Comments on: The Arrogance of the Miraculous http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:09:01 +0000 By: Juan Felipe http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-36878 Juan Felipe Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:03:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-36878 Ah, nevermind, the links works. It wasn't working on the preview Ah, nevermind, the links works. It wasn't working on the preview

]]> By: Juan Felipe http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-36877 Juan Felipe Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:02:02 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-36877 There is a higher scale version of this arrogant claim: the so called Hiroshima miracle http://www.holysouls.com/sar/rosarymiracle.htm "In Hiroshima, a small community of Jesuit Fathers lived in a church house near the parish church, situated only eight blocks from the center of the bomb blast. When Hiroshima was destroyed by the atomic bomb, all eight members of the small Jesuit community escaped unscathed, while every other person who was within a radius of roughly one and a half kilometers from the center of the explosion died immediately. The church house where the Jesuits lived was still standing, while the buildings in every direction from it were leveled." Even if it isn't true (it probably isn't) the fact that some people are eager to show it as a miraculous occurence speaks a lot about the morality of their beliefs. If God can miracolously protect people from the harm caused by others, why doesn't he does it more often? Are we to believe that a perfectly fair God only protect those who worship him exactly as he likes? Also, seems to me that proclaiming these things as miracles implies abandoning the free will theodicy completely, God can create magical auras to protect his favorite childs from harm, and this is somehow not an infringement on our free will? There was a page debunking that miracle ('how fables become facts') but now I'm unable to find it. If someone has a link it would be very helpful. BTW, I'm having problems with URLs here, how do you close them? There is a higher scale version of this arrogant claim: the so called Hiroshima miracle

http://www.holysouls.com/sar/rosarymiracle.htm

"In Hiroshima, a small community of Jesuit Fathers lived in a church
house near the parish church, situated only eight blocks from the
center of the bomb blast.

When Hiroshima was destroyed by the atomic bomb,
all eight members of the small Jesuit community escaped unscathed,
while every other person who was within a radius of roughly one and a
half kilometers from the center of the explosion died immediately. The
church house where the Jesuits lived was still standing, while the
buildings in every direction from it were leveled."

Even if it isn't true (it probably isn't) the fact that some people are eager to show it as a miraculous occurence speaks a lot about the morality of their beliefs. If God can miracolously protect people from the harm caused by others, why doesn't he does it more often? Are we to believe that a perfectly fair God only protect those who worship him exactly as he likes?

Also, seems to me that proclaiming these things as miracles implies abandoning the free will theodicy completely, God can create magical auras to protect his favorite childs from harm, and this is somehow not an infringement on our free will?

There was a page debunking that miracle ('how fables become facts') but now I'm unable to find it. If someone has a link it would be very helpful.

BTW, I'm having problems with URLs here, how do you close them?

]]> By: StaceyJW http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34909 StaceyJW Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:33:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34909 It angers me when PEOPLE solve a pressing problem caused by a tragic event- like getting a vaccine to a remote place or when a firefighter manages to rescue someone from a tragic fire, or when people work together to escape a burning plane- and they call it the "work of god!". It's NOT "gods hand" intervening, its the product of people in a civilized, advanced society, working for the common good- together in the face of calamity. You could also say it is the HUMAN will to survive playing a role in some cases. When HUMANS work with skill and heroism to avert a disaster, or lessen a disasters effects, it is insulting to give credit to 'god', like each person didn't make conscious choice to step in and solve the problem! If it was "god", why would he step in and rescue SOME people from an event that he either created or allowed to happen? (assuming that one believes that god is in charge of everyday life, of course)Why have a tragedy in the first place? Doesn't 'god' love All of "his children'? I bet that those people think they were saved because they are devout, and that the others must have been sinners that had the vengence of 'god' coming for their sins! That's how some people think, which is disgusting, and shows their belief in divine retribution for the sinners- even when their 'god' Jesus actively courted sinners. (according to Christian beliefs anyway) stacey It angers me when PEOPLE solve a pressing problem caused by a tragic event- like getting a vaccine to a remote place or when a firefighter manages to rescue someone from a tragic fire, or when people work together to escape a burning plane- and they call it the "work of god!".

It's NOT "gods hand" intervening, its the product of people in a civilized, advanced society, working for the common good- together in the face of calamity. You could also say it is the HUMAN will to survive playing a role in some cases. When HUMANS work with skill and heroism to avert a disaster, or lessen a disasters effects, it is insulting to give credit to 'god', like each person didn't make conscious choice to step in and solve the problem!

If it was "god", why would he step in and rescue SOME people from an event that he either created or allowed to happen? (assuming that one believes that god is in charge of everyday life, of course)Why have a tragedy in the first place? Doesn't 'god' love All of "his children'?

I bet that those people think they were saved because they are devout, and that the others must have been sinners that had the vengence of 'god' coming for their sins! That's how some people think, which is disgusting, and shows their belief in divine retribution for the sinners- even when their 'god' Jesus actively courted sinners. (according to Christian beliefs anyway)

stacey

]]> By: John http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34639 John Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:29:15 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34639 I remember watching the boxing day tsunami disaster on the News several years ago where 250000 people died and the Christian who was in the room watching it with me said - "Imagine all the testimonies". I couldnt believe what I was hearing. I remember watching the boxing day tsunami disaster on the News several years ago where 250000 people died and the Christian who was in the room watching it with me said - "Imagine all the testimonies". I couldnt believe what I was hearing.

]]> By: Humilty? at Speedkill http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34616 Humilty? at Speedkill Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:15:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34616 [...] You’ll find none here. God saved the missionaries and lit a 15 year old on fire. Sounds like a good plan to me. [...] [...] You’ll find none here. God saved the missionaries and lit a 15 year old on fire. Sounds like a good plan to me. [...]

]]> By: Roi des Foux http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34574 Roi des Foux Sun, 20 Apr 2008 03:11:50 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34574 This reminds me of something I read in a local paper a few years back: A man came home from work a little earlier than usual. He found his wife lying motionless on the kitchen floor, and he immediately called 911. A blood vessel had burst in her brain. She suffered brain damage, leaving her partially paralyzed, but the doctors were able to save her life. If the man hadn't come home from work early that day, she would have died on the kitchen floor. The man <i>thanked god</i> (I don't remember the exact quotation, but it was clear that it wasn't an empty phrase; he was actually "thanking god") that he had returned home early enough to save his wife's life. I'm having a hard time deciding which mentality is more disturbing. The business with the plane crash shows a horrifying devaluation of human life. But to give god credit for saving his wife's life, without assigning god any blame for the injury strikes me not as an ethical failing, but a complete inability to apply logical thought to one's religious beliefs. This reminds me of something I read in a local paper a few years back:

A man came home from work a little earlier than usual. He found his wife lying motionless on the kitchen floor, and he immediately called 911. A blood vessel had burst in her brain. She suffered brain damage, leaving her partially paralyzed, but the doctors were able to save her life. If the man hadn't come home from work early that day, she would have died on the kitchen floor. The man thanked god (I don't remember the exact quotation, but it was clear that it wasn't an empty phrase; he was actually "thanking god") that he had returned home early enough to save his wife's life.

I'm having a hard time deciding which mentality is more disturbing. The business with the plane crash shows a horrifying devaluation of human life. But to give god credit for saving his wife's life, without assigning god any blame for the injury strikes me not as an ethical failing, but a complete inability to apply logical thought to one's religious beliefs.

]]> By: goyo http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34549 goyo Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:31:39 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34549 Excellent comments all. I always remember my mom telling me when someone from our church died, that god needed them in heaven. When my dad died two years ago after a surgery, after the whole church praying for him for three days, (to which they always add on the "if it be thy will" tag), I wanted to ask her if god needed a watchmaker to fix his old Bulova. Remember, there's a kick-ass band in heaven, too: Hendrix, Joplin, Elvis, Morrison, etc... Excellent comments all. I always remember my mom telling me when someone from our church died, that god needed them in heaven.
When my dad died two years ago after a surgery, after the whole church praying for him for three days, (to which they always add on the "if it be thy will" tag), I wanted to ask her if god needed a watchmaker to fix his old Bulova.
Remember, there's a kick-ass band in heaven, too: Hendrix, Joplin, Elvis, Morrison, etc...

]]> By: HairTonic http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34548 HairTonic Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:04:02 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34548 the most common excuse given by Christians in this type of situation is "we can't understand God". Well, they certainly claim to understand him if they think that he is "merciful" or say "he has more work for us to do". "Ugly narcissism" is probably the best term I've seen for this disgusting arrogance. Comment by: velkyn | April 18, 2008, 11:41 am Exactly. "We can't understand god" in its many forms is one of the favourite fallback positions of Christians whenever they encounter a problem with their religion they can't explain away. Other times, this is the premise for complicated, winding and sometimes even circular arguments used to defend their faith. Why then does god create humans to be rational, make Christianity impossible for humans to understand and then expect us to believe in him? the most common excuse given by Christians in this type of situation is "we can't understand God". Well, they certainly claim to understand him if they think that he is "merciful" or say "he has more work for us to do".

"Ugly narcissism" is probably the best term I've seen for this disgusting arrogance.

Comment by: velkyn | April 18, 2008, 11:41 am

Exactly. "We can't understand god" in its many forms is one of the favourite fallback positions of Christians whenever they encounter a problem with their religion they can't explain away. Other times, this is the premise for complicated, winding and sometimes even circular arguments used to defend their faith.

Why then does god create humans to be rational, make Christianity impossible for humans to understand and then expect us to believe in him?

]]> By: Samuel Skinner http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34541 Samuel Skinner Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:26:24 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34541 You know who I'd thank? Myself, for not being stupid enough to buy that cheap Pinto even though it would save me money. You know who I'd thank? Myself, for not being stupid enough to buy that cheap Pinto even though it would save me money.

]]> By: Kyle http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34538 Kyle Sat, 19 Apr 2008 04:40:41 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/the-arrogance-of-the-miraculous.html#comment-34538 The worst is the 9/11 stories about turning to faith. Apparently, God loved everyone in the building so much that he let them be killed by a rival sect running planes into buildings. Or, apparently, God loved SOME people by allowing them to escape but buried 3000+. Or, apparently, it was God's will for them to die. It's awesome when you can rationalize anything. It's the equivalent to the fun game of sports superstition. If I would have worn my secret underwear and my lucky watch, they would have won. Damn, if I hadn't went to the bathroom, we'd have won. The worst is the 9/11 stories about turning to faith. Apparently, God loved everyone in the building so much that he let them be killed by a rival sect running planes into buildings. Or, apparently, God loved SOME people by allowing them to escape but buried 3000+. Or, apparently, it was God's will for them to die.

It's awesome when you can rationalize anything. It's the equivalent to the fun game of sports superstition. If I would have worn my secret underwear and my lucky watch, they would have won. Damn, if I hadn't went to the bathroom, we'd have won.

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