keep what we make, we "deserve" what we have. But we do not "deserve" our fortunes from an intrinsic standpoint; that is, we do not deserve anything simply because of who we are.

Rand’s overarching point is that for whatever reason – bad luck, poor choices, or failure to try – there will always be poor people. This does not mean that the poor are entitled to anything from anyone, other than the freedom to act in their own best interests.

...it seems hard to escape the conclusion that a consistent Objectivist would never give any money or other assistance to others. After all, if they were deserving of your help, they wouldn't need it; they'd have already achieved success and security on their own through hard work and persistence.

There’s that word "deserve" again. To say that someone "deserves" help is again leading us down the path toward intrinsicism.

A person whom I value and who in general acts morally - and nevertheless finds himself in trouble financially - would most likely receive help from me IF doing so would not compromise a greater value for me, such as failing to provide for myself or my family.

This is one of the most often misunderstood aspects of Objectivism. Critics of Objectivism assume that there is only one value – the self. In fact Objectivists – if they properly understand the philosophy – have an extensive hierarchy of values, the top of which is the self (and rightly so, as dead people can’t value). It makes no sense to betray a higher value for a lesser one. To do so implies that the lesser has been misplaced in the hierarchy.

In an Objectivist society, people might still starve, but we can at least comfort ourselves with the knowledge that they must have deserved it.

No, in an Objectivist society we can comfort ourselves with the knowledge that no one forced it upon them.

I read Atlas Shrugged in high school and again in college. I loved mythology, and I loved her characters. It wasn't until college that I realized I love her characters because they were mythical. Rand had no concept of giving human flaws to her main characters. Their only flaws really boiled down to working too hard.

I liked her book in high school because it had a lot to say about individuality, the meaning of wealth, and mans place in society. It had a lot to say about tyranny and injustice. But when I reread it later I realized it also purposefully ignored other kinds of injustice. Her almost reflexive disdain of anything natural, or non-white for that matter. Her assumption that the person in charge is always the best and the brightest (except when he arbitrarily isn't) kind of pissed me off. Her characters weren't people, they were caractures of people with all the flaws pilled on one group and all the virtues pilled on others. She never addressed problems facing real people with human frailties and doubts.

I always assumed that people treated her works with a grain of salt, that despite the powerfullness of her message on one subject, she had many irrational mistakes on another. I thought people talked about her like they would any other writer 'I agree with this, but disagree with that' kind of thing. Then I went to the internet, I never understood the cult like dedication some people have to her writings. They use twisted logic and long rhetoric to justify something she said, where in any normal person would just say 'shes very wrong on this point'. I mean, shes human, its not a capital sin for her to be wrong.

I still like the great heros of her works, but I realize its fiction not philosophy.

In an Objectivist society, according to Rand, people who deserve to succeed will succeed, and people who deserve to fail will fail. That being the case, an Objectivist must hold that people who are poor necessarily deserve to be poor.

That is ridiculous beyond belief.

I'm going to assume that by "Objectivist Society" you mean a population of all Objectivists and not simply a society governed by laws that are proper to a state according to Objectivism.

Even among such a group of people -- each pursuing productive lives according to their rational self-interest -- unfortunate events may still happen and impoverish someone. There may be accidents, disease, and disasters of all sorts. Individuals may also make mistakes and errors of judgment which may ruin their financial situation.

And in any of those cases, charity may be appropriate because in none of those cases is moral condemnation necessarily appropriate.

Rand doesn't even really object to simply being kind or generous to people under certain conditions.

Your assertion that Objectivism precludes charity is just false.

[...] Since the philosophy has such visibility, it’s worth learning a bit about. Ebonmuse over at Daylight Atheism has written an excellent analysis of Objectivism, “Three Objections to Objectivism”. [...]

I never liked Atlas Shrugged. My first time reading it thoroughly pissed me off quite enough. What I saw in her writing was a sheltered, conceited, narrow view of the world that did not lend itself to