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	<title>Comments on: Theocracy Watch XIII: "You Have No Right to Be Here"</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri,  5 Sep 2008 17:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Christoph</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34418</link>
		<dc:creator>Christoph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34418</guid>
		<description>There is a strange undercurrent to her apology that few have touched on and I find very disturbing.  Her defense that she was on edge because of a recent instance of school violence does not excuse her conduct of why she particularly chose to lose her cool with and attack an atheist.  The fact that she consciously links these two events up in her reasoning for losing her cool makes me wonder if she is one of those Christians a la Tony Perkins who hear of school violence and without an ounce of evidence immediately jumps to the conclusion that the reason for the violence lies in the lack of Jesus in the public school system and that atheists are to blame.  The tone and words she uses in her attack seems to run concurrent with such a stand.  I am sure that we are all aware of those that see someone spit in the street and immediately start harping that it happened because of a lack of Jesus and too much corruptive atheist influence.  I don't think she is the least bit sorry about anything she said or did, just sorry that her real feelings surfaced in such a public setting and were exposed for many to see.  I still feel that she cannot be trusted to look out for the rights and welfare of non-Christians and should be replaced by someone who isn't bringing their "faith" into the mix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a strange undercurrent to her apology that few have touched on and I find very disturbing.  Her defense that she was on edge because of a recent instance of school violence does not excuse her conduct of why she particularly chose to lose her cool with and attack an atheist.  The fact that she consciously links these two events up in her reasoning for losing her cool makes me wonder if she is one of those Christians a la Tony Perkins who hear of school violence and without an ounce of evidence immediately jumps to the conclusion that the reason for the violence lies in the lack of Jesus in the public school system and that atheists are to blame.  The tone and words she uses in her attack seems to run concurrent with such a stand.  I am sure that we are all aware of those that see someone spit in the street and immediately start harping that it happened because of a lack of Jesus and too much corruptive atheist influence.  I don't think she is the least bit sorry about anything she said or did, just sorry that her real feelings surfaced in such a public setting and were exposed for many to see.  I still feel that she cannot be trusted to look out for the rights and welfare of non-Christians and should be replaced by someone who isn't bringing their "faith" into the mix.</p>
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		<title>By: velkyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34364</link>
		<dc:creator>velkyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34364</guid>
		<description>What about being angry makes a woman lie?  That's all I want to know.  Has anyone asked this woman if she believes what she said?  Anyone at all.  And now Keith Olbermann has called Mr. Sherman one of his "worst persons in the world" for daring to say that he is curious why a Negro woman, a member of a group that was oppressed thinks she can do the same to those she doesn't agree with.  I'm not sure if he was more offended by the use of the word "negro" (United Negro College Fund, anyone?) or someone having the un-PC courage to call an African-American a bigot in so many words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about being angry makes a woman lie?  That's all I want to know.  Has anyone asked this woman if she believes what she said?  Anyone at all.  And now Keith Olbermann has called Mr. Sherman one of his "worst persons in the world" for daring to say that he is curious why a Negro woman, a member of a group that was oppressed thinks she can do the same to those she doesn't agree with.  I'm not sure if he was more offended by the use of the word "negro" (United Negro College Fund, anyone?) or someone having the un-PC courage to call an African-American a bigot in so many words.</p>
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		<title>By: Atheist Revolution</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34252</link>
		<dc:creator>Atheist Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34252</guid>
		<description>Rep. Davis Must Issue Public Apology

Calling Rob Sherman to apologize for her bigoted tirade was a step in the right direction, however Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago) still owes a public apology to the millions of American atheists to whom her public comments were also directed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rep. Davis Must Issue Public Apology</p>
<p>Calling Rob Sherman to apologize for her bigoted tirade was a step in the right direction, however Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago) still owes a public apology to the millions of American atheists to whom her public comments were also directed.</p>
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		<title>By: RiddleOfSteel</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34243</link>
		<dc:creator>RiddleOfSteel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34243</guid>
		<description>Haven’t been around here for a while and just trying to get caught up on all the interesting posts – glad to see you are covering this incident.  Living in the Chicago area, I am appreciative of Rob Sherman for taking actions to oppose the Illinois Senate and it’s attempts to promote religion.  Perhaps the outburst by Monique Davis was partly a result of residual anger that he worked to appose the recently enacted Student Prayer Act legislation, that was last year forced on public school children.  Rep. Davis had been speaking out in favor of this act mandating school prayer or reflection.  (Sure – reflection.  Wink wink, nudge nudge.)  A lawsuit brought by Sherman resulted in a judge issuing a preliminary injunction against implementing the Student Prayer Act in the school attended by Sherman’s daughter.  This had a domino effect with many schools ending the mandatory moment, and the state legislature considering rescinding it.  (Although now the legislature is considering a lesser voluntary moment – which is sort of what we already had.)  Really it’s mind boggling that our legislature seemingly has nothing better to do than engage in these shenanigans.

Ebonmuse also mentions that Monique Davis and the Illinois governor are Democrats – and it should be noted that both house and senate are controlled by Democrats.  Although to be fair, the governor did oppose the Student Prayer Act.  Regardless, it certainly isn’t just Republicans involved in this stuff.  

In a comment above, someone also seemed to be blaming the federal government for this situation in Illinois.  I am not sure how the feds are involved with the Baptist church rebuild effort – my understanding is the state designated the church as having landmark type status, and state funds are proposed for contribution to the rebuild.  The entire sordid history is really something, since one million dollars was already given in a previous grant to the church, only to somehow end up being used by a private school that was renting space in the church – no one is quite sure at the moment how that happened.  But there is also mixed up in it all - a pardon for one of the school operators and sexual harassment claims against some workers.  In politics they say there is the way everyone else does it – and then there is “The Chicago Way”.  What a mess!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven’t been around here for a while and just trying to get caught up on all the interesting posts – glad to see you are covering this incident.  Living in the Chicago area, I am appreciative of Rob Sherman for taking actions to oppose the Illinois Senate and it’s attempts to promote religion.  Perhaps the outburst by Monique Davis was partly a result of residual anger that he worked to appose the recently enacted Student Prayer Act legislation, that was last year forced on public school children.  Rep. Davis had been speaking out in favor of this act mandating school prayer or reflection.  (Sure – reflection.  Wink wink, nudge nudge.)  A lawsuit brought by Sherman resulted in a judge issuing a preliminary injunction against implementing the Student Prayer Act in the school attended by Sherman’s daughter.  This had a domino effect with many schools ending the mandatory moment, and the state legislature considering rescinding it.  (Although now the legislature is considering a lesser voluntary moment – which is sort of what we already had.)  Really it’s mind boggling that our legislature seemingly has nothing better to do than engage in these shenanigans.</p>
<p>Ebonmuse also mentions that Monique Davis and the Illinois governor are Democrats – and it should be noted that both house and senate are controlled by Democrats.  Although to be fair, the governor did oppose the Student Prayer Act.  Regardless, it certainly isn’t just Republicans involved in this stuff.  </p>
<p>In a comment above, someone also seemed to be blaming the federal government for this situation in Illinois.  I am not sure how the feds are involved with the Baptist church rebuild effort – my understanding is the state designated the church as having landmark type status, and state funds are proposed for contribution to the rebuild.  The entire sordid history is really something, since one million dollars was already given in a previous grant to the church, only to somehow end up being used by a private school that was renting space in the church – no one is quite sure at the moment how that happened.  But there is also mixed up in it all - a pardon for one of the school operators and sexual harassment claims against some workers.  In politics they say there is the way everyone else does it – and then there is “The Chicago Way”.  What a mess!</p>
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		<title>By: Atheist Revolution</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34120</link>
		<dc:creator>Atheist Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34120</guid>
		<description>Rep. Davis' "Apology" Is Not Enough

Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago) finally apologized to atheist activist Rob Sherman for her tirade of bigotry. She was reportedly stressed over learning about the death of a Chicago are public school student, somehow excusing her behavior. Sherman has ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rep. Davis' "Apology" Is Not Enough</p>
<p>Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago) finally apologized to atheist activist Rob Sherman for her tirade of bigotry. She was reportedly stressed over learning about the death of a Chicago are public school student, somehow excusing her behavior. Sherman has ...</p>
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		<title>By: bipolar2</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34101</link>
		<dc:creator>bipolar2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 02:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34101</guid>
		<description>** the perils of Pauline indoctrination **

Xianity still appeals to those who believe themselves mistreated. To those in whom resentment surges. To those who must blame others. To those who must punish their guilty selves. 

Xianity is practical nihilism. Directed inward, hatred of self. Directed outward, hatred of others and the world.

This is not some peripheral ideological stance -- it is the dark heart and sick soul of Paul's life-negating world view, tarted up as a religion of “love”.

bipolar2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>** the perils of Pauline indoctrination **</p>
<p>Xianity still appeals to those who believe themselves mistreated. To those in whom resentment surges. To those who must blame others. To those who must punish their guilty selves. </p>
<p>Xianity is practical nihilism. Directed inward, hatred of self. Directed outward, hatred of others and the world.</p>
<p>This is not some peripheral ideological stance -- it is the dark heart and sick soul of Paul's life-negating world view, tarted up as a religion of “love”.</p>
<p>bipolar2</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34092</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34092</guid>
		<description>According to some local sources, &lt;a href="http://www.wbbm780.com/Lawmaker-Apologizes-For-Comments-Against-Atheist/1980701" rel="nofollow"&gt;Rep. Davis contacted Rob Sherman to apologize&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;a href="http://www.robsherman.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Rob Sherman's web site&lt;/a&gt; agrees and says he accepted her apology:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Yesterday, State Representative Monique Davis (D-Chicago) called me from the Floor of the Illinois House of Representatives to apologize for what she had said to me at last Wednesday's hearing of the House State Government Administration Committee.  Rep. Davis had said, among other things, that atheism is dangerous to the progression of the State of Illinois, that children should not be allowed to know that my philosophy (atheism) exists, and that I had no right to testify to any Illinois legislative committee because the People of Illinois believe in God.  She concluded by ordering me to "Get out of that seat!"

Some bloggers have asked what I said to instigate Rep. Davis' comments.  I was testifying about why the Governor's proposal to donate one million tax dollars to Pilgrim Baptist Church is unconstitutional.  Specifically, I was reading, in a very calm manner, from my laptop computer, the words in the March 4th "Latest Update," which appear below and which explains why the proposal to give money to the church is unconstitutional.

Rep. Davis said that she had been upset, earlier in the day, to learn that a twenty-second and twenty-third Chicago Public School student this school year had been shot to death that morning.  She said that it was wrong for her to take out her anger, frustrations and emotions on me, and that she apologized to me.

I told her that her explanation was reasonable and that I forgave her.  I also suggested that if she really was concerned about public school students dying needlessly, she should look into helping me to get passed legislation to get lap and shoulder seat belts on school busses that is pending in the House and in the Senate.

She thanked me for forgiving her and said that she would look into those two pieces of legislation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Personally, I think Davis' explanation is pretty thin. Her anger at the shooting may be justifiable, but one could hardly believe it would cause her to suddenly feel prejudice toward atheists. (If it had been a Jewish person testifying before her committee, would she have started shouting, "You Jews believe in destroying!"?) More likely, because she was upset, she let slip a prejudice that she already held. Still, if Sherman accepts it, that's good enough for me. And the best thing is, his forgiving her gives him the moral high ground - a very smart move.

Even if Davis doesn't resign, I think we've accomplished something significant by this whole affair: we've shown American politicians that you can't expect to insult atheists and get away with it without censure. Rest assured, tonight there are some officeholders out there thinking that we may have a bit more political muscle than they had previously realized. If that persuades them to take our concerns more seriously in the future, then this shameful episode may end up being a very good thing for us overall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to some local sources, <a href="http://www.wbbm780.com/Lawmaker-Apologizes-For-Comments-Against-Atheist/1980701" rel="nofollow">Rep. Davis contacted Rob Sherman to apologize</a>. <a href="http://www.robsherman.com/" rel="nofollow">Rob Sherman's web site</a> agrees and says he accepted her apology:</p>
<blockquote><p>Yesterday, State Representative Monique Davis (D-Chicago) called me from the Floor of the Illinois House of Representatives to apologize for what she had said to me at last Wednesday's hearing of the House State Government Administration Committee.  Rep. Davis had said, among other things, that atheism is dangerous to the progression of the State of Illinois, that children should not be allowed to know that my philosophy (atheism) exists, and that I had no right to testify to any Illinois legislative committee because the People of Illinois believe in God.  She concluded by ordering me to "Get out of that seat!"</p>
<p>Some bloggers have asked what I said to instigate Rep. Davis' comments.  I was testifying about why the Governor's proposal to donate one million tax dollars to Pilgrim Baptist Church is unconstitutional.  Specifically, I was reading, in a very calm manner, from my laptop computer, the words in the March 4th "Latest Update," which appear below and which explains why the proposal to give money to the church is unconstitutional.</p>
<p>Rep. Davis said that she had been upset, earlier in the day, to learn that a twenty-second and twenty-third Chicago Public School student this school year had been shot to death that morning.  She said that it was wrong for her to take out her anger, frustrations and emotions on me, and that she apologized to me.</p>
<p>I told her that her explanation was reasonable and that I forgave her.  I also suggested that if she really was concerned about public school students dying needlessly, she should look into helping me to get passed legislation to get lap and shoulder seat belts on school busses that is pending in the House and in the Senate.</p>
<p>She thanked me for forgiving her and said that she would look into those two pieces of legislation.</p></blockquote>
<p>Personally, I think Davis' explanation is pretty thin. Her anger at the shooting may be justifiable, but one could hardly believe it would cause her to suddenly feel prejudice toward atheists. (If it had been a Jewish person testifying before her committee, would she have started shouting, "You Jews believe in destroying!"?) More likely, because she was upset, she let slip a prejudice that she already held. Still, if Sherman accepts it, that's good enough for me. And the best thing is, his forgiving her gives him the moral high ground - a very smart move.</p>
<p>Even if Davis doesn't resign, I think we've accomplished something significant by this whole affair: we've shown American politicians that you can't expect to insult atheists and get away with it without censure. Rest assured, tonight there are some officeholders out there thinking that we may have a bit more political muscle than they had previously realized. If that persuades them to take our concerns more seriously in the future, then this shameful episode may end up being a very good thing for us overall.</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34088</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34088</guid>
		<description>"Given that there are/were so many religions in so many societies it seems reasonable to suppose that there might be some evolutionarily adaptive value (maybe just at the memetic level, maybe at the genetic level too, "god genes" anyone?) to having a religion. A testable hypothesis, and apparently it has been tested by someone, somewhere." -- Rob

Interesting? Possibly.  But the profusion of religious thought is not evidence for its usefulness; rather, it is a measure of its popularity.  An alternative explanation for religion's existence:

Man looks up in sky at lightning, hears thunder, is frightened; we'll call him Ken.  He notes that fire has started where lightning struck.  He goes to the wise old man of the tribe -- who's actually a touch senile.  Wise old man tells Ken that Joe the sky god is upset because this stupid tribe neglected to sacrifice to him yet again.  So this man has a great idea -- to appease Joe, he'll not only make a sacrifice, it'll be a double dose, and to boot, he'll use the fire -- let's call it "the Eternal Flame", for Ken has vowed to tend it wherever the tribe wanders.  Now, where to find two virgins?

Five years later, Ken has become leader of the tribe, largely due to his ability to read weathersign as well as he does.   He doesn't let on to the tribe; they seem to think he's in touch with Joe, and because of that, they give Ken power over them -- and on occasion their virgin daughters.  Besides, if they don't believe Ken is nearer to Joe, then Ken can cast them out.  He's done so several times already, once in the middle of winter.

Ken has grown comfortable in his old age, and had many children -- some have even survived to adulthood thanks to the animal sacrifices the tribe brings.  But none can read the weather; so Ken picks the brightest tribe member, and begins to teach him.  But his heart isn't in it, and the student picks up on the cynical, tired tone, and sees (perhaps better than Ken himself) that this is the perfect means for control.

********

Obviously speculative, it at least has the strength of relying on qualities we already see in people, rather than postulating god genes and such.

And my apologies, Adam, to such a long digression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Given that there are/were so many religions in so many societies it seems reasonable to suppose that there might be some evolutionarily adaptive value (maybe just at the memetic level, maybe at the genetic level too, "god genes" anyone?) to having a religion. A testable hypothesis, and apparently it has been tested by someone, somewhere." -- Rob</p>
<p>Interesting? Possibly.  But the profusion of religious thought is not evidence for its usefulness; rather, it is a measure of its popularity.  An alternative explanation for religion's existence:</p>
<p>Man looks up in sky at lightning, hears thunder, is frightened; we'll call him Ken.  He notes that fire has started where lightning struck.  He goes to the wise old man of the tribe -- who's actually a touch senile.  Wise old man tells Ken that Joe the sky god is upset because this stupid tribe neglected to sacrifice to him yet again.  So this man has a great idea -- to appease Joe, he'll not only make a sacrifice, it'll be a double dose, and to boot, he'll use the fire -- let's call it "the Eternal Flame", for Ken has vowed to tend it wherever the tribe wanders.  Now, where to find two virgins?</p>
<p>Five years later, Ken has become leader of the tribe, largely due to his ability to read weathersign as well as he does.   He doesn't let on to the tribe; they seem to think he's in touch with Joe, and because of that, they give Ken power over them -- and on occasion their virgin daughters.  Besides, if they don't believe Ken is nearer to Joe, then Ken can cast them out.  He's done so several times already, once in the middle of winter.</p>
<p>Ken has grown comfortable in his old age, and had many children -- some have even survived to adulthood thanks to the animal sacrifices the tribe brings.  But none can read the weather; so Ken picks the brightest tribe member, and begins to teach him.  But his heart isn't in it, and the student picks up on the cynical, tired tone, and sees (perhaps better than Ken himself) that this is the perfect means for control.</p>
<p>********</p>
<p>Obviously speculative, it at least has the strength of relying on qualities we already see in people, rather than postulating god genes and such.</p>
<p>And my apologies, Adam, to such a long digression.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34053</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34053</guid>
		<description>Rob,

I'm pretty sure I know about the article you're talking about. If memory serves, it was in a famous magazine fairly recently. I do have an article about the scientific exploration of religion in my favorites links, but I don't think that's it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure I know about the article you're talking about. If memory serves, it was in a famous magazine fairly recently. I do have an article about the scientific exploration of religion in my favorites links, but I don't think that's it.</p>
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		<title>By: Javaman</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34052</link>
		<dc:creator>Javaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/04/theocracy-watch-xiii-2.html#comment-34052</guid>
		<description>I called Monique Davis's Chicago office today to voice my rage in a very polite, controlled manner. A very nice office representative listened to me and all I had to say, and sheepishly responded that Ms. Davis, in the heat of the argument, said some things when she was running hot. I informed her rep that Ms. Davis had touched the third rail and had better issue an apology to our community rapidly. We have to push this story into the national spotlight. This was outrageous! We cannot let this stand. She is branding us as dangerous outsiders who have no rights, no freedom of speech and no place at the table. I wonder if she thinks we should have the right to vote? We all need to call her office and let her know she cannot get away with talk like this in today's times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I called Monique Davis's Chicago office today to voice my rage in a very polite, controlled manner. A very nice office representative listened to me and all I had to say, and sheepishly responded that Ms. Davis, in the heat of the argument, said some things when she was running hot. I informed her rep that Ms. Davis had touched the third rail and had better issue an apology to our community rapidly. We have to push this story into the national spotlight. This was outrageous! We cannot let this stand. She is branding us as dangerous outsiders who have no rights, no freedom of speech and no place at the table. I wonder if she thinks we should have the right to vote? We all need to call her office and let her know she cannot get away with talk like this in today's times.</p>
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