That is another thing you have to assume with prayer, because it is assumed in Judaism and Christianity that God can not tamper with free will, therefore he couldn't grant prayers that mess with free will.

It occurred to me that this would make god completely impotent to do anything in the world. No prayers could be answered if god can not act without tampering with free will - at least not in the sense that you are using it.

To Mrnaglfar, well if you want to start the whole debate about how god is unprovable, go right ahead, but there is really no point you either believe in a higher power or you don't.

I would say that there is a point to it though, and that is: do your beliefs have any basis in rationality?

However I will say that there are plenty of things in science that have absolutely no explanation and stares blatantly at scientists that they are wrong yet no one says anything. The information loss paradox, the unexplained energy of the universe expanding, many models of gravity on a small and large scale don't work, yet you blindly follow science as an absolute and drawer from pure logic.

Yes, there are many gaps in our knowledge, so what? Who here follows science as an absolute, and what does "and drawer from pure logic" mean anyway? The fact is that science is the best method that we've found to study and understand the natural world around us. That's not to say that there aren't other possible methods or that science is the best conceivable method, but there don't seem to be a lot of competing methods right now and you can't argue with science's track record. That it hasn't yielded all the information in the universe instantaneously is both overly demanding and a silly reason to speak in disdainful terms.

Also yes I would argue that it is possible for HIV and death to be better for the overall good of mankind.

For a loving god, it's weird that he would find HIV to be necessary considering all the suffering that HIV patients go through. It seems a bit gratuitous to me.

There sheer amount of space everyone would constitute if no one died would be absurd, and if expanded further I'm sure you could find many basic resources that would be gone.

Yes, that is true. However, for an omni-max god, this should not be a problem. You make the mistake of thinking that this Earth, this universe was the only thing god could create - that he couldn't create a universe where we wouldn't be competing for resources that wouldn't be there.

But on the pain and suffering thought of things, yes it is a horrible tragedy to go through, but many people are inspired by those who are strong through tragedy.

There are other ways to be inspired than pain and suffering. Are you really advocating that people get HIV/AIDS and suffer so that they can be uplifting role models for others?

To the drug abuse I would argue that, that is free will.

Some people have addictive personalities that are certainly not a result of some choice. Some can take drugs and not be addicted for some time, while others are addicted after their first contact. This is not a case of free will. Although it is a choice to take that first drug, which of us has never taken any drug? All of us have taken some drug at some point, whether it be caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, THC, etc.

That is another thing you have to assume with prayer, because it is assumed in Judaism and Christianity that God can not tamper with free will, therefore he couldn't grant prayers that mess with free will.

Anytime someone says "god can not" I have to wonder why an omni-max being can't do something - at least something that isn't logically contradictory. Either way, when I pray, I'm expressing my free will. I'm asking for something that I'm choosing.

But you all are probably never going to give this a second thought.

Yeah, our answers where we go into detail about what you said and make counter-points obviously show that we don't give a second thought to anything you say. Get real.

This is where I would say therefore prayer works because not every prayer can be answered in the fashion I wish but will be answered through what is best overall.

So, in other words: prayer always works, except when it doesn't.

All I can say is this is religion and not science and is based solely on beliefs. Where as science is provable because it answers the how question religion inherently can not be tested because it answers the why question.

At best, religion can answer a question by posing an even bigger one; it doesn't actually answer anything. For instance, a common question is "how did we get here" and religion answers with "god". Of course, the next question is "how did god get there" or "can I ever see god" or "how do I know god cares about us" or "does god exist" or "is god as you describe him" and in the end all the answers come down to some statement about how religion is paradoxical or there's some spooky mysterious god at work whom we can never understand (and he'd like you to donate your money and political support). That's not so much answering a question as it is slapping on an unproven layer and saying it's all beyond our grasp anyway.

Religion can be tested through it's effects it's supposed to have on the world. In your religion, god is supposed to answer prayers, and there are no qualifications for that prayer to be answered. So here's the situation you're now setting up:
1) If prayers get demonstrabily answered, your religion is proven correct
2) However, it is very clear prayers are not getting answered as study after study has shown (unless you consider the power of prayer to be less than the null hypothesis; no better than chance)
3) So since prayers are not being answered you retreat to "These claims are based purely on belief and cannot be tested" even though if the results pointed the other way I can assure you your position would not be so humble.

And just for the record, wishing it were so does not make it so.

Now the reason prayer demonstrates no effect in the data is because there is no effect of prayer. Not once has anything that cannot happen randomly happened because of prayer (no lost limbs getting regrown due to people praying last I checked). Out of those that happen, they happen at no greater a baseline than they do if there is no prayer. In order to not put 2 and 2 together in this case you need to be either ignoring the evidence at hand or denying it.

Also if everyones prayers where answered nothing would happen. One can assume that just as a person prays for one thing there is someone out there praying for the exact opposite.

Are you really trying to imply that for everyone praying for people across the world to not go hungry and die of illness in pain that someone is praying for those same people to die hungry and sick? More to the point, are you also implying that prayer and god work in a democratic fashion and the side with the most prayers decides what god will do? Finally, in a pure shot of arrogance do you honestly believe that a being like god as you descibe him was to actually exist for the sake of argument, that it would actually care what people were praying for and give it serious consideration before he acts (or doesn't)? Kind of makes prayer seem like a serious waste of time.

This is where I would say therefore prayer works because not every prayer can be answered in the fashion I wish but will be answered through what is best overall.

So it's best overall for people to have the HIV virus, and for people to lose limbs and become unable to take care of themselves, to get addicted to drugs and ruin their life, for children to be sexually abused and women raped, for domestic abuse to continue and people to starve to death across the globe, for natural disasters to take the lives of so many people? That's just what I can name off the top of my head, and these are things I'm sure people are praying to stop. How can you just play that off as "prayers not being answered the way people want them to be", and if these prayers are not answered as people want them to be, can you really say they were answered at all? If I ask for a car and get a pair of rollerblades, has my request really been answered?

Basically all I am saying is that Christians for the most part aren't idiots that blindly follow. While there are a great deal who do, the vast majority starts from the same point you are at and draws their own conclusions.

While some may not be idiots (which you could say about most people regardless of faith or lackthereof), they do blindly follow and I say that because there's no other way to accept these beliefs. Upon what do you draw conclusions if not evidence? Speculation perhaps; maybe assumptions; how about a warm tingly feeling? Of course, every other religion uses those same things and draw wildly different conclusions. If you use the evidence (i.e. what actually is) there is no rational reason to believe that god exists. I have yet to hear one.

I was just giving it as an extra thought, I realize that in of itself it is not a very good argument for the seemingly unanswered prayer.

Actually, it speaks against the passage cited.

The only point was, was that if Jesus being God doesn't always have prayers answered the way he wants wouldn't that apply to the rest of us?

Actually, I find this notion to be non-sensical. Jesus is supposedly god, so to not have his own prayers answered doesn't make any sense. In your example of father, son, and brother, they are still one person and not prone to such glaring examples of disconnect, excepting for mental illness. Even though I am may be a brother, father, and son (I'm not actually all those...) the brother part of me doesn't speak to the father part and have those thoughts go unfulfilled. It makes no sense, especially when extrapolated to an omnipotent being. Even granting your every prayer idea, wouldn't Jesus's prayers be for the best, so those should be fulfilled, unless you wish to argue that someone else had a better competing prayer. In that case, you would have to agree that Jesus was not as great as he was made out to be.

Now where as before I was giving a general point of view for prayer I will give you my personal view. Since a common point seems to be the thought of curing disease I will answer that specific question with it also says in the Bible that man is appointed once to live and once to die. Therefore everyone will die and therefore not all diseases for people can be cured for them. More generally I am assuming you mean to argue that prayers are often unanswered and seem to have no impact on our lives at all.

The point of the original post was that there are no provisos given that sometimes people have to die, so some prayers for healing won't work. In fact, it says quite the opposite, that whatever you ask for will be given. If we ask/pray that people don't have to die at all, why should that not be given us?

Where as science is provable because it answers the how question religion inherently can not be tested because it answers the why question.

Actually, I would contest that religion doesn't answer any questions.

Also if everyones prayers where answered nothing would happen.

I find that hard to believe. It's hard to imagine that an exact split of prayers for X or not X exists for all issues.

This is where I would say therefore prayer works because not every prayer can be answered in the fashion I wish but will be answered through what is best overall.

What evidence do you have that god answers prayers in regard to what is best overall? The Bible certainly doesn't give this impression, nor does it paint a god that would be concerned with what is best. Either way, surely you have to concede that prayer for peace and healing would be what is best overall, so why do these prayers have no effect?

However it seems that the general belief here is that since this case exists therefore prayer doesn't work.

Actually, the general feeling is that the scripture says something different and that prayers are not answered as the scripture says they will be. I think a different general feeling (backed up by scientific study) is that prayer fails to work at all.

...the vast majority starts from the same point you are at and draws their own conclusions.

The do start from the same point considering that most of us were Xians at one point, but they don't start from the same point in terms of what is logically and rationally being considered. In order to get to the conclusion of god, one has to assume one's conclusions, which is a logical fallacy. If one starts with a clean slate, then one will not rationally or logically reach the conclusion of god.

From that one can inference that Jesus being God and un-falable would pray perfectly. Therefore even the perfect Christian would not have all prayers answered in a positive way and it is the will of the Father that dominates.

I was just giving it as an extra thought, I realize that in of itself it is not a very good argument for the seemingly unanswered prayer. The only point was, was that if Jesus being God doesn't always have prayers answered the way he wants wouldn't that apply to the rest of us? Again just a thought, nothing I'm really trying to argue there because that point is all based on ones own interpretation.

Further on when you said,

Also, isn't Jesus part of the trinity with the father? Therefore, they are one being, are they not? Or, are you asserting that they are actually multiple beings and that you are a polytheist?

That is a whole different thing and my explanation is going to differ far from many Christians just because that point is where many sects differ beliefs. The best explanation I can give, is yes and no. Yes Jesus is a seperate entity from the father as is the holy spirit but they are all one in the same. Sort of like how one can be a father a son and a brother, three distinct people but one in the same. However when you assume that this being is the reason for existence you can expand that thought further.

Now where as before I was giving a general point of view for prayer I will give you my personal view. Since a common point seems to be the thought of curing disease I will answer that specific question with it also says in the Bible that man is appointed once to live and once to die. Therefore everyone will die and therefore not all diseases for people can be cured for them. More generally I am assuming you mean to argue that prayers are often unanswered and seem to have no impact on our lives at all.

This is probably where you all are going to find the most problems with my statements saying I am making excuses. All I can say is this is religion and not science and is based solely on beliefs. Where as science is provable because it answers the how question religion inherently can not be tested because it answers the why question. Also if everyones prayers where answered nothing would happen. One can assume that just as a person prays for one thing there is someone out there praying for the exact opposite. This is where I would say therefore prayer works because not every prayer can be answered in the fashion I wish but will be answered through what is best overall. However it seems that the general belief here is that since this case exists therefore prayer doesn't work.

Basically all I am saying is that Christians for the most part aren't idiots that blindly follow. While there are a great deal who do, the vast majority starts from the same point you are at and draws their own conclusions.

Since you understand prayer so well and how you know it works try and humor me with this:

Devise an experiment for me. This experiment will clearly demonstrate how prayer works and also demonstrate the beneficial effects we see are due to prayer exclusively.

Also,

Just as I can say I will paint the deck. All that is said is that I will paint the deck, nothing about time or method therefore I can do it however or whenever I please and the original statement is still valid.

Your statement is not valid if the deck gets destroyed before you paint it; same way prayers to save lives by getting cured from an illness are not valid if those people die from the illness anyway.

Therefore I'm not even going to argue with you two because all you are going to say is He doesn't answer prayers how I want it done therefore the bible is wrong.

Are you honestly going to argue in this vein? If I pray for someone to be cured of cancer and they die of cancer, then in what way can the prayer be said to have been answered? If god cures them of cancer after they are already dead, in what way can that prayer be said to have been answered? Knowing that the success rate of prayer is the same as random chance, in what way can one say that prayers are answered? What you have effectively done is say, "Prayer is real and if you object, I'll simply say that you're wrong and declare victory." Yet, the issues I brought up are real questions that need to be answered. If god works on his own time schedule, how does that meet the requirement when god's schedule exceeds the time schedule for fulfillment of the prayer?

From that one can inference that Jesus being God and un-falable would pray perfectly. Therefore even the perfect Christian would not have all prayers answered in a positive way and it is the will of the Father that dominates.

Actually, Jesus's statement sounds rather inclusive to me. He does not say that your prayers will be answered if you pray in the correct fashion. He does not say that your prayers might be answered at the discretion of the father. He plainly states that your prayers will be answered, whatever you ask for. If this is not a case of making qualifications out of thin air...

Also, isn't Jesus part of the trinity with the father? Therefore, they are one being, are they not? Or, are you asserting that they are actually multiple beings and that you are a polytheist?

Well, if I pray for someone who is dying of cancer, I would certainly hope the when would be before the person dies. Alas, we know that is not the case. I would hope the how is that the person is healed, although to use your analogy, if god gave me the keys to the car and allowed me to develop a way to cure the cancer (in a timely manner) that would at least be helpful. Again, alas, we also know that this has not happened. So, it still appears that god does not answer prayers.

No they didn't, they had you go and get it. That's different.
Good grief, you xtians will go to any means to try and explain why jesus just doesn't answer your prayers. Face it, if you get seriously ill, or lose a limb, you're in trouble.

And you two just proved my point exactly when I said,

However there really isn't much point in saying this because all you are going to say is My definition doesn't meet your definition therefore I am wrong.

Therefore I'm not even going to argue with you two because all you are going to say is He doesn't answer prayers how I want it done therefore the bible is wrong. Then after that your probably going to make some comment about how us Christians will make up any excuse for God. However to ebonmuse who said,

No, I wouldn't say that. What I would say is that you're inventing new qualifications out of thin air to rescue the biblical text. The Bible has Jesus say plainly that, "Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do." Obviously, this is not true.

I am not making qualifications out of thin air. The lack of either of them being mentioned makes them automatic qualifiers. Just as I can say I will paint the deck. All that is said is that I will paint the deck, nothing about time or method therefore I can do it however or whenever I please and the original statement is still valid. Though not to open another can of worms just some food for thought according to the bible when Jesus was praying in the garden he prays for his imminent death to pass. However he that not his will, will be done but the Fathers. From that one can inference that Jesus being God and un-falable would pray perfectly. Therefore even the perfect Christian would not have all prayers answered in a positive way and it is the will of the Father that dominates. But again that is a whole different debate.