Comments on: No Religious Exemptions from Child Abuse Laws http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:25:22 +0000 By: bestonnet http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-37239 bestonnet Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:47:35 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-37239 Yes, I suspect that most religious people would be outraged at that kind of crap (if only they heard more about it than just a side mention on the TV at night). This is however an example of the possible harm that can (and does) come from religion. Yes, I suspect that most religious people would be outraged at that kind of crap (if only they heard more about it than just a side mention on the TV at night).

This is however an example of the possible harm that can (and does) come from religion.

]]> By: Pastor/Raptor http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-37235 Pastor/Raptor Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:22:24 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-37235 Call me a litle late to comment on this, but I don't understand how this limits itself a 'atheists vs religion' thing...Wouldn't people of ANY faith (that doesn't also believe in the active suppression of proven lifesaving medical methods) be upset about this kind of "rather die for our beliefs than prove science is right" crap that Jehova's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and Scientologists do? Call me a litle late to comment on this, but I don't understand how this limits itself a 'atheists vs religion' thing...Wouldn't people of ANY faith (that doesn't also believe in the active suppression of proven lifesaving medical methods) be upset about this kind of "rather die for our beliefs than prove science is right" crap that Jehova's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and Scientologists do?

]]> By: goyo http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34706 goyo Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:21:59 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34706 Damien: I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying to me. I teach 4th grade. My students are 9-10 years old. They believe exactly what their parents tell them to believe. The parents believe exactly what their pastor tells them, in this case the Watchtower doctrine, which states that under no circumstances should they receive a blood transfusion if their lives are in peril. No matter if that doctrine is stated explicitly in their bible or not, that is what they have to obey if they want to stay Jehovah's Witnesses. If they disobey, they will be disfellowshipped. Now, they can believe or not believe in this particular doctrine all they want, but when they act upon it and allow their child to die for want of a blood transfusion, where does the blame lie? Of course with the parents, but where did they hear of this teaching in the first place? Who came up with the crazy notion that the bible prohibits blood transfusions? Who also puts pressure on the family to "stay the course" and resist all efforts to use a proven medical procedure to save lives? Are you going to say that Jehovah's Witness doctrine is not to blame also? Damien:
I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying to me.
I teach 4th grade. My students are 9-10 years old. They believe exactly what their parents tell them to believe. The parents believe exactly what their pastor tells them, in this case the Watchtower doctrine, which states that under no circumstances should they receive a blood transfusion if their lives are in peril.
No matter if that doctrine is stated explicitly in their bible or not, that is what they have to obey if they want to stay Jehovah's Witnesses. If they disobey, they will be disfellowshipped.
Now, they can believe or not believe in this particular doctrine all they want, but when they act upon it and allow their child to die for want of a blood transfusion, where does the blame lie?
Of course with the parents, but where did they hear of this teaching in the first place? Who came up with the crazy notion that the bible prohibits blood transfusions?
Who also puts pressure on the family to "stay the course" and resist all efforts to use a proven medical procedure to save lives?
Are you going to say that Jehovah's Witness doctrine is not to blame also?

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34705 OMGF Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:29:11 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34705 <blockquote>Unfortunately, I feel obliged to point out that the guilt for "faith inspired" crimes rests on the neglectful parents, not on the other members of their religion, nor on religion as a whole.</blockquote> If someone incites others to violence, isn't the inciter held responsible? If the priest incites the parents to neglect their children until death, doesn't the priest hold some responsibility for the parents' actions?

Unfortunately, I feel obliged to point out that the guilt for "faith inspired" crimes rests on the neglectful parents, not on the other members of their religion, nor on religion as a whole.

If someone incites others to violence, isn't the inciter held responsible? If the priest incites the parents to neglect their children until death, doesn't the priest hold some responsibility for the parents' actions?

]]> By: DamienSansBlog http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34699 DamienSansBlog Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:38:23 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34699 Ebon, the <i>Prince v. Massachusetts</i> case you link to is about pamphlets, not medical neglect. Are you perhaps thinking of a different case? If not, would you please explain to me how <i>PvM</i> was used in, for example, the Azevedo case you mentioned, or any other case in the past 64 years that adressed child neglect directly. I agree, of course, that the death of a child for any reason is tragic, and I do think that a case could be made here for neglect, regardless of the beliefs of the neglectors. As you say, neglect is neglect. Neither Witnesses nor anyone else should be allowed to hold their beliefs up as a shield. Unfortunately, I feel obliged to point out that the guilt for "faith inspired" crimes rests on the neglectful parents, not on the other members of their religion, nor on religion as a whole. I should not have to point this out, but it is an easy jump from "these particular believers committed a crime, and used their faith as a pale justification", to "belief itself is a crime". Even atheists are not immune to such jumping. (Goyo, I'm looking at you, I'm afraid.) Ebon, the Prince v. Massachusetts case you link to is about pamphlets, not medical neglect. Are you perhaps thinking of a different case? If not, would you please explain to me how PvM was used in, for example, the Azevedo case you mentioned, or any other case in the past 64 years that adressed child neglect directly.

I agree, of course, that the death of a child for any reason is tragic, and I do think that a case could be made here for neglect, regardless of the beliefs of the neglectors. As you say, neglect is neglect. Neither Witnesses nor anyone else should be allowed to hold their beliefs up as a shield.

Unfortunately, I feel obliged to point out that the guilt for "faith inspired" crimes rests on the neglectful parents, not on the other members of their religion, nor on religion as a whole. I should not have to point this out, but it is an easy jump from "these particular believers committed a crime, and used their faith as a pale justification", to "belief itself is a crime". Even atheists are not immune to such jumping. (Goyo, I'm looking at you, I'm afraid.)

]]> By: Dennis http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34672 Dennis Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:01:21 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34672 I live about a baseball's throw away from the Christian Science Center in Boston. I walk by it from work everyday, and I don't usually pay it any mind, but I was personally invited to a lecture there in a couple weeks by someone outside. This guy: http://www.tfccs.com/lectureplanning/graunke.jhtml is coming to talk about the "The Certainty of Christian Science Healing". I guarantee this happens all the time there, that's what they're all about. I don't know what to do; I don't feel right ignoring the fact that people will show up and believe prayer has an effect in medicine. I suppose I should show up and ask questions loudly about the science if there is a Q&A? I'm new to this. Any suggestions would be helpful. I live about a baseball's throw away from the Christian Science Center in Boston. I walk by it from work everyday, and I don't usually pay it any mind, but I was personally invited to a lecture there in a couple weeks by someone outside. This guy:
http://www.tfccs.com/lectureplanning/graunke.jhtml
is coming to talk about the "The Certainty of Christian Science Healing". I guarantee this happens all the time there, that's what they're all about. I don't know what to do; I don't feel right ignoring the fact that people will show up and believe prayer has an effect in medicine. I suppose I should show up and ask questions loudly about the science if there is a Q&A? I'm new to this. Any suggestions would be helpful.

]]> By: Atheist Revolution http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34542 Atheist Revolution Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:45:08 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34542 Children Victimized by Polygamists to Remain in St CNN is reporting that Judge Barbara Walther, the judge at the polygamist custody hearing, found sufficient evidence to keep the hundreds of children removed from the Yearning for Zion ranch in state custody. She also ordered DNA testing for all the c... Children Victimized by Polygamists to Remain in St

CNN is reporting that Judge Barbara Walther, the judge at the polygamist custody hearing, found sufficient evidence to keep the hundreds of children removed from the Yearning for Zion ranch in state custody. She also ordered DNA testing for all the c...

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34262 Polly Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:21:24 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34262 I don't think sending the fanatical parents to jail would do any good and would probably only harm the remaining children. Losing their child is worse, by far, than any punishment the state would mete out. So, the penalties would not act as a deterrent. Plus, they expect a miracle; it wouldn't factor into any kind of risk analysis prior to the fatal outcome. Not that there's a whole lot of ANALYSIS going on in any case. As awful as their judgment is in this situation, overall they are likely to be better parents than foster care. If suitable relatives <i>that are willing</i> to raise the children can be found, and who don't hold the same dangerous beliefs, that's probably the best that can be hoped for. Regular visits from child services until the kids reach adulthood is probably the next best alternative to jail along with mandatory counseling. I don't think sending the fanatical parents to jail would do any good and would probably only harm the remaining children.
Losing their child is worse, by far, than any punishment the state would mete out. So, the penalties would not act as a deterrent. Plus, they expect a miracle; it wouldn't factor into any kind of risk analysis prior to the fatal outcome. Not that there's a whole lot of ANALYSIS going on in any case.

As awful as their judgment is in this situation, overall they are likely to be better parents than foster care. If suitable relatives that are willing to raise the children can be found, and who don't hold the same dangerous beliefs, that's probably the best that can be hoped for. Regular visits from child services until the kids reach adulthood is probably the next best alternative to jail along with mandatory counseling.

]]> By: StaceyJW http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34198 StaceyJW Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:17:08 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-34198 Would this be the same outcome if the parent was a devout and practicing Satanist? If they attended black mass and worship every week? Would they also be allowed the excuse of religious devotion, or would they get the death penalty? (If they didn't get ruled insane that is). I just don't see the difference- both Satanism and Christianity are beliefs in supernatural deities- strong religious belief is just that, and any religion can claim it. Religion is often cited by killers and madmen- the voices told them that god wanted them to kill- but why is this not acceptable, but denying medical care with the same end result is OK because of god ? You don't get to kill people (whether through denying medication or with a gun or knife) just because you have certain very strong thoughts- serial killers believe all kinds of crazy stuff, but they are still seen for what they are- murderous anti-social criminals. If any other parent did this they would go to jail whether they were smart or stupid. As well as they should. The laws against child abuse exist for a reason. Sickening, especially in this century. Would this be the same outcome if the parent was a devout and practicing Satanist? If they attended black mass and worship every week? Would they also be allowed the excuse of religious devotion, or would they get the death penalty? (If they didn't get ruled insane that is).

I just don't see the difference- both Satanism and Christianity are beliefs in supernatural deities- strong religious belief is just that, and any religion can claim it. Religion is often cited by killers and madmen- the voices told them that god wanted them to kill- but why is this not acceptable, but denying medical care with the same end result is OK because of god ?

You don't get to kill people (whether through denying medication or with a gun or knife) just because you have certain very strong thoughts- serial killers believe all kinds of crazy stuff, but they are still seen for what they are- murderous anti-social criminals.

If any other parent did this they would go to jail whether they were smart or stupid. As well as they should. The laws against child abuse exist for a reason.

Sickening, especially in this century.

]]> By: Jared http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-33912 Jared Mon, 07 Apr 2008 01:15:07 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/religious-child-abuse.html#comment-33912 I'm also from Wisconsin, and one of my uncles died from pneumonia at age 2. My grandfather chose to pray for healing rather than take him to the hospital. He lives on in my middle name, Michael. I'm also from Wisconsin, and one of my uncles died from pneumonia at age 2. My grandfather chose to pray for healing rather than take him to the hospital. He lives on in my middle name, Michael.

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