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	<title>Comments on: Dawn of the Dead: Are Zombies Possible?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 18:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35357</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 23:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35357</guid>
		<description>Oh, yes, but "average joe dualists" are idiots; why would you waste your time arguing against &lt;i&gt;them&lt;/i&gt;? It's the strongest arguments for dualism that warrant your attention, at least insofar as you are interested in the truth of the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yes, but "average joe dualists" are idiots; why would you waste your time arguing against <i>them</i>? It's the strongest arguments for dualism that warrant your attention, at least insofar as you are interested in the truth of the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: writerdd</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35330</link>
		<dc:creator>writerdd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 13:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35330</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But nobody disputes that the physical substrate (e.g. brain) is necessary for consciousness. The question is whether it metaphysically suffices.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually, you are mistaken. 

Professional philosophers may think that way, but dualists who are my neighbors and probably yours do not. They believe, for example, that the spirit (soul, consciousness, call it what you will) survives the death of the body. They do not believe that people with brain damage have lost their consciousness, but rather that their spirit/soul is just trapped in their bodies and unable to communicate to the outside world. They do not think that people with serious mental disabilities caused by the brain have any less of a "soul" than those of us with healthy brains; again the trapped in the body analogy is apt.  Most "average joe" dualists do not think that consciousness depends upon brain function in any real or tangible way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But nobody disputes that the physical substrate (e.g. brain) is necessary for consciousness. The question is whether it metaphysically suffices.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, you are mistaken. </p>
<p>Professional philosophers may think that way, but dualists who are my neighbors and probably yours do not. They believe, for example, that the spirit (soul, consciousness, call it what you will) survives the death of the body. They do not believe that people with brain damage have lost their consciousness, but rather that their spirit/soul is just trapped in their bodies and unable to communicate to the outside world. They do not think that people with serious mental disabilities caused by the brain have any less of a "soul" than those of us with healthy brains; again the trapped in the body analogy is apt.  Most "average joe" dualists do not think that consciousness depends upon brain function in any real or tangible way.</p>
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		<title>By: TrekGirl</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35303</link>
		<dc:creator>TrekGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 21:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35303</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We see colors: the redness of red, the greenness of green. We hear tones, sharp or high-pitched or dull or low. We taste flavors, salty or bitter or sweet. We feel emotions like joy, anger, or sadness. Zombies, by contrast, have none of these experiences.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  Neither did I after a few days on Zyrtec!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We see colors: the redness of red, the greenness of green. We hear tones, sharp or high-pitched or dull or low. We taste flavors, salty or bitter or sweet. We feel emotions like joy, anger, or sadness. Zombies, by contrast, have none of these experiences.</p></blockquote>
<p>  Neither did I after a few days on Zyrtec!</p>
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		<title>By: GNZ</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35276</link>
		<dc:creator>GNZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 06:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35276</guid>
		<description>before one surrenders the definition of zombie entirely I note the following.

lets say there is a conceivable world with a bridging law such that the equivalent of a "zombie" created in our world (not a p-zombie by Richard's definition) has qualia. An identical Richard in that world refers to that zombie in this world is a p-zombie while Richard here refers to the same zombie as not a p-zombie.

as to disproving qualia, one can easily be lead on a wild goose chase - note that qualia are a effect not a cause and are vaguely defined. If you want to disprove such an idea you must either find an effect that contradicts our understanding of the world (but it has no physical effects) or prove an internal contradiction (which would require some detail on the nature of qualia).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>before one surrenders the definition of zombie entirely I note the following.</p>
<p>lets say there is a conceivable world with a bridging law such that the equivalent of a "zombie" created in our world (not a p-zombie by Richard's definition) has qualia. An identical Richard in that world refers to that zombie in this world is a p-zombie while Richard here refers to the same zombie as not a p-zombie.</p>
<p>as to disproving qualia, one can easily be lead on a wild goose chase - note that qualia are a effect not a cause and are vaguely defined. If you want to disprove such an idea you must either find an effect that contradicts our understanding of the world (but it has no physical effects) or prove an internal contradiction (which would require some detail on the nature of qualia).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35267</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 00:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35267</guid>
		<description>"&lt;i&gt;we can say the functioning brain is what causes consciousness&lt;/i&gt;"

But nobody disputes that the physical substrate (e.g. brain) is &lt;i&gt;necessary&lt;/i&gt; for consciousness. The question is whether it metaphysically &lt;i&gt;suffices&lt;/i&gt;. Perhaps, as dualists contend, the brain gives rise to consciousness only because of certain extra-physical background conditions (e.g. psycho-physical bridging laws) that could have been absent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"<i>we can say the functioning brain is what causes consciousness</i>"</p>
<p>But nobody disputes that the physical substrate (e.g. brain) is <i>necessary</i> for consciousness. The question is whether it metaphysically <i>suffices</i>. Perhaps, as dualists contend, the brain gives rise to consciousness only because of certain extra-physical background conditions (e.g. psycho-physical bridging laws) that could have been absent.</p>
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		<title>By: writerdd</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35265</link>
		<dc:creator>writerdd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 22:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35265</guid>
		<description>Actually,  Richard, I didn't mean that to be an example of something working perfectly in entirety. But if we can show that many different aspects of the system are merely brain functions, then that implies that the whole system is a conglomeration of various brain functions. I was not trying to give an example of a person that is a zombie, because that would be impossible -- we would, as others have mentioned, have no way to know. The only time we can see how the system functions is when part of it malfunctions. By seeing what makes it malfunction -- that is, direct damage to the brain, not some sort of lack of spiritual activity -- then we can say the functioning brain is what causes consciousness, not the presence of some sort of spiritual activity. On the other hand, if brain damage did not ever cause any changes in consciousness, we could come to the conclusion that consciousness was not a function of the brain, and it would be appropriate to look for another cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually,  Richard, I didn't mean that to be an example of something working perfectly in entirety. But if we can show that many different aspects of the system are merely brain functions, then that implies that the whole system is a conglomeration of various brain functions. I was not trying to give an example of a person that is a zombie, because that would be impossible -- we would, as others have mentioned, have no way to know. The only time we can see how the system functions is when part of it malfunctions. By seeing what makes it malfunction -- that is, direct damage to the brain, not some sort of lack of spiritual activity -- then we can say the functioning brain is what causes consciousness, not the presence of some sort of spiritual activity. On the other hand, if brain damage did not ever cause any changes in consciousness, we could come to the conclusion that consciousness was not a function of the brain, and it would be appropriate to look for another cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35256</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 17:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35256</guid>
		<description>But they think that's because of the physical differences, so the object in question is no zombie (it lacks qualia, but it is not a physical duplicate of a conscious being). The rejection of Strong AI is perfectly compatible with physicalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But they think that's because of the physical differences, so the object in question is no zombie (it lacks qualia, but it is not a physical duplicate of a conscious being). The rejection of Strong AI is perfectly compatible with physicalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35255</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35255</guid>
		<description>I don't agree that this is a straw man, Richard. For instance, what is David Searle's Chinese Room if not a zombie? I don't recall Searle ever stating that it would be impossible to build such a thing, only that it wouldn't have subjective conscious experience if it was built. Similarly, there's Ned Block's China-body thought experiment. Granted there are some philosophers, such as David Chalmers, who believe zombies are impossible; but there are others who believe in the possibility of an actually existing being with absent qualia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't agree that this is a straw man, Richard. For instance, what is David Searle's Chinese Room if not a zombie? I don't recall Searle ever stating that it would be impossible to build such a thing, only that it wouldn't have subjective conscious experience if it was built. Similarly, there's Ned Block's China-body thought experiment. Granted there are some philosophers, such as David Chalmers, who believe zombies are impossible; but there are others who believe in the possibility of an actually existing being with absent qualia.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35254</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35254</guid>
		<description>WriterDD - I wouldn't say the perceptual capabilities of blindsight or split-brain patients were "working perfectly". Only &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; aspects were. Other behavioural aspects, e.g. the capacity to verbally &lt;i&gt;report&lt;/i&gt; what one is perceiving, were defective. So they are not really 'zombies' in the philosopher's sense of beings that are physically and behaviourally &lt;i&gt;indistinguishable&lt;/i&gt; from a conscious person.

(So, ironically, it's the very fact that you have some empirical grounds for thinking them non-conscious 'zombies' which guarantees that the attribution doesn't quite fit.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WriterDD - I wouldn't say the perceptual capabilities of blindsight or split-brain patients were "working perfectly". Only <i>some</i> aspects were. Other behavioural aspects, e.g. the capacity to verbally <i>report</i> what one is perceiving, were defective. So they are not really 'zombies' in the philosopher's sense of beings that are physically and behaviourally <i>indistinguishable</i> from a conscious person.</p>
<p>(So, ironically, it's the very fact that you have some empirical grounds for thinking them non-conscious 'zombies' which guarantees that the attribution doesn't quite fit.)</p>
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		<title>By: writerdd</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/are-zombies-possible.html#comment-35253</link>
		<dc:creator>writerdd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=722#comment-35253</guid>
		<description>Actually, studies that have been done with people who have brain damage don't show that zombies prove consciousness is supernatural or spiritual, but rather that is just part of brain function. 

For example, one person could not "see" an item that was thrown at them on the left side of their body. But they caught the item every time, preventing themselves from being injured, showing that they did actually see the item, but they were unaware of seeing it. In a sense, they were acting just like a zombie in this scenario. They had no qualia or consciousness of sensory input regarding the left side of their body, but the actually sensory input was there and working perfectly, even to the extent that it created the desired outcome: preventing injury.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, studies that have been done with people who have brain damage don't show that zombies prove consciousness is supernatural or spiritual, but rather that is just part of brain function. </p>
<p>For example, one person could not "see" an item that was thrown at them on the left side of their body. But they caught the item every time, preventing themselves from being injured, showing that they did actually see the item, but they were unaware of seeing it. In a sense, they were acting just like a zombie in this scenario. They had no qualia or consciousness of sensory input regarding the left side of their body, but the actually sensory input was there and working perfectly, even to the extent that it created the desired outcome: preventing injury.</p>
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